The 'value' of armour

Overfilled Cup · Post by **Overfilled Cup** » Mon Mar 20, 2006 9:07 pm

Half Orcs would face the same problem as Hins/Gnomes. What Race loving smith is going to purposefully build Orcish armors. *shrugs*

Fionn · Post by **Fionn** » Mon Mar 20, 2006 10:01 pm

Overfilled Cup wrote:Half Orcs would face the same problem as Hins/Gnomes. What Race loving smith is going to purposefully build Orcish armors. *shrugs*

err... A HORc smith? Serioiusly, you play a HOrc warrior in a PnP game and just try to find Full Plate in your size ;)

Mayhem · Post by **Mayhem** » Mon Mar 20, 2006 10:01 pm

Why single out full plate over and above any other item with a high price tag?

This is not history.

We have an adventurer run economy, supply and demand. If people are demanding full plate, smiths will make it.

(the horrors of an adventurer-centric economy in a world that has psuedo-medieval prices and wages is another debate entirely)

/plays a fighter type
/doesn't wear plate

Joos · Post by **Joos** » Mon Mar 20, 2006 11:01 pm

Magic armour, just as magic rings etc, adjusts its size after its owner. *shrugs*

And, whats so terrible if a lvl 3 fighter finally gets to own a fullplate Dorn? I mean, its not like as if its terrible easy to get to lvl 3 really. Perhaps its very easy for you since you know what spawns to hit around alfa to make the endevour easy, but for most people its quite a challange. *looks at the member counter on the front page dwindle some more*

Fionn · Post by **Fionn** » Mon Mar 20, 2006 11:26 pm

Full Plate + Tower + Dex + Dodge + ... AC 23. Add in Magic Vestment or the like, and AC25 is seriously easy without any magic. Now play a low level PC that *doesn't* have an AC like this in a world balanced for it.

This isn't such an issue in PnP where you can either assume your party will always have an AC25+ tank, or your DM will drop the BAB &/or damage. In ALFA, you end up in a world where certain people shoot up to 4th, and many others can't make 2nd.

One solution is to force all Ftr1 to aquire 'The Suit' until they hit 3rd, at which point they have enough HP to revert to a dex ftr. Another is to make it very difficult to have 'The Suit' at PC1, and balance the lowbie spawns accordingly.

dergon darkhelm · Post by **dergon darkhelm** » Mon Mar 20, 2006 11:33 pm

If people don't think that full plate should be accessible at low level then why not just address it in the wealth standards as opposed to adding a more complex method?

If you're going for balance, then adjust the standards. If you're going for realism..........well fine then. But it prolly is more of a PITA to add the realism then the immersion/balance benefit gained.

Fionn · Post by **Fionn** » Mon Mar 20, 2006 11:45 pm

For NWN2, it's not too hard to add this. I see several benefits. First off, it adds a lot of racial flavor. HOrc tanks will be as rare as they are in the books. You'll also see a serious demand for PC smiths without a system flooding the market with MW gear. You'll also have a non-magical reward that PCs will cherish.

Unless we drop healing potions to ~5GP, we'll see dead PC1, or rich PC1. It's hard to spend 100GP per battle without some ability for certain PCs to come out ahead 200GP. Decreasing drops does nothing to force PCs to use the 2 CLWs, it just means for the ones without some other income they need to wait 2 weeks IC to heal. Since it takes ~ 100 battles for a PC1 to see PC1, that's 10,000 GP spent on healing (OK, say they only use half a potion per battle - 2500). The faster I get AC22, the faster I stop paying for potions.

ç i p h é r · Post by **ç i p h é r** » Tue Mar 21, 2006 3:16 am

I like the idea. It should be applied universally though, not just for plate. Some armor types are easier to modify than others and less costly to tailor as a result.

What I really don't understand is why more challenge and realism is so badly received by many of you. The game is now at least 5 years old? NWN2 will essentially be more of the same but with nicer looks. If we don't introduce more options, details, and challenges for players to concern themselves with, what will keep them playing? Even WotC doesn't expect the D&D world to live in stagnation. They publish lots of supplementals annually which allow DMs and players alike to explore new ideas and abilities.

So add in a sprinkle of realism I say. Flavor my D&D porridge and rescue me from the shackles of boredom. Give me a dash of spice for I crave the delights of a new experience!

Overfilled Cup · Post by **Overfilled Cup** » Tue Mar 21, 2006 3:29 am

We would also need...more armor customizers both style and color ala WD. as well as the MW armorsmith to make the "fit". This would need to be available on every server or your gonna get stuck with plain armor for everyone.

I see this sort of customization as one of the backbones of NwN.

dergon darkhelm · Post by **dergon darkhelm** » Tue Mar 21, 2006 3:38 am

ç i p h é r wrote:I like the idea.
What I really don't understand is why more challenge and realism is so badly received by many of you.

I have no problem with realism or challenge.

But *realism* in a fantasy world is going to always be applied in an imperfect manner.

What I sniff from this thread is a few people's hostility to the notion of full plate armor(particularly in lower levels) and their desire to project *realism* upon it, when, given sufficient scrutiny you could make just about any component of this game system *realistic* and justify nerfing the hell out of it.

In my experience (not ALFA .....disclaimer), when one part of a fantasy world is made *realistic* it winds up raising more problems than it does improve people's sense of immersion (the primary argument given for having realism in your fantasy PW).

I would like to see efforts to create realism given towards larger scale issues (economy, travel, crafting) rather than initiating huge efforts that nibble around the edges and may produce more problems than they solve.

If it can be scripted easily in NWN2 so that PCs can seemlessly contract with a PC/NPC armorsmith to make alterations to armor in exchange for gold, then go for it.

But if PCs have to wait a few RL weeeks to find a DM willing to create a new item because their half-orc found a human set of plate mail and would like to wear it, then it's probably not a beneficial addition to the system.

In summary ..............seemlessly scripted realism OK; Player/DM effort mandated realism problematic.

Fionn · Post by **Fionn** » Tue Mar 21, 2006 4:25 am

ç i p h é r wrote:I like the idea. It should be applied universally though, not just for plate. Some armor types are easier to modify than others and less costly to tailor as a result.

Honestly, almost anyone can size padded, leather, hide, chain, or a breast plate. We may wish to put the racial tags (or better yet size catagories) on, but there should be no penalty for a non-fitted Chain Shirt. It takes about 10 minutes for anyone with an IQ over 80 to fix (though smoking enough pot to keep it below 100 helps) to cut out portions to downsize. Adding in panels doesn't take much longer. Additionally, if you wear chain, you learn to repair it. Quickly.

The only time it becomes crucial to know what you are doing is when you are trying to make a carbon-steel bodyglove. They are horridly encumbering if they don't fit right. They are almost non-existant (other than that whole inertia issue) when they are fitted correctly.

***************************

Reality aside, there is a LOT of AC0 to AC6. There is considerably less AC7 & AC8. Adding such a restriction to Plate provides a nod towards reality & immersion without forcing builders to make 3-6 copies of each armor style/color.

I certainly would open the same scripts for Tailors, Leathersmiths, Armor Builders (Chain/Brigandine/Scale) etc so that the same modifications can be done to all armors. There's just no need to *require* them.

I would support AC3 to AC6 sized tagged. This is rather an all or nothing issue unless travel is vastly harder than it is now.

Dorn · Post by **Dorn** » Tue Mar 21, 2006 5:15 am

Joos wrote:Magic armour, just as magic rings etc, adjusts its size after its owner. *shrugs*

I didn;t know that. As i said,i was just throwing an idea out there.

And, whats so terrible if a lvl 3 fighter finally gets to own a fullplate Dorn? I mean, its not like as if its terrible easy to get to lvl 3 really.

From what many people have said it's not usual for the vast majority of PCs (maybe paladin aside) to get full plate that early in most PnP. As we are trying to as closely as possible represent the PnP experience it seems reasonable enough...to me anyways. We are making a game where we can play DnD as close to PnP as reasonable right? Not a game to make surviving easy.

And level 3 is doable if you play slowly and carefully and dont just '
hit spawns'.

Perhaps its very easy for you since you know what spawns to hit around alfa to make the endevour easy, but for most people its quite a challange. *looks at the member counter on the front page dwindle some more*

Thats unfair and untrue Joos. I do not and never have constantly 'hit spawns around alfa' to get levels. The vast vast vast majority of my exp from all my characters is from DM quest and RP awards. ESPECIALLY up through the low levels. It's not the way i play.

JspecWip · Post by **JspecWip** » Tue Mar 21, 2006 5:55 am

There are alot problems with saying its easy to re-size anything from chain on down, one would need the tools and also material to do so. And I doubt you could forge rings for chainmail in a camp fire. Or tan and harden a deer hide in the time we're talking about. Or do adventurers carry around tons of mercantile supplies/tools?

This really gets down I believe to Immersion versus ease of play, there are a million things like this, food, Travel, the game clock, the list goes on and on. I think a decision for the whole project should be made, is Alfa 2 going to be a sim, or is it going to try and bring pnp play online using Nwn2. Pnp IMO is close enough to reality and going above and beyond that isn't necesary.

Also this is the classic alfa debate over limiting everyone to stop a few, or allowing some pgers so that its easier for everyone.

Why not stick with the cannon though and reign back in the heavy armours? Make them reduce your speed as per cannon and limit feats /can't use the dodge tree feats in heavy armour. This would increase immersion and limit those that have uber AC.

Once again those genious's at WOTC have the answer

Mayhem · Post by **Mayhem** » Tue Mar 21, 2006 7:56 am

Get rid of Plate armour in shops, and presumably you should also get rid of pretty much any off-the shelf non-consumable magic item.

A smith that can make plate is bound to be more common than a mage that can make a magic item, surely.

Joos · Post by **Joos** » Tue Mar 21, 2006 9:05 am

Dorn wrote:
Joos wrote:
Perhaps its very easy for you since you know what spawns to hit around alfa to make the endevour easy, but for most people its quite a challange. *looks at the member counter on the front page dwindle some more*
Thats unfair and untrue Joos. I do not and never have constantly 'hit spawns around alfa' to get levels. The vast vast vast majority of my exp from all my characters is from DM quest and RP awards. ESPECIALLY up through the low levels. It's not the way i play.

Yea, I know it was a bit unfair, but I got hugely annoyed by the fact that you started your first post in way that looked to me, as if just anyone could take their lvl 3 and full plate for granted. Which isnt the case, thus no need for more obnoxious house-rules.