Ruling: Casting while Polymorphed?

[NESchampion]

My proposed approach is as follows, I'll explain why below:

Allow spellcasting while polymorphed in the following forms: Troll, Umber Hulk, Gargoyle, and Mind Flayer.

Disallow spellcasting while polymorphed in the following forms: Blade Spider.

-----

Polymorph Self is a NWN2 spell closely related to the PnP equivalent of Polymorph (d20). Both are 4th level spells that allow for shapechanging temporarily. Polymorph (d20) states the following:

This spell functions like alter self, except that you change the willing subject into another form of living creature.

And Alter Self states:

If the new form is capable of speech, you can communicate normally. You retain any spellcasting ability you had in your original form, but the new form must be able to speak intelligibly (that is, speak a language) to use verbal components and must have limbs capable of fine manipulation to use somatic or material components.

It should therefore be allowable for polymorphed characters to continue casting spells given that they meet that criteria. In NWN2 there are five choices for the Polymorph spell, and of them only one is incapable of making such gestures and speaking I believe (blade spider). Trolls, Umber Hulks, Gargoyles and Mind Flayers are all capable of speaking languages and have limbs capable of fine manipulation (at least as fine as dragons which are also capable spellcasters).

Currently in NWN2, polymorphing hides the QuickCast menu and grays out your toolbar; however, you can still access the QuickCast menu and cast spells from it using the NWN Eye Menu in the bottom left corner of the screen. The problem here is that without a ruling this would be considered cheating, and it allows the character to cast spells in any of the polymorphed forms, of which blade spiders should not be capable of casting spells by PnP rules.

In conclusion, I'm looking for a ruling on this; it would require no work by the builders or coders to make use of the ability to cast spells while polymorphed (though a documentation change noting how and any limitations in the spell description would be beneficial).

Thoughts?

[Zelknolf]

I have objections to allowing this, given that the alternate forms have been given special abilities in an effort to "balance" the shapes against the sudden lack of spellcasting abilities. For instance

- Troll shape gets regeneration +5 (line 4: nw_it_creitem042)
- Sword Spiders get immunity to mind-affecting spells and web (line 110: nw_it_creitem007)
- Gargoyle shape comes with 10/magic DR (line 65: nw_it_creitem030)
- Mind Flayers get darkvision and SR 26. (line 68: x2_it_ creitem006), and is at least configured to grant access to mind blast (spells.2da 693) and intertial barrier (spells.2da 741). But there's variable reports on how well that works.

While I think that the ideal solution would be the UI modification that lets you use appropriate gear/ spells by shape and kept the benefits of polymorphing down to the extraordinary abilities, in the current incarnation, I would stand against polymorphed spellcasting, excepting by an umber hulk, which meet the RP requirements (they speak a language; they have hands with fingers) and aren't much more twinked than the PnP spell (except that, in PnP, you'd need to be caster level 8 to turn into an umber hulk -- then again, you should also be able to turn your 8th level fighter buddy into an umber hulk. So meh).

[mogonk]

I concur with Zelk's point. The special qualities of those forms in addition to spellcasting would make polymorph significantly more powerful than its PnP incarnation, and IMO more powerful than it should be. SR 26 as a 4th lvl spell with no drawback is broken. Fixing both would be desirable, but we should either fix both or fix neither.

[SwordSaintMusashi]

The "drawback" is it only blocks the first spell at you, due to a bug. AFter it stops a spell, the SR turns off. Just a note about the illithid form.

As for blade spider, it is a vermin. When you polymorph, you don't get the Extraordinary abilities of the new form in pnp, but you do gain thet type. And as a type, Vermin are immune to mind-effecting.

Trolls get regeneration, but do not gain their rend special ability.

I have nothing on the illithid: you shouldn't gain any of their stuff really expect the tentacles attacks and the brain-eating when you grapple. Though most of their stuff is wonky as is.

Gargoyle yeah, you shouldn't get their DR 10/magic.

[Zelknolf]

Vermin gain immunity to mind-affecting spells because they're mindless. It's like golems and oozes, but wizards don't (shouldn't!) become mindless upon turning into one.

I would also point out the obscene usefulness of regeneration, and the relative lack of usefulness of any melee attack with wizard BAB.

[Keryn]

Zelk seems quite sensible to me on this one.

[Brokenbone]

D20 Polymorph description is a long one, with a lot of terms and conditions, this one which is ignored in NWN2 is the sort of main balancer-type that I think Zelk has hit on:

"It (the subject) also gains all extraordinary special attacks possessed by the form but does not gain the extraordinary special qualities possessed by the new form or any supernatural or spell-like abilities."

The D20 alter self is also described in longhand, taking pains to point out some qualities, like regeneration, would never "come over" into the new form.

Those forms in NWN2 are rife with things that a d20 polymorph would ignore. Again, remember that "extraordinary" is different than "spell-like" or "supernatural", and that "attacks" are different than "qualities" or "abilities."

The NWN2 version is sort of a patchwork of interesting non-PnP stuff, it's arguably better than a Tenser's Transformation if you pick the right critter for the situation. That is, you become a battlemonster more or less, I don't think anyone's proposing to make say, a neutered troll form or UH form or whatever to match PnP, have to remember as well that polymorph should be to ANY form (including those that'd really just buff disguise as say, another NPC humanoid), NWN2 gives a short list of tough guy forms, adding spellcasting to the already nasty abilities doesn't seem right.

Guess a suggestion of "honor system, don't do any casting" would make sense here?

[NESchampion]

I have objections to allowing this, given that the alternate forms have been given special abilities in an effort to "balance" the shapes against the sudden lack of spellcasting abilities. For instance

- Troll shape gets regeneration +5 (line 4: nw_it_creitem042)

This does seem to be the case.

- Sword Spiders get immunity to mind-affecting spells and web (line 110: nw_it_creitem007)

Nothing about mind-spell immunity shows in the character sheet but I haven't been able to test it. Web immunity does work, but I can't find the monster entry for blade spiders; is it considered like flight is for creatures with wings?

- Gargoyle shape comes with 10/magic DR (line 65: nw_it_creitem030)

This one doesn't happen; no DR is listed and kobolds hurt a shifted Gargoyle with sling bullets and daggers.

- Mind Flayers get darkvision and SR 26. (line 68: x2_it_ creitem006), and is at least configured to grant access to mind blast (spells.2da 693) and intertial barrier (spells.2da 741). But there's variable reports on how well that works.

As SSM noted, the SR lasts for one spell and then vanishes (which is useful if that one spell happens to be powerful though); I've been unable to find access to the mind blast and inertial barrier abilities, probably disabled but left in code?

While I think that the ideal solution would be the UI modification that lets you use appropriate gear/ spells by shape and kept the benefits of polymorphing down to the extraordinary abilities, in the current incarnation, I would stand against polymorphed spellcasting, excepting by an umber hulk, which meet the RP requirements (they speak a language; they have hands with fingers) and aren't much more twinked than the PnP spell (except that, in PnP, you'd need to be caster level 8 to turn into an umber hulk -- then again, you should also be able to turn your 8th level fighter buddy into an umber hulk. So meh).

I'm loathe to seek a complete rebuild given that there are a number of more useful and urgent projects our builders and coders are and can be working on; I'll take a look around online to see if there is any existing packages to remake Polymorph so it's more in line with PnP with minimal effort from our end.

Guess a suggestion of "honor system, don't do any casting" would make sense here?

Seems likely given the all bent up nature of Polymorph Self in NWN2.

[SwordSaintMusashi]

Intelligent vermin do exist in DnD. And they keep their mind-influencing effects immunity. Its just a trait that vermin get for their type, same way as Outsiders don't need to eat, drink or sleep.

[mogonk]

Intelligent vermin do exist in DnD. And they keep their mind-influencing effects immunity. Its just a trait that vermin get for their type, same way as Outsiders don't need to eat, drink or sleep.

While there may be intelligent vermin that are immune to mind-affecting spells because of traits other than those granted by the vermin type, the trait described in the vermin type which gives immunity to mind affecting spells is "Mindless", and the description specifies that the immunity is predicated on not having an intelligence score. You do not gain Mindless as a trait when polymorphed. This is spelled out in the errata, as well as in the revision of Polymorph on page 95 of the PHB2, and also in a "Rules of the Game" clarification quoted below which may be found here: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040525a

Vermin Type

You get the following:

-- Proficient with their natural weapons only. (You don't forget what you know, but a change to vermin form doesn't get you any weapon proficiency that's not listed here.)

-- Proficient with no armor. (You don't forget what you know, but a change to vermin form doesn't get you any armor proficiency that's not listed here.)

-- Vermin breathe, eat, and sleep.

You don't get the following:

-- Mindless: No Intelligence score and immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects). (You usually keep your Intelligence score when changing forms; the baleful polymorph spell can be an exception.)

-- Darkvision out to 60 feet. (A natural ability.)

[SwordSaintMusashi]

*shakes fist at the PH2*

Well then, I stand corrected! Bladespider is borked too.

[Zelknolf]

In defense of a larger "rebuild polymorph" project, it would pave the way for many sorts of shapechanging; we'd get better lycanthropes and vampires (albeit NPC ones), alter self, better polymorph (with PnP targets -- which really helps balance classes that require too many good stats, like monks or paladins, at least in the context of a balanced party. Turn one into a troll. Win ensues.), better shapechange (though no one would can cast it; the details of that one would probably end up deferred until we saw wizards or sorcerers up in the level 16-17 range). Just because it's a project with scope doesn't mean that it's not on the table; it just means that there's a lot of stuff that would be ahead of it, and our tech team is two people.

[NESchampion]

Anyone from admin able to chime in would be great; otherwise I'll act on the assumption that casting is not allowed while polymorphed as that seems to be the intent in NWN2 even if it can be gotten around.