NON-ECL Drow and Duergar, oh my!

Ideas and suggestions for game mechanics and rules.
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Re: NON-ECL Drow and Duergar, oh my!

Post by Ebonith »

Again, if it were to be done, it would be an option, not the rule. In other words, it would be a choice for players who do not want the ECL. If a player wants the ECL, play the drow as designed. The "drow-lite", as it were, would not be meant to take the place of the ECL drow, but an option for drow players. Want to RP a drow and don't want to loose the "mystique"? Play the ECL version. Want to RP a drow without running the leveling treadmill of leveling an ECL +2 race and you are a casual player? Play the "drow-lite".

This is something I would like to see on Skullport as an option for my playerbase since the common races are the ECL races. If the man-hours are to be had to incorporate it, that is...

Just my $0.06.

Of course, I think we have beaten this thread like a dead rothe. Let the powers that be decide at this point. :)
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Re: NON-ECL Drow and Duergar, oh my!

Post by Mikayla »

Hello all.

Sorry to resurrect a thread gone by many weeks, but I've not been around ALFA's boards in forever. Someone sent me a PM and I got an automated notice in email. So I stopped by.

With regards to the option being put forward, here is the problem I see (and lets dispense with the arguments about it being non-canon): The problem lies in the internal dynamics of the drow party. The drow party is internally competitive, and quite hostile. During my 4 years or so of playing Sheyreiza I killed numerous player characters - I didn't kill elves or humans or dwarves, but other drow. Thats the nature of drow as potrayed in the forgotten realms. Though there was some grumbling (Burt) everyone (Burt included) accepted that this is the way of the drow.

So ... what has that to do with "drow lite"? Well, those who chose the "drow lite" option are going to advance in level MUCH faster than those that choose the "drow classic" option. And very quickly, the drow-lite will dominate the drow-classic because ECL/LA approximations aside, levels are greater than racial powers. The drow-lite will then get to kill/push-around/order the supposedly "high-born" drow because of their level difference. In short, the drow-lite "option" will become the only really viable option given the power differences between levels and racial abilities, and the murderously competitive nature of drow society when role-played well (which most of ALFA's drow "fanatics" do). Drow society is designed (in theory) to weed out the weak, and since levels are greater than racial abilities, a well role-played drow party will weed out the drow-classic in favor of the drow-lite.

In sum, its a false option - it is, instead, the death knell of real 3/3.5 ed drow in favor of dark-skinned elves (drow-lite). Accordingly, I am against the option for what that is worth (which I suspect, is next to nothing). Ciao.
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Re: NON-ECL Drow and Duergar, oh my!

Post by Ebonith »

To me, it boils down to effort and time that is needed to incorporate it. If it is too much of a pain in the rear and will take time away from scripting that could be done in other much needed areas, it simply it is not a viable idea until that time frees up.

As for the idea's lore and advancement rate, it certainly has a place in Skullport.

Admin has made it clear that it will be a significant undertaking, so it certainly makes sense to table the idea. Thanks for all the feedback!
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Re: NON-ECL Drow and Duergar, oh my!

Post by Xityar »

I think its important to think about how Underdark is supposed to be an entierly different climate to live in. I hope I don't step on any toes when I go on about this :)

ECL has never really worked well, and it is indeed tempting to allow for "drow-lite". Primarily for the reason that perhaps more players might try out the race. Also the pain of going through 2000 more xp compared to most other characters makes it even more pleasant to think about. Most wouldmprobably agree that more players is a good thing, I do so myself at least.

But as I said I think it important to think of the whole drow concept ->

As I see it, Drow would be best of to (read supposed to) start in a drow environment, they gain their first few levels down in the dark, adjusting to life as it is down there. This means that ECL "life" is standard in the underdark, and hence, the areas/spawns/tasks are modelled thereafter. (Or should be!)

What I am getting at, is simply that, life in the underdark is supposed to be harder. And harder = more xp, which levels out the fact that it takes more XP to level. the downside is of course that it is even more difficult to survive in the underdark... Which is what the underdark is all about anyway.. isn't it? So it's win-win.

So if the underdark, and ECL drow were a fact, and the "drow-lite" were introduced, we do indeed get the problem Mikayla mentioned above. Regardless how the xp rates would be set, non-ecl drow would fit in like a gun in a knifefight.

Of course one might say that other non-ECL races might reach the underdark too and upset the balance. Well to that I say they are meant to! There is supposed to be an imbalance between the two "worlds", the crucial point is that they would be outsiders.

I would imagine that the gameplay reason for the light sensitvity adjustment to the drow was becasue of this issue, that when a drow ventured to the surface they got nerfed since they would otherwise overpower almost anything they met.

For surfacers going down in the underdark, they are instead overwhelmed by the resistance and toughness by life there, this is not so much a problem if you go down there, you face higher risks. The problem only occurs for Drow going up to the "easy-life", that's why they have surface penalties, as I already mentioned

With this in mind, I echo Mikayla's opinion. non-ecl drow would stray from the concept of the underdark, and upset the balance within drow society. The supposed benefit of more easily played drow would come at the cost of upsetting game mechanics that have their roots in canon... Or so I'm bold enough to say at least. :P

If players want to play drow the easy way, There could be an answer however. I've seen various way to nerf drows coming to the surface, for above mentioned reasons. It would seem fitting then that, a section of surface drow might be applicable, or rather Renegade drow. While this category is the very one which is KOS in many instances, they have at least a precense in ALFA history and a much hated canon figure with dual scimitars :P

Anyway what I would suggest is a full removal of the drow powers, and perhaps that new "light adjustment" feat which removes the light penalties, this would essentially make them fall into the surfacers category. They would start on the topside world, and suffer the stigma of their racial background, without upsetting the balance.

Furthermore, in order to balance things out I would suggest that ECL-drow, or rather underdark drow, be free to play. while the ecl- free surface drow should be applied for. This fits in well since the primary reason why drow is not approved at the moment is simply becase the servers have no underdark sections and no drow support. This question would then instead be twofold. do they have an underdark? if yes, then drow is a free choice. If not, they may apply for a surface drow.

The downside to this, would be in the drow reputation as, weaker versions would create an image that "all" drow are this weak. If that is okay is a question I'd rather put to vote.

With all that said, I kind of lost the original point of having "drow-lite" to gain more players. if drow-lite would require an additional application porcess it's a fair guess that new players will be held off anyway. So perhaps the whole issue is moot.

If there are not a fair number of players who want to play drow-lite then I say this is all a waste of time. although I stand by all my suggetions herein and I think that they would serve the community well.
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Re: NON-ECL Drow and Duergar, oh my!

Post by Faeryl »

We will not be implementing the "drow lite" for the very reasons that Mik brought up.
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Re: NON-ECL Drow and Duergar, oh my!

Post by Aelred »

Lloth tlu bel'la! Ilythiiri nau tlu yibin!
(Lolth be praised! Drow are not "lite"!)
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Re: NON-ECL Drow and Duergar, oh my!

Post by Mikayla »

Thanks Faeryl. I have recently returned to ALFA after a long hiatus and I am, gasp, playing a Drow. And though it is going to be another 5,800+ experience points before I go from having 6 hitpoints to having 12 hitpoints, I would rather have it that way than end up playing a black-skinned copy of a surface elf. Not that you won't hear me whining from time to time about the fact that it will take me the rest of my natural life as a real-world human being to reach level 2 as a drow in ALFA, but so be it. I'll be a REAL drow. So there! :twisted:
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Re: NON-ECL Drow and Duergar, oh my!

Post by Rotku »

I was under the impression that we had decided that months ago, but can't seem to find the post...
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Re: NON-ECL Drow and Duergar, oh my!

Post by Faeryl »

Rotku wrote:I was under the impression that we had decided that months ago, but can't seem to find the post...
I'm sure you're right Rot, but Xityar resurrected this thread with a really long post, so I thought I should clarify before the discussion started all over again. 8)
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Re: NON-ECL Drow and Duergar, oh my!

Post by Xityar »

Well I only put my word in cause it seemed like it was an open discussion :P

In any case Im happy if they left them alone ^^
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Re: NON-ECL Drow and Duergar, oh my!

Post by Rotku »

Faeryl wrote:
Rotku wrote:I was under the impression that we had decided that months ago, but can't seem to find the post...
I'm sure you're right Rot, but Xityar resurrected this thread with a really long post, so I thought I should clarify before the discussion started all over again. 8)
Yeah, that's fine Faeryl. Merely my curiousity at work there - that and posting my thoughts which probably should have stayed in my head.
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