Where are you getting that 33% from? Heavy armor does NOT reduce movement speed by 33%. It reduces it by a flat 10 feet in pnp. In NWN2, movement speed was adjusted to percentages and not feet. So Barbarians run 10% faster instead of 10 feet faster, and thus, heavy armor would be reduced 10% instead of 10 feet.Ithildur wrote:(*gasp* well, I guess it's more tolerable than the correct 33% penalty...)
Speeds and armor
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Re: Speeds and armor
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Re: Speeds and armor
SwordSaintMusashi wrote:Where are you getting that 33% from? Heavy armor does NOT reduce movement speed by 33%. It reduces it by a flat 10 feet in pnp. In NWN2, movement speed was adjusted to percentages and not feet. So Barbarians run 10% faster instead of 10 feet faster, and thus, heavy armor would be reduced 10% instead of 10 feet.Ithildur wrote:(*gasp* well, I guess it's more tolerable than the correct 33% penalty...)
Feel free to correct any incorrect math.

Per RAW heavy/medium armor does not simply reduce movement by flat 10 feet. It's flat max speed of 20 foot base movement for heavy armor (unless you have a slower base movement to start with, in which case you are reduced even further from, say 20 feet to 15 feet, sole exception being dwarves etc). Unless you are hasted, etc base speed is reduced to 20 feet from 30 feet. So I'm looking at 20 foot vs 30 foot base movement - effectively without taking into account racial/size speed it's one third (33%) off the speed of the light armored guy's base speed (10/30).
*takes a deep breath*
Now if some insist we need to get all the racial/size adjustments in as well, I'm fairly ambivalent. A flat mild mannered 10% reduction (which honestly is getting off light, no pun intended) say for heavy armor, means everyone in heavy armor is slowed down that much. True, halflings per RAW should get slowed down slightly more at the end of the day, but imo 10% reduction gets the job done, because the main priority imo is addressing heavy/medium/light armor balance, NOT movement for movement's sake.* If we can indeed fix the whole shabang, that'd be interesting and perhaps desirable (I somehow doubt we'd hear as much outcry from folks that play halflings as I'm seeing here from the heavy armor folks), but what's glaringly imbalanced to me is not halfling speed vs human speed so much as heavy vs med vs light armor. Sure halflings and dwarves being able to outrun orcs in leather is not exactly correct but that's ONE element that's incorrect; heavy/medium/light armor has MULTIPLE issues that are throwing the balance out of wack, with movement rate being perhaps the most obvious and practically addressable one.
If we can get the 10/5% reduction first, then work on addressing the dream of racial/size speed across the board at some point down the road, that's grand; the main thing is that armor balance is more urgently broken atm than racial speed.
And I swear, I thought that nwn2 did fix things so that halflings/gnomes at least (probably not dwarves) are already moving slightly slower than humans/elves...
*Also consider that halflings/gnomes/etc are actually losing only 5 feet off of their correct base unarmored/light armor speed, ie 15 vs 20feet, or about a 16% reduction for wearing heavy/medium armor; effectively they are penalized less for wearing heavy/med armor than big folk, so a 10% reduction for all seems a reasonable compromise, unless anyone feels that the 100% literal reductions of 33% for humans/elves/halfers/dwarves and 50% reduction for hin/gnomes is a better choice?
Formerly: Aglaril Shaelara, Faerun's unlikeliest Bladesinger
Current main: Ky - something
It’s not the critic who counts...The credit belongs to the man who actually is in the arena, who strives violently, who errs and comes up short again and again...who if he wins, knows the triumph of high achievement, but who if he fails, fails while daring greatly.-T. Roosevelt
Current main: Ky - something
It’s not the critic who counts...The credit belongs to the man who actually is in the arena, who strives violently, who errs and comes up short again and again...who if he wins, knows the triumph of high achievement, but who if he fails, fails while daring greatly.-T. Roosevelt
Re: Speeds and armor
+1oldgrayrogue wrote:Sorry, I just don't really see how these speed reductions are worth the effort or add to the game experience. I continue to believe that if light armor wearers are being denied their AC, dodge and other bonuses etc (as described by Ithildur) we should just try to address that. This seems a backward way to address that issue that does nothing to improve the experience of light or no armor wearers, and will simply serve to increase lethality, especially for low level melee builds. Any change that increases lethality at beginning level is counterproductive in my view.
As to the rest of the thread... TLDR
Seriously.
---Elsewhere---
Re: Speeds and armor
Tdlr? I say fix it if its fixable dont modify the engine more unless you absolutely must or it makes things better in some way. Maybe you could give no armor or light armor wearers a bonus to speed but no penalty to the heavy wearers.And to some of the critters as well (Wolves and cats are fast but maybe decrease the occurence of wolves etc?)
Re: Speeds and armor
You're absolutely correct of coarse...my bad mate. Removing myself from further posting here, I've said all I need to say I think, weather it is taken into consideration is beyond my control. At the very least all sides of the issue have been discussed and weighed, which is what brainstorming SHOULD be about.Dorn wrote:piss off swift/danSwift wrote:This is ALFA, people love to focus on sh*t we dont need, rather than sh*t we dodanielmn wrote:( You'd think getting new creatures in would be way more important than discussing the merits of fixing obsidian's borked system by implementing speed change.....but here we are....). get in touch with zic and create a 'place-for-ideas-only-vetted-by-admin-as-well-as-swift-and-dan-before-raising-a-point" thread to replace the "brainstorming" one
btw, i see no reason for new creatures. so you're 'need' is subjective.
i'm sure there's enough creatures existing in the tset to kill any PC. While one or two PCs may be high level enough (especially as their encased in heavy armor with no penalty so they can always run away after engaging without consequence) to beat down any static spawn, i'm sure DMs can create enough things to challenge a PC. the vast majority of ALFA PCs still have a lot of creatures yet to face so I personally dont know if this is a major problem. Certainly i havn't seen thread after thread clamoring for it.
In fact. I think i've seen more posts about having certain skimpy outfits added through haks than i have about extra monsters. But i could be wrong.![]()
So please disagree the the idea.
But dont start getting all high and mighty about what I, or others, should raise in a brainstorming thread or not.
oh yea......""
I will say, I take slight offence at some people accusing my speaking up to be a subjective thing. My PC does wear heavy armour, but guess what...if you apply the proposed change IG that slows those that wear heavy/medium armour, my own PC wouldn't even be affected, as dwarves can travel at normal speeds even in medium and heavy armour, and are the only canon race to be able to do so. The change wouldn't affect my PC one iota, beyond the fact that he could no longer run, which my PC isn't able to do most of the time now anyway, and that fact doesn't really concern me. (I'll still be faster at a walk than most of you mooks



Zyrus Meynolt: [Party] For the record, if this somehow blows up in our faces and I die, I want a raiseSwift wrote: Permadeath is only permadeath when the PCs wallet is empty.
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Re: Speeds and armor
*sighs* Well I thought I was done....until I recalled something.
The skill Jump requires a runnung start of at least 20 feet. Now, I already have a -6 to the skill since dwarves move 20 feet instead of 30 feet....and I've pumped the heck out of this particular skill as well as spent 2,500 coin on a ring that modifies the skill. But if heavy armour wearers can no longer run, I guess that means when any jumping is to be done, my PC will now also have to spend 10 minutes taking off his armour, load all of the armour to his pack of endless room (cause a pack can hold a set of full plate, right everyone?) try the jump, and then put the armour back on afterward, correct? I guess that makes more sense than trying a jump in full plate, just wondering what others thought... I wonder how full plate also effects the climb skill, as I've pushed a lot of points into that as well....are we to be allowed at least a 20 feet distance of running under the proposal, or no?
The skill Jump requires a runnung start of at least 20 feet. Now, I already have a -6 to the skill since dwarves move 20 feet instead of 30 feet....and I've pumped the heck out of this particular skill as well as spent 2,500 coin on a ring that modifies the skill. But if heavy armour wearers can no longer run, I guess that means when any jumping is to be done, my PC will now also have to spend 10 minutes taking off his armour, load all of the armour to his pack of endless room (cause a pack can hold a set of full plate, right everyone?) try the jump, and then put the armour back on afterward, correct? I guess that makes more sense than trying a jump in full plate, just wondering what others thought... I wonder how full plate also effects the climb skill, as I've pushed a lot of points into that as well....are we to be allowed at least a 20 feet distance of running under the proposal, or no?
Zyrus Meynolt: [Party] For the record, if this somehow blows up in our faces and I die, I want a raiseSwift wrote: Permadeath is only permadeath when the PCs wallet is empty.
<Castano>: danielnm - can you blame them?
<danielmn>: Yes,
<danielmn>: Easily.
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Re: Speeds and armor
Dan, stumpy legged dwarves in full plate just do not become leapers and bounders and high jumpers, agile climbers, and olympic swimmers, etc. Guys who wear full plate (regardless of race) take off their armor and put away their shields before doing that stuff, or they get mithral plate, which I'm sure your guy can get access to. 
And as we discussed earlier ingame, they CAN run, just slower than someone with long legs wearing light or no armor. With enough strength, skill ranks, and armor off, THEN they can do such atheletic feats, albeit with small penalties to jumping with a running start (jumping without running start is an option btw if one is athletic enough) due to their racial characteristics. I'm sure they're excellent swimmers however once out of armor, with fighter's str, class skill, and high con. Pretty good climbers too, especially if they're using pitons, ropes, pulleys and such.
Come on now, we know dwarves are rather supermen-like in 3.5, but they can't do EVERYTHING as good as everyone else, it just wouldn't be fair.
[edit] Also Dan, keep in mind, a dwarf in full plate attempting a jump has no further penalties than a human in full plate attempting a jump; they're both at 20 feet movement.
And actually, I would love to see Garlus pull off an unbelievable jump IN FULL PLATE with the ring and the ranks you've invested offsetting the acp somewhat, and then getting a super high roll. It'd be straight out of LOTR where Gimli says, "No one's tossing this dwarf!" And makes (barely) the jump across the chasm in Moria!
I wouldn't recommend trying to make it a signature move though... at least not in non mithral plate... XD

And as we discussed earlier ingame, they CAN run, just slower than someone with long legs wearing light or no armor. With enough strength, skill ranks, and armor off, THEN they can do such atheletic feats, albeit with small penalties to jumping with a running start (jumping without running start is an option btw if one is athletic enough) due to their racial characteristics. I'm sure they're excellent swimmers however once out of armor, with fighter's str, class skill, and high con. Pretty good climbers too, especially if they're using pitons, ropes, pulleys and such.
Come on now, we know dwarves are rather supermen-like in 3.5, but they can't do EVERYTHING as good as everyone else, it just wouldn't be fair.

[edit] Also Dan, keep in mind, a dwarf in full plate attempting a jump has no further penalties than a human in full plate attempting a jump; they're both at 20 feet movement.
And actually, I would love to see Garlus pull off an unbelievable jump IN FULL PLATE with the ring and the ranks you've invested offsetting the acp somewhat, and then getting a super high roll. It'd be straight out of LOTR where Gimli says, "No one's tossing this dwarf!" And makes (barely) the jump across the chasm in Moria!

I wouldn't recommend trying to make it a signature move though... at least not in non mithral plate... XD
Formerly: Aglaril Shaelara, Faerun's unlikeliest Bladesinger
Current main: Ky - something
It’s not the critic who counts...The credit belongs to the man who actually is in the arena, who strives violently, who errs and comes up short again and again...who if he wins, knows the triumph of high achievement, but who if he fails, fails while daring greatly.-T. Roosevelt
Current main: Ky - something
It’s not the critic who counts...The credit belongs to the man who actually is in the arena, who strives violently, who errs and comes up short again and again...who if he wins, knows the triumph of high achievement, but who if he fails, fails while daring greatly.-T. Roosevelt
Re: Speeds and armor
HAHAHAHA!!!!
Swimming....As if a dwarf would deign to learn how to even do that.
I don't expect EVERY dwarf to be as good at climbing (I mean, dwarves don't really need or use the climbing skill, they only live in the MOUNTAINS) as those 50 foot tree climbing elves, or those humans that scale the masts on their ships. Those small hills the dwarves live under and in don't compare in that size one bit.
Now Jump, I completely agree with. Longer legs just equals longer distance, plain physics. (And no, he'll not be outjumping any light/medium armour wearers anytime soon, I think he still has a -3 with armour and shield, so something has to give for a good role, usually the shield)
Swimming....As if a dwarf would deign to learn how to even do that.
I don't expect EVERY dwarf to be as good at climbing (I mean, dwarves don't really need or use the climbing skill, they only live in the MOUNTAINS) as those 50 foot tree climbing elves, or those humans that scale the masts on their ships. Those small hills the dwarves live under and in don't compare in that size one bit.

Now Jump, I completely agree with. Longer legs just equals longer distance, plain physics. (And no, he'll not be outjumping any light/medium armour wearers anytime soon, I think he still has a -3 with armour and shield, so something has to give for a good role, usually the shield)
Zyrus Meynolt: [Party] For the record, if this somehow blows up in our faces and I die, I want a raiseSwift wrote: Permadeath is only permadeath when the PCs wallet is empty.
<Castano>: danielnm - can you blame them?
<danielmn>: Yes,
<danielmn>: Easily.
"And in this twilight....our choices seal our fate"
Re: Speeds and armor
As an aside, Berendil knows Garlus in character as the amazing jumping dorf. I've seen him leap chasms and rivers in a single bound, beard waving in the air with a loud 'HAH!' as he flies, platemail tower shield and all.
It's already a signature move as far as I'm concerned
It's already a signature move as far as I'm concerned
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Re: Speeds and armor
As someone who's had her character saved BARELY by escaping via running into others and such while enemies that were spawned for a DM event she literally randomly chanced into and were higher level than the area she was in, I'm not particurly interested in speed changes.
Yes, I know that not PnP core-wise.
Permadeath and the relatively slow progress that takes place here (compared to many places) make it, in my opinion, a bad deal. There's already a lot of "great concept what gets hit with a lucky shot and dies" out there, even while in groups. To have that one more thing looming over my character would just make it not worthwhile to ever leave Silverymoon. I know that "real" people would just avoid the danger to begin with, but this is a game. I'm not supposed to have totake into account every RL possibilty anyways.
Yes, I know that not PnP core-wise.
Permadeath and the relatively slow progress that takes place here (compared to many places) make it, in my opinion, a bad deal. There's already a lot of "great concept what gets hit with a lucky shot and dies" out there, even while in groups. To have that one more thing looming over my character would just make it not worthwhile to ever leave Silverymoon. I know that "real" people would just avoid the danger to begin with, but this is a game. I'm not supposed to have totake into account every RL possibilty anyways.
"This is why I wear a metal suit. Not that I have nads perse..."
Current Character: Jendari Telasa, Battlepriest of Tempus
Current Character: Jendari Telasa, Battlepriest of Tempus
Re: Speeds and armor
May I suggest moving on to a more productive topic like say, how to fix invisibility or any other of the game breaking bugs we are facing.
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Re: Speeds and armor
I don't want my great concept toon to die a permadeath either but that in itself is not a valid basis for rejecting suggested corrections.randomrper wrote:As someone who's had her character saved BARELY by escaping via running into others and such while enemies that were spawned for a DM event she literally randomly chanced into and were higher level than the area she was in, I'm not particurly interested in speed changes.
Yes, I know that not PnP core-wise.
Permadeath and the relatively slow progress that takes place here (compared to many places) make it, in my opinion, a bad deal. There's already a lot of "great concept what gets hit with a lucky shot and dies" out there, even while in groups. To have that one more thing looming over my character would just make it not worthwhile to ever leave Silverymoon. I know that "real" people would just avoid the danger to begin with, but this is a game. I'm not supposed to have totake into account every RL possibilty anyways.

My pc died over the weekend and I'm considering going back to a full plate character at some point, but I'd still support this idea. Why?
Per RAW:
Attempting to escape via double move withdraw with fullplate = 40feet/round
Double move with leather armor = 60 feet/round
Full run with fullplate = 60 feet/round (heavy armor run speed at x3, not x4)
Full run with leather armor = 120 feet/round
Summary: it's painfully obvious what would happen if a full plater tried to run away from a leather armored foe, or vice versa. No contest.
You put that up against vanilla NWN2, both are at same speed. This is where it becomes glaringly obvious what a huge freebie heavy (and medium to a lessor extent) get in NWN2. Add to this how the game engine hates anyone with decent Dex by how it handles being flatfooted and the broken uncanny dodge feat, that's why some of us think this merits discussion.
Having said that, no one is stopping anyone from freely posting other, perhaps more pertinent brainstorm idea threads (such as how do we get more DMs and players ingame), or simply ignoring this thread if they feel this one is a waste of time.

Formerly: Aglaril Shaelara, Faerun's unlikeliest Bladesinger
Current main: Ky - something
It’s not the critic who counts...The credit belongs to the man who actually is in the arena, who strives violently, who errs and comes up short again and again...who if he wins, knows the triumph of high achievement, but who if he fails, fails while daring greatly.-T. Roosevelt
Current main: Ky - something
It’s not the critic who counts...The credit belongs to the man who actually is in the arena, who strives violently, who errs and comes up short again and again...who if he wins, knows the triumph of high achievement, but who if he fails, fails while daring greatly.-T. Roosevelt
Re: Speeds and armor
As a player of a platemail tank I had to work this over in my head a bit. I do not want to be one of those people who push only for 'balance' when it favors my character, but I also do not want one class focused upon and nerfed in the name of balance that is really going to unbalance things
I agree heavy armor should slow some folks down, but I also do not agree that a person with a twenty STR should have to slow down because he has a suit of metal even distributed over his body that is only a tiny fraction of the characters carrying capacity. A large backpack hanging all of its weight behind you is more cumbersome than that same amount of weight spread evenly over their body. I Can carry 100lbs of gear in my backpack and run with it... but when I have HALF that in armor I am required to crawl?
Even given my doubts, I know it is PnP rules... but so are spell components. I would agree that it is time to add these movement rates into the game if and when we worry about bringing all the classes into balance with PnP. Meaning that all spellcasters would need to worry about the money each and every time a spell was cast.
We can not 'balance' one set of characters to PnP and let another group slide, and really this conversation is more about PnP balance than about the specifics of movement and armor.
J
I agree heavy armor should slow some folks down, but I also do not agree that a person with a twenty STR should have to slow down because he has a suit of metal even distributed over his body that is only a tiny fraction of the characters carrying capacity. A large backpack hanging all of its weight behind you is more cumbersome than that same amount of weight spread evenly over their body. I Can carry 100lbs of gear in my backpack and run with it... but when I have HALF that in armor I am required to crawl?
Even given my doubts, I know it is PnP rules... but so are spell components. I would agree that it is time to add these movement rates into the game if and when we worry about bringing all the classes into balance with PnP. Meaning that all spellcasters would need to worry about the money each and every time a spell was cast.
We can not 'balance' one set of characters to PnP and let another group slide, and really this conversation is more about PnP balance than about the specifics of movement and armor.
J
Re: Speeds and armor
As a side note Mr D, the spell components and focii for ALL clerical spells have been tooled, and sit on the ftp until such time as someone comes along and makes the mage/sorc spell components and focii. Then they can all be introduced at once...but at least the clerical half of everything is done.
Zyrus Meynolt: [Party] For the record, if this somehow blows up in our faces and I die, I want a raiseSwift wrote: Permadeath is only permadeath when the PCs wallet is empty.
<Castano>: danielnm - can you blame them?
<danielmn>: Yes,
<danielmn>: Easily.
"And in this twilight....our choices seal our fate"
Re: Speeds and armor
Really? How would that work with things that cost a fraction of a gold coin to buy? will it just be like ale and suffer heavy inflation? Are the scripts and everything all worked out? And I am really off topic - how dare you, Daniel!danielmn wrote:As a side note Mr D, the spell components and focii for ALL clerical spells have been tooled, and sit on the ftp until such time as someone comes along and makes the mage/sorc spell components and focii. Then they can all be introduced at once...but at least the clerical half of everything is done.
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