Class: "Expert/Aristocrat"

[t-ice]

Since there's some talk wallowing about on classes, and adding PrC in particular, here's a suggestion of two class additions I think be in demand and add significant bang for the buck. For the purposes here, I'm only describing in general terms, exact details of the abilities doesn't make or break.

A base class for the "civilized people":
Something along the NPC classes Expert and Aristocrat, this class would be about the skills. Having medium attack progression and armor wearability, but most importantly almost all skills as class, and good skill points. Perhaps only Spellcraft and Use Magic Device should not be on the class skill list. Rogues can often be made-believe to stand in, but even they don't have all appropriate skills as class, and having that sneak attack, evasion etc. on your merchant/craftsman/nobleman is rather silly. This class wouldn't be about the powah, but for those wanting to RP something abit different, focus more in politics and intrigue, or a city dweller actually having *gasp* learned something in his previous life before adventuring.

I should add here the class would also make good sense and use for creating NPCs. As such it could be a DM/builder tool perhaps more than for players, too. However, if the class is made for NPCs, I see little reason to not make it PC-viable as well?

[thinkpig]

IMO the class you're looking for is rogue. They can do just about anything, get butt-loads of skill points, and since they aren't fighters or casters they look for clever ways they can be effective in combat-- amounting to sneak attack even if they're not really sneaky types-- just thoughtful combatants.

If you're looking to trade the sneak attack for like... skill-based feats or something... that's the only thing I can think of that would make it more along the lines of what you're describing, but to my eyes adding something like that would be broken unless as a PrC, which I guess is what you're suggesting.

I would do a rogue that gets bonus feats of skill focus or +2/two skills feats in place of sneak attack as a PrC 'expert' maybe.

I still don't really feel that it's necessary though.

Just opinions here, I don't feel too strongly one way or the other.

[t-ice]

As largely NPC class, it's not even supposed to be balanced for adenturer power, so no need for bonus skill focus, or any other, feats.

The idea is to plug those few holes the rogue has in skill selection, and to have profiency in heavy(er) armors and martial weapons. Like Aristocrat. It would actually make sense to have NPCs that can be clad for protection, but are useless at attacking things. In PnP even commoners can wear any armor, as you just take attack penalty for non-proficient armor, but the defense is the same.

The chance for PCs to take the class is a bonus. Instead of that kick-ass adventurer, perhaps someone likes, for example, to play the guy who hires those kick-ass adventurers to go along, and DMs can then help in that. While that idea is feasible with a rogue/fighter, I suppose, easing the balance of "authority = levels = personal fighting power" could have heavy immersion benefits.

[Veilan]

While I understand the appeal, as it is a very generic and somewhat broadening class, I do not think the justification of NPC class is really convincing. All I see right now is an able-learner skill progression enabler with little point to take in itself for a PC. The odd RP you mention can, as you state, be simulated perfectly as is (and is in fact being done in game by some PCs), or even better, be solved by signing up to DM.

What is the unique selling proposition? What does it have that PCs want that they cannot get yet, and that we want them to have?

[t-ice]

Interesting point I didn't know on Able Learner, now that it's brought up:
http://nwn2.wikia.com/wiki/Able_Learner

NWN2 does consider all the character's classes when determining the maximum skill rank for a skill, which means that for multi-classed characters if a skill is a class skill for any of their classes the maximum ranks are calculated as though the skill is a class skill.

... and that's how it should be by SRD:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/multiclass.htm

Which means that Able Learner rogue/ranger/bard would have all skills as class every level.

So, yeah. It'd still be useful as an NPC, though.

[kmj2587]

So let me get this straight... you're looking for a base class that's 6+ int skill points/level, medium BAB, d8 HD, one strong save (will), begins with proficiency in all armors along with simple and martial weapons and has all skills as class skills? All you're really doing combining these two is adding more skills and skill points to your aristocrat, or expanding the equipment proficiencies and HP of your expert.

I understand your desire to avoid sneak attack or musical abilities with the rogue and bard, but they are typically the go to classes for "politics and intrigue". Frankly, given similar players, either of those classes is going to walk circles around the class proposed above, the rogue because he'll have more skills to apply to the task, and the bard because they'll have illusions and enchantments to help them. I understand that this class wouldn't be about the power, but if you're going to sacrifice combat prowess for politics and intrigue, you should at least be good at it.

If you really want to sacrifice power for a character with social graces and skills, the most obvious comparison to me is to compare this theoretical class with a multiclassed rogue/bard. If the character starts with a rogue level, they get an 8 point advantage in skills immediately, 5 of which can be held over until the first bard level. In addition, beyond level 1 the character averages 7+int skill points per level, further expanding the skill advantage as it levels. Between the two classes the character would have access to every single skill in the SRD except Handle Animal as a class skill. It would also get a bit of the bard's spellcasting which could be helpful. While this kind of character is by no means terribly powerful, the inspirations from the bard class, as well as the trapfinding, evasion and uncanny dodge (if only it weren't broken) from the rogue class all help survivability compared to this expert/aristocrat. The only thing the expert/aristocrat has that the rogue/bard doesn't is martial weapon proficiency as well as shield and all armor proficiencies, which brings me to my next point...

If your intent is to make a knightly aristocratic character while avoiding the paladin class because of its religiosity, this niche can also be filled with existing classes. I've seen this concept portrayed extremely well before by a rogue/fighter multiclass. The character's abilities were distributed largely like a paladin's, but with intelligence substituting for the usual wisdom score a paladin has. The character wore heavy armor and used a shield. The Sneak Attack ability is easily played as a particular form of combat training designed to take full advantage of flanking your opponent. If you start with rogue for the initial boost to skills and play level 1 like you're still completing your combat training until you can enter the fighter class at level 2, it works out nicely. I think the only skill an aristocratic character would be interested in that this build wouldn't have would be knowledge (nobility and heraldry), but honestly, having to take a skill cross class certainly doesn't prevent someone from RPing a concept. It works out to have the same HP that the class above would (Expected Value of a d6 and a d10 = 3.5 + 5.5 = 4.5*2 = 9), and ends up with two good saves and one abyssmal one instead one strong and two weak.

Don't get me wrong, if someone is really dedicated to this idea and wants to include it, I'd vote for it. If nerfing themselves for some RP reason is what makes people happy, they can have at it. At the same time, I think the people who are willing to nerf themselves for RP reasons are the people we should try to avoid nerfing.