[14:21] <dergon_IRC> k
[14:21] <Rusty> OK, so. WElcome, thank you for turning up, esp those who've got up early/stayed up late/
[14:21] * AcadiusLost|z is now known as AcadiusLost
[14:22] <Rusty> What we'll do, for those who haven't had the luck to attend one of these before, is go through everyone and give them the change to tell us where there respective bits of out NWN2 work stand.
[14:22] <Rusty> Cipher, do you want to kick off, with AL, on our central stuff?
[14:23] <Rusty> He's still swearing at the toolset. ^^
[14:24] <AcadiusLost> If that works best, I can ramble a bit, but haven't organized my thoughts much yet
[14:24] <Rusty> OK, how about we leave central till Ciph is back and instead get local updates.
[14:24] * AcadiusLost seconds
[14:24] <Rusty> So, Rick, how is TSF, what's your schedule looking like, and what do you need from everyone else?
[14:25] <Rick7475> It is looking good. I am connecting Silverymoon to Rivermoot with Highway areas ATM
[14:25] <Rick7475> One more Highway to go
[14:25] <Rick7475> Then finish up on interiors
[14:25] <Rick7475> I could use more interior builders
[14:26] <Rusty> Interior builders should be easier to find, no?
[14:26] <Rusty> Little less adaption from Aurora needed.
[14:26] <Rick7475> Beta 2 will be the corridor from Rivermoot to Silverymoon and south to Silverwood
[14:27] <Rick7475> Yeah, interiors such as shops, taverns, some temples
[14:27] <Rick7475> Most would be a day or two work
[14:27] <Cipher> whoops
[14:27] <AcadiusLost> one recommendation was to get prefab'd ones off the vault and rearrange them when the creativity starts to wane
[14:27] <Rick7475> Like a Mage shop, NPC, dialog, interio, would be quick
[14:28] <AcadiusLost> for the nuts and bolts at least
[14:28] <Rick7475> I can post a list on the boards of what I need, see if it garners any more volunteers
[14:28] <Rusty> *nods* Might also be time to do a last shakedown of everyone who has previously suggested some kind of building interest...
[14:28] <Rusty> what rick said
[14:29] <Rusty> On the grounds that (a) goal near being reached (b) interiors a lot easier
[14:29] <Rusty> What's the current status on the TSF Quests?
[14:29] * AcadiusLost has 3 questions, but can save them till the rundown is finished
[14:30] <Cipher> I think they're on hold until we can retrofit with ACR.
[14:30] <Cipher> But...Rick can confirm.
[14:30] <Rusty> Rick?
[14:30] <AcadiusLost> Indio's started retrofitting the old ones already
[14:30] <Rick7475> Indio said that he can update all his quests with an erf
[14:30] <Rick7475> But the quests he put in all work
[14:30] <Rusty> OK, so retrofitting is in process.
[14:30] <AcadiusLost> but yes, I believe that's still a bit of a snagged point
[14:31] <Cipher> I saw his comments on the forums this morning. I hope he hasn't pulled out his hair over any of it.
[14:31] <Cipher> If he comes on, I can talk him through it.
[14:31] <Rick7475> Of course, I'll be adding more quests in Silvermoon and other areas
[14:32] <Rusty> Indio was consideirng staying up to attend this meeting - said so yesterday
[14:32] <Rusty> But I think he's morelikely to be at tomorrows, which is Oz friendly
[14:33] <Cipher> K
[14:33] <Rusty> Alright, other than quests, is there anything else you need, Rick?
[14:33] <Rick7475> just interoirs right now
[14:33] <Rusty> OK, I have a couple of points.
[14:34] <Rick7475> I can do em, but it will be quicker if I had help
[14:34] <Rusty> First - DMs. See you've managed to get some interested DMs, which is good. I also got an App from someone else to DM on TSF the other day
[14:34] <Rusty> (first person to use hialmar's funky new auto app system)
[14:34] <Rusty> But he's new to ALFA.
[14:34] <Rusty> Now, normally, we make ppl play at least 30 days to DM - what are ppl's thoughts on this for NWN2
[14:34] <Rusty> Where that may not be possible?
[14:34] <Rusty> (Leaving aside the particular individual)
[14:35] <Rick7475> Can he play on the App server for 30 days?
[14:35] <Rusty> Technically, he could have been playing on TSF or OAS2 for 30 days by now, I imagine.
[14:35] <AcadiusLost> nothing much to do on the all server yet
[14:35] <AcadiusLost> so it's not really serving the intended purpose
[14:35] <Rusty> I'm not really concerned baout hte technicality of the 30 days - and it would seem that someone who DMd throughout Beta 2 and 3 would prolly get the hang of it by Live.
[14:35] <dergon_IRC> I guess I should speak here: From the app. team point of view it is bringing in someone without any notion of whether they're "alfa material" just because they fofer to DM
[14:35] <AcadiusLost> but it's not DMing live either
[14:35] <Rusty> By am curious as to other opinions.
[14:36] <Rusty> *nods*
[14:36] <dergon_IRC> What if one of these folks becomes a PITA (from either side of the screen) downstream?
[14:36] <AcadiusLost> I'm with Dergon on the admissions concern
[14:36] <Hialmar> we could make the rule: 30 days in ALFA
[14:36] <Hialmar> for the beta
[14:37] <Hialmar> and come back to the normal rule when we are live
[14:37] <Rusty> Right. I mean if someone played a PC in beta for 30 days, would that rly qualify them for Live DMing?
[14:37] <AcadiusLost> if the applicant doesn't own NWN1, that 30 days may be pretty meaningless in terms of soaking up ALFA's ingame feel
[14:37] <Rusty> *nods*
[14:37] <Rusty> THe point, rly, is about exposure to our idiom, IG.
[14:37] <Rusty> But clearly that isn't possible for NWN2ers.
[14:37] <AcadiusLost> our /live/ idiom
[14:38] <Rusty> Right.
[14:38] <Rick7475> Even in beta you get to know a player's style
[14:38] <Cipher> Well better yet, we'd get to know his DMing style
[14:38] <dergon_IRC> for those of you that were in NWN1 alfa beta period....how did it go then?
[14:38] <AcadiusLost> proper beta, yes. 30 days of Beta2 (if it works) might do it
[14:39] <Rusty> OK.
[14:39] <Rusty> My second Q, rly just for Rick, was re. server review.
[14:39] <Hialmar> we could ask the person to participate to a few DMed events on TSF and/or the open app server.
[14:40] <Rusty> Have you got indio's copy of the datasheet?
[14:40] <Rick7475> not sure, there is a data sheet on the forums, is that the same one?
[14:40] <Rusty> On the forums?
[14:40] <Rusty> It should be an excel spreadsheet.
[14:41] <Rick7475> Yeah, I've seen that one on the original app
[14:41] <Rusty> indio said he was filling it in with all the info that's required
[14:42] <Rusty> want to check that if he has, it's been passed on to you
[14:42] <Rick7475> OK, nope, haven't seen that one, then
[14:42] <Rusty> as that sheet is the basis for server review
[14:42] <Rusty> it's rather lengthy, but it should make reviewing server content infinitely easier
[14:42] <AcadiusLost> I had a few build/mod technical questions for Rick as well, when there is time
[14:42] <Rusty> *nods* Those are my Qs. AL
[14:42] <Rick7475> OK, I'll PM Indio and find out what the status is on the spreadsheet
[14:43] <Rusty> AL?
[14:44] <AcadiusLost> OK- first off, sounds like you're building a bunch of connected Exteriors for the region- how are you connecting (or planning to connect) them? Normal OE ATs, seamless ATs, or something else?
[14:45] <Rick7475> Normal AT's
[14:45] <AcadiusLost> Not sure if you've made them to lineup edge-to-edge like Seamless ATs like, but certainly they have some advantages if the areas are tiled
[14:46] <Rick7475> Yeah, they lneup to the highway. Seamless will put you off from the road or in the river
[14:47] <AcadiusLost> Normal ATs mean the "find the AT icon at the edge" dance like the early days of NWN1- they may be a necessary move in many cases, but if we've got areas that line up edge to edge, it'd be a shame not to have seamless in
[14:48] <Rusty> Whta's the disadvantage of seamless?
[14:48] <AcadiusLost> don't think the NWN2-seamless scripts have had the testing love yet- Indio supposedly put some into his small 003 mod, but never found one in testing
[14:48] <Rusty> Ah, OK.
[14:49] <Rick7475> There aren't many that line up edge to edge
[14:49] <AcadiusLost> I wrote them last Xmas before I started core scripting, they may need some revisiting- but they've got some dynamo features
[14:49] <Rick7475> It is harder to measure with NWN2 than the pre-made stuff in NWN2
[14:49] <Rick7475> NWN1
[14:50] <AcadiusLost> they work best when areas are really supposed to be adjacent- with the unwalkable areas being spanned from the next area
[14:50] <Cipher> I assume the normal OE transitions completely bypass ACR. Is that correct?
[14:50] <AcadiusLost> GF's tutorial has some on how to accomplish that
[14:50] <AcadiusLost> IIRC
[14:50] <AcadiusLost> not entirely, Cipher- but they do mean the area doesn't get pre-activated for spawning
[14:50] <Cipher> That's what I was concerned about.
[14:51] <Rusty> Is there a non OE box AT option?
[14:51] <Cipher> That and, well, we really need to use features we're asked to develop
[14:51] <Rusty> Seamless is only good when areas adjoin tho, no?
[14:52] <AcadiusLost> So are the areas built now just some representative snapshots of the space between the points of interest?
[14:53] <AcadiusLost> hmm, looks like an OE area transition can still have it's scripted events filled
[14:53] <Cipher> Minimally, we've got to make sure prespawning happens whether builders use normal transitions or seamless ones.
[14:53] <AcadiusLost> so maybe we can get prespawning working from the acf_trg_onenter
[14:53] <Cipher> Ok that should solve that problem.
[14:54] <Rusty> OK, next Q?
[14:54] <AcadiusLost> just need some way of identifying it as an AT, at worst we can set a variable on it
[14:54] <Rick7475> Well, basically on the map, the areas from 6b to 6d are made with areas for travel, I put up some screenies of the Highway, PC's will be walking from Silverymoon to Rivermoot and elsewhere eventually
[14:55] <AcadiusLost> Followup: Have you tried piling these exteriors into a single directory-mode module yet? You may be fast pushing the limits of nwn2server
[14:55] <AcadiusLost> curious if we're going to need to look at linking modules into a campaign or not
[14:55] <Rick7475> They are all in the directory. What are the limits?
[14:57] <AcadiusLost> that's what we're eager to find out. The old fears about mods > 2 gigs seem a little less spoken of these days
[14:57] <AcadiusLost> but I've never worked with anything larger than 1 gig
[14:57] <Rick7475> OK, Indio gave me a mod that was 1.3 gigs, and now it is 1.5 gigs.
[14:57] <Cipher> Originally, we couldn't even get a 1GB module to load but in directory mode, IIRC folks were able to get 3GB modules running
[14:57] <AcadiusLost> Basically, nwn2server is a 32 bit process, so it can't give more than 2 gigs of RAM to any one process
[14:57] <Cipher> that was a while ago, so things probably have changed
[14:57] <AcadiusLost> not everything in the module goes into RAM, but that's the ceiling we're concerned about
[14:57] <Rick7475> In NWN1 no one said you could have a mod more than 100M, and we had em as high as 200M
[14:58] <AcadiusLost> may start to have systematic problems well before the ceiling
[14:58] <AcadiusLost> but you're going to be at the front of that with TSF I suspect
[14:59] <Rick7475> 9 more exteriors added about 250M, I am looking at perhaps another 10 - 15 exteriors
[14:59] <Rick7475> It may be under 2Gig, but definitely under 3
[14:59] <Cipher> Have you tried running a server with all your current exteriors?
[15:00] <AcadiusLost> piling in waypoints/spawns/blueprints may also start to contribute to the size as you go
[15:00] <Rick7475> Not yet, I was going to finish the last 2 -3 exteriors first, then that would be the beta 2 test stage
[15:01] <Rick7475> Waypoints, spawns, etc don't add that much, it's the bushy tree forest areas that do a lot
[15:01] <Cipher> THere are really two issues: the theoretical RAM limit and the nwn2server module size limit
[15:01] <Cipher> they can intersect at some point tho
[15:01] <Cipher> Ok.
[15:01] <Rick7475> If beta 2 causes problems, then I will have to re-think the size of TSF, maybe make it Silverymoon ore something
[15:01] <Rusty> Can we artifically bloat a mod to test limits?
[15:01] <Rick7475> We can
[15:02] <Rusty> THat might be worth doing; duplicate some areas and just test at a few larger sizes.
[15:02] <AcadiusLost> There may also be the possibility of linking submodules as a campaign as well
[15:02] <Rusty> Just to get an idea if we need to change our planning.
[15:02] <Rick7475> Just duplicate exteriors
[15:02] <AcadiusLost> but I'm not sure what complications that may add
[15:02] * Rusty slaps Trid|Limbo around a bit with a large trout
[15:02] <Rick7475> As it stands, the plan for the mod is:
[15:02] <Rusty> How large is the Amn mod?
[15:02] <AcadiusLost> another tip from GF as well, is to check area performace with the ShowFPS command ingame
[15:03] <AcadiusLost> when the module is hosted
[15:03] <Rick7475> Rivermoot - Silvermoon - Everlund - Sundarbar, MoonWood to the North and Mythral Hall
[15:03] <AcadiusLost> becuase the toolset can be deceiving- areas that are brutal on performance in the game may work smoothly in the toolset
[15:03] <Rick7475> Hoever, I can chop off the eastern expansion
[15:04] <AcadiusLost> as the toolset locks a low resolution and doesn't run all the graphics magic
[15:04] <Cipher> that's a good idea
[15:04] <Rick7475> We can have a SF East and a SF West
[15:05] <Cipher> what would be the FPS benchmark for a CRPG?
[15:05] <Rick7475> But lets see if what we have works first
[15:05] <Rusty> OK, so we need to test this a little, gather some data.
[15:05] <Hialmar> FPS = Frames Per Second
[15:05] <Hialmar> or Images Per Second
[15:05] <AcadiusLost> rick: do you have a 2-computer setup to test joining the module with?
[15:06] <Rick7475> Well, I have one Core Duo, and my other 2 PC's are P4's
[15:06] <Rick7475> But I can alway borrow Jimbo or angel_caller's box
[15:06] <AcadiusLost> The core duo will still lag madly if you get a big nwn2server process going and load a client to join it
[15:07] <Cipher> as mine does :/
[15:07] <AcadiusLost> the game client hogs too many resources to get a good idea of what the performance is
[15:07] <Rick7475> We need Indio's input, he tested a lot of stuff for performance
[15:07] <AcadiusLost> my wife's manages hosting one of GF's near-gig mods along with a player client, but it's not perfect
[15:08] <AcadiusLost> My rig is available to swap mods into on request, but it's only got a gig of RAM currently
[15:08] <AcadiusLost> and will have the OAS2 up by default, when it's not hosting anything else
[15:09] <Rick7475> I can put the mod on Indio's ftp for anyone who wants to test while I keep building
[15:09] <Cipher> speaking of FTP
[15:09] <Rusty> Alright, any more questions for rick?
[15:09] <Rusty> [[infra stuff later ciph]]
[15:10] <AcadiusLost> If the RAM becomes limiting, I can try stress testing using my devel rig
[15:10] <Cipher> Ok.
[15:10] <Rick7475> Also ...
[15:10] <Rick7475> angel_caller suggested for travel areas I just use a 24X24 area and cut it intop 2 or 3 road areas
[15:10] <Rick7475> If size becomes a problem
[15:10] <Rusty> like 3 8x24
[15:10] <Rick7475> yeah
[15:11] <AcadiusLost> The micro-travel map might be workable to retrofir later as well
[15:11] <Rusty> *nods*
[15:11] <Rusty> If we can get ff travel working well
[15:11] <Rusty> then i think that remains the ideal
[15:11] <AcadiusLost> you'd just need to mark out the areas you built up with triggers
[15:11] <AcadiusLost> but linking with alfa-tized OE ATs for now will serve
[15:11] <AcadiusLost> last question: ALFA Spawns
[15:12] <Rick7475> But let's see how things work in beta 2 first, Indio was surprised when he thought things would lag and they tested well
[15:12] <AcadiusLost> are you comfortable setting them up? Is the documentation sufficient?
[15:12] <Rick7475> Yeah, Indio has several set up already
[15:13] <Rusty> Any other questions re. TSF?
[15:13] <AcadiusLost> eager to hear feedback from the trenches on them- if other settings are needed, if some aren't working as advertized
[15:13] <AcadiusLost> Wynna found some problems with them in her Uni work, I've addressed all of them, but I suspect more will arise
[15:14] <AcadiusLost> they do wonders for CPU use / performance though
[15:14] <Rick7475> good stuff
[15:14] <Rusty> If not, what is the current timeline towards Live looking at?
[15:14] <Rusty> January still the target?
[15:15] <Rick7475> January is optimistic
[15:15] <Rick7475> I am thinking 1st quarter, though
[15:15] <Rusty> ^^
[15:15] <Rick7475> Well, Febuary makes me comfy
[15:16] <Rusty> Alright Rick, thanks for the information. Does anyone else have a Q for Rick or are we ready to move onto the OAS?
[15:16] <AcadiusLost> I think we hit all my points for now
[15:16] <Rusty> It's teric's boy's 5th birthday today, so he's not here.. well he is but afk i think.
[15:16] <Rick7475> Just to sum up ...
[15:17] <Rick7475> TSK will be from Rivermoot to Silvy for live, the rest, we'll see what we can do with size and limitations
[15:17] <Rick7475> TSF that is
[15:17] <Rusty> *nods*
[15:17] <Rusty> Teric says:
[15:18] <Rusty> The OAS is sort of stagnant, and sort of progressing. In the last few weeks I've been held back by coming to terms with having to install the database necessary for the newest ACR (done), then spent quite a while trying to find why the mod was eating up resources while running (done) and recently I've been away on holiday.
[15:18] <Rick7475> I gotta run, son has a hockey game
[15:18] <Rusty> Seeya Rick. Thanks.
[15:18] <Rusty> So technically we're coming along and there are a lot of the necessary systems in place; merchants, spawns, rewards for finding things like mushrooms in the forest and animal skins and so on.
[15:18] * Rick7475 has quit IRC (Quit: See you later ALFA!)
[15:18] <Rusty> My problem now (as it has been for a while) is adding what is needed for the mod to be usable by prospective OAS DMs. And at that point my mind goes blank. I've asked for suggestions from the admissions team which haven't been very forthcoming.
[15:18] <Rusty> What I propose to do is this:
[15:18] <Rusty> I'll reinstall NWN1 and download the OAS1 (password, anyone?), go through it and basically rip off as much as I can.
[15:18] <dergon_IRC> OAS DM password
[15:19] <Rusty> It's not passwordedWhat I propose to do is this:
[15:19] <Rusty> I'll reinstall NWN1 and download the OAS1 (password, anyone?), go through it and basically rip off as much as I can.
[15:19] <Rusty> [[ignore spam]]
[15:19] <Cipher> Good place to start.
[15:19] <Rusty> Teric also raised the idea of continuing to develop the mod after the OAS is complete and up
[15:19] <Rusty> And eventually having a Live server covering that area.
[15:20] <AcadiusLost> how would that work, though?
[15:20] <Cipher> What's the latest on the OAS2 hosting situation?
[15:20] <Rusty> We'd just have a Live server that included the area covered in the OAS2; and the OAS2 would continue as is.
[15:20] <AcadiusLost> I'm hosting it for now- no problems with uptime or resources so far
[15:20] <dergon_IRC> I think you would have to have an OAS2 app server and a completely separate Soubar live server
[15:20] <Rusty> Yeah.
[15:21] <Rusty> But as there is no Live-OAS crossover, it's not a definite no.
[15:21] <dergon_IRC> one all hak'd etc the other nude
[15:21] <Rusty> Right.
[15:21] <AcadiusLost> I may be relocating/moving around the new year if all goes well, so a longterm host may be a good idea, but for now it's up 24/7
[15:21] <Rusty> Dergon, who of the current Admissions staff are likely to be NWN2ing it?
[15:21] <dergon_IRC> so far ..........me
[15:21] <Rusty> Or, perhaps I should say, OAS DMs.
[15:22] <AcadiusLost> it's a convenient operation for me, since the OAS2 runs the ACR without being in haks, so it's easier to mod a few scripts here and there to test things
[15:22] <dergon_IRC> there were only "declines" and "maybe later" in my interest thread
[15:22] <Cipher> Yeah that's convenient.
[15:22] <dergon_IRC> but
[15:22] <AcadiusLost> frankly, we've had very few people logging onto the OAS2
[15:22] <Cipher>
[15:22] <Rusty> OK. Well - in terms of matching our development, we'd want a complete and live OAS2 when TSF is in BEta 3.
[15:22] <AcadiusLost> to beta test or have a look around
[15:22] <dergon_IRC> i have been approached by three others who i think would make good team members
[15:22] <Rusty> As then we're actually able to offer content to new members.
[15:23] <AcadiusLost> I think the key is planning some times and running some DM events
[15:23] <AcadiusLost> see what comes up that limits or interferes with actual play
[15:23] <dergon_IRC> Yep --- I am the worlds suckiest DM (lacking in both technical skill and creativity)
[15:23] <dergon_IRC> but I'll try something
[15:23] <Cipher> Is it ready for admissions use? I think Teric's issues with regard to static content shouldn't prevent DMs from evaluating new members on it.
[15:24] <AcadiusLost> For oneoffs here or there I can try to help
[15:24] <Rusty> yeah, but (a) we have nothing for new NWN2 members to do if accepted
[15:24] <Rusty> and (b) we have no OAS2 DMs
[15:24] <Rusty> SO while we /could/ use it, we aren't.
[15:24] <AcadiusLost> cipher: I would say it definitely isn't ready for Admissions use.
[15:24] <dergon_IRC> yeah----- I thnk the thought was ....OAS2 can be for apps after whichever first ALFA server goes live
[15:24] <AcadiusLost> It could be made so before the new year, but isn't currently
[15:25] <dergon_IRC> o/w it's a dead end
[15:25] <Rusty> I'd like to aim for Beta 3 TSF as Live OAS2 date, as Beta 3 is rly just a tidying up exercise.
[15:25] <Rusty> If that's possible at all.
[15:25] <AcadiusLost> well, if we have a Beta2 server, they could play there
[15:25] <AcadiusLost> Beta3 could work as well
[15:26] <AcadiusLost> it's quite possible the OAS2 would get a lot of traffic if we dropped the password and put the pwc up on nwvault and elsewhere
[15:26] <Rusty> Either way, Teric clearly needs some input into content from whatever source he can get it.
[15:26] <Cipher> AL: Have any non-alfa players logged into the OAS2?
[15:26] <Rusty> It's passworded, Ciph.
[15:26] <AcadiusLost> It's passworded
[15:26] <dergon_IRC> needs the live password to get in
[15:27] <AcadiusLost> I've switched password to pull in a few people for testing before, but turned out they were ALFA members as well
[15:27] <Rusty> So we want to be getting as many good ppl involved in OAS DMing as we can
[15:27] <Rusty> And join them up with wannabe TSF DMs
[15:27] <Rusty> and start some DM learnin'
[15:27] <AcadiusLost> Oh! DMFI
[15:27] <Rusty> Go for it.
[15:27] <AcadiusLost> I have the DMFI package up and running on the OAS2
[15:28] <dergon_IRC> i am buying MotB today--then I will check it out
[15:28] <AcadiusLost> it doesn't need haks, but makes use of a custom UI for those who have it
[15:28] <AcadiusLost> should make DMing there a lot easier, and make it a good training classroom for NWN2 DMs
[15:29] <Rusty> *nods*
[15:29] <Rusty> Any other OAS2 related issues?
[15:29] <dergon_IRC> Do you think this is the appropriate forum to discuss specific potential new OAS2 DMs?
[15:29] <dergon_IRC> i have a couple in mind
[15:29] <AcadiusLost> We found the source of the horrible CPU bloat on the OAS2
[15:29] <Rusty> PM me and Mikayla.
[15:29] <dergon_IRC> kk
[15:29] <AcadiusLost> one area that opened fine in the toolset
[15:30] <Rusty> *nods* teric said
[15:30] <AcadiusLost> apparently had some corruption- took it from almost no CPU use at idle, to that 2-3 hour max CPU behaviour
[15:30] <AcadiusLost> another reason to test hosting these things regularly
[15:31] <Rusty> It's nice when these CPU problems turn out to be solvable.
[15:31] <Rusty> Alrighty, I'll get a Moonsea and IK update tomorrow from Thangs and Castano (and maybe ayergo as well)
[15:31] <AcadiusLost> so we can catch them early
[15:31] <Rusty> So, central stuff.
[15:31] <Rusty> Cipher.
[15:31] <dergon_IRC> oh ---and I *think* I know who the non-playing potential DM NWN2 is...and I've RPd with them on another PW---if it is who I think it is they're fine from my perspective
[15:32] <Rusty> Ciph, can we get a run down on Tech Status?
[15:32] <Cipher> Sure.
[15:33] <Cipher> ACR Quest system is done but untested. As you probably have seen from the forums, I've got to get some templates in place for that to realistically happen.
[15:34] <Cipher> I've finished the generic one this morning that I'll send to Indio but I think I may have to do the others - each quest type has it's wrinkles.
[15:36] <Cipher> The next thing on our todo is the PC Custom Content issue. GF mentioned something about OE having that fixed soon but I think I'll still assume worst case.
[15:36] <AcadiusLost> GF didn't sound very optimistic on that last I heard
[15:37] <Rusty> I think only that he'd try and find out.
[15:37] <Rusty> So
[15:37] <Rusty> Assumin it don't happen
[15:37] <Rusty> At least not before Live
[15:37] <AcadiusLost> Have we been able to confirm that the custom tlk works with skills.2da and such on levleup?
[15:37] <Rusty> What is the prospect of a post-creation pre-game conversation allowing skill point reallocaiton?
[15:37] <Cipher> Beyond that, I think we should focus on addressing TSF's needs to prioritize our work.
[15:38] <Cipher> Rusty, I'd like your input (and Mik's) on logging
[15:38] <Cipher> specifically what data you'd like to see logged
[15:38] <Rusty> Everything!!!
[15:38] <Rusty> So we can ban all these awful players who take up valuable DM time.
[15:38] <Rusty>
[15:38] <AcadiusLost> We've got a ton logged already, adding more as we go
[15:38] <Rusty> Back to CC @ Creation
[15:39] <Rusty> Assuming we cant load before creation
[15:39] <Rusty> What is the prospect of a conversastion script to reallocate in starting area/
[15:39] <Rusty> ?
[15:39] <AcadiusLost> Seems to me it's do-able but pretty complicated and going to be pretty clodgy
[15:39] <Cipher> Very doabl.
[15:39] <Rusty> And if we haven't confirmed custom 2das working, how and when can we?
[15:40] <AcadiusLost> the 2das should work- but the question is the tlk
[15:40] <Rusty> How and when can we test that?
[15:40] <AcadiusLost> without it, the names and decsriptions of the new skills will be missing/nonsense
[15:41] <AcadiusLost> I can try working it in on a hak'd test module
[15:41] <Rusty> Because without that working, there's no point developing a reallocation ssytem, right?
[15:41] <Cipher> I don't think we've actually confirmed custom 2das working but from what I've read, it's just a toolset issue, not a game issue.
[15:42] <Rusty> Ciph, do you need anything particular from darren/myself re 2das? And where are the latest 2das? AL - you have yr own versions?
[15:42] <Cipher> Yes I do.
[15:42] <AcadiusLost> IIRC the matter was complicated tremendously by the fact that for a while, the toolset 2da editor was screwing up the formatting, and dropping saved copies to the override
[15:43] <Cipher> I think we've addressed most of the additions but the main thing is to integrate our changes into OE versions
[15:43] <AcadiusLost> there are a lot of standing reports on the nwn2 forums of certain 2das not working from haks- working for only the toolset, or working for only the game
[15:43] <Cipher> and continue to integrate them as we encounter changes with future patches
[15:43] <AcadiusLost> the 2das I've changed for custom content may need to be committed
[15:44] <Rusty> So, AL needs to commit his changes.
[15:44] <AcadiusLost> The skill/class 2das on the SF are plenty dusty
[15:44] <Rusty> Then what does D need to do?
[15:44] <Cipher> Darren can handle the integration. What I'd like from you (or standards) is approval, that we've got everything we need.
[15:44] <Rusty> OK
[15:44] <Rusty> I'll read and talk to D.
[15:44] <Rusty> After AL commits.
[15:44] <AcadiusLost> I suspect the first order of business is to compare the current MotB 2das to the ones on the SF
[15:44] <Rusty> Yea.
[15:45] <AcadiusLost> and move anything that looks ALFA-essential into the background of the MotB 2das
[15:45] <Cipher> Exactly.
[15:45] <Cipher> What we need to do is confirm that all the 2DAs we intend to customize can be customized.
[15:45] <Cipher> (minimally supported in game)
[15:46] <AcadiusLost> I'll make checking that tlk thing and committing my CC 2das a priority after resolving the gui upgrades I'm finishing now
[15:46] <Cipher> I think the thing we really need to avoid is retrofitting PCs so even if we can't access changes in the toolset, we don't have to deal with PC remake issues
[15:46] <AcadiusLost> we can test custom skills/tlk by leveling up ingame
[15:47] <AcadiusLost> we'll need some official calls on skill options as well
[15:48] <Rusty> we'll follow PnP insofar as its possible
[15:48] <AcadiusLost> things like Set Trap, how to handle Perform
[15:48] <Rusty> that means radically changing traps
[15:48] <AcadiusLost> even when PnP.. yeah
[15:48] <Rusty> having multi knowledge
[15:48] <Rusty> the only area i'm not sure on is perform
[15:48] <Rusty> and if it's worth having infinite varieities
[15:48] <AcadiusLost> takes away a core NWN1 and NWN2 class ability
[15:48] <Rusty> takes away a non core D&D ability
[15:48] <Cipher> 2DA repository: http://alfa-bmf.svn.sourceforge.net/vie ... trunk/2das
[15:49] <AcadiusLost> there is also the Lore question- if we nuke the OE skill, identifying items becomes something we need to handle via the ACR
[15:49] <Rusty> ok, will that be a prob?
[15:49] <AcadiusLost> not sure- cipher, do you know how lore/identification works normally?
[15:50] <AcadiusLost> I know there are nwscript functions that allow us access to SetIdentified()
[15:50] <Cipher> I haven't checked but it's got to be tied to the gui like everything else.
[15:50] <AcadiusLost> could make it a targetable Heed's button if needs be
[15:50] <Cipher> Which means that we can intercept those requests.
[15:51] <AcadiusLost> or try for a contextmenu option like we did for identifying creatures
[15:51] <Cipher> Right click item context menu option would be best
[15:51] <Rusty> hrm hrm hrm what's the prospect of adding new item properties including auras of magic
[15:51] * Rusty ducks
[15:51] <Cipher> I expect it's there already.
[15:51] <AcadiusLost> the contextmenus are a little fiddly at current
[15:51] <Cipher> we can add them to the 2DAs
[15:52] <AcadiusLost> placeables and doors seem to only offer Examine/use/bash to most players, despite all the options we've got in contextmenu.xml
[15:52] <Cipher> but as for the rest....we'll have to confirm (tlk, in game, in toolset)
[15:53] <AcadiusLost> seems like there is a logic in how it decides which UI modes to display situationally, which I'm not privy to
[15:53] <AcadiusLost> *UI nodes
[15:53] <Rusty> OK. So current plan for CC addition is test to see if poss, try and find out if it'll be patched before live, if not script conversation to reallocate
[15:53] <Cipher> Might be an error in the XML too
[15:54] <AcadiusLost> Could be- but I see it on the OAS2 as well
[15:54] <AcadiusLost> so maybe OE's XML error with MotB
[15:54] <Cipher> Rusty: yes
[15:55] <Rusty> So a summary of Ciph's Tech talk: (1) Quest template finishing (2) CC for PCs (3) TSF focus
[15:55] <Rusty> Anything else?
[15:55] <AcadiusLost> a bit more on ACR
[15:55] <Cipher> Post ACR Quests (and anything else which might creep up as a priority for TSF Beta 2)
[15:55] <Rusty> OK, Acadius, you have any specifics to raise?
[15:55] <Cipher> updates on DMFI and Heeds hopefully?
[15:56] <AcadiusLost> in case anyone doesn't know, the ACR has been in place over at Exodus since they went Live with Amn
[15:56] <Cipher> Yeah, I think that's great actually.
[15:56] <AcadiusLost> It means we are actually getting real live feedback
[15:56] <Cipher> More people experiencing the horror (or pleasure) of our coding, AL! >:D
[15:57] <AcadiusLost> and the bugs discovered there and feedback are being rolled into the ACR as I go
[15:57] <AcadiusLost> Their DMs have found the SQL logging a real boon, for spotting farmers to have talks with and such
[15:57] <Cipher> Excellent. How are they querying the logs?
[15:57] <AcadiusLost> though currently I think only their host has read access to it, they're doing local
[15:58] <Cipher> Ok. Maybe if they build a nice web interface, we can bum it off them.
[15:58] <AcadiusLost> the ACR seems to be holding up well- which is encouraging
[15:58] <AcadiusLost> Yeah, I've thrown some hints that way, but they're as shortstaffed in tech as we are
[15:59] <AcadiusLost> I'll keep fishing, though
[15:59] <AcadiusLost> They're not using seamless ATs or ALFA spawns
[15:59] <AcadiusLost> so those may still have some unexpected problems
[15:59] <Cipher> Any reason?
[16:00] <AcadiusLost> they'd already configured spawns via NESS I believe
[16:00] <AcadiusLost> the ACR came in at the 11th hour over there- I released just as they were trying to sort Amn for Live
[16:01] <AcadiusLost> We're still missing a few "important" systems for the ACR
[16:01] <AcadiusLost> The Rewards system is still the ATM-style cash only system
[16:01] * Retrieving #alfa-builders modes...
[16:02] <Cipher> Right. No loot drops as yet.
[16:02] <Rusty> That wants to just point at a list of items and values?
[16:02] <Rusty> Right?
[16:02] <AcadiusLost> I put Alara's suggestion in that distributes wealth (25% of the time there is a drop, but 4x value)
[16:02] <Rusty> Yeah, that was a good 'un.
[16:02] <Rusty> How hard will it be to have it point to a valued list of items to pick from?
[16:02] <Cipher> Totally random drops?
[16:03] <AcadiusLost> seems to be pretty good to start with, though will clash a bit if we go back down the road of having them drop cruddy weapons
[16:03] <Rusty> Well if they dont drop any equipped gear
[16:03] <Rusty> Then we dont need cruddy weapons
[16:03] <Rusty> We jus thave the occasional decent one, at appropraite value
[16:03] <Cipher> Depends on how in depth we want to get. If it's just an item lookup based on GP value, it's simple.
[16:03] <Rusty> Yeah, that's all we need, although we would conceviably want different tables for different creatures
[16:04] <Cipher> If we wantn to factor in appropriate items per creature type....it'll add another layer
[16:04] <Cipher> right
[16:04] <Rusty> Unless we can have it refer to equipped gear
[16:04] <Rusty> ANd if the drop value allocated is > weapon carried
[16:04] <Rusty> it just drops that weapon
[16:04] <Rusty> + any difference
[16:04] <Rusty> WHich might be best, but again more complex.
[16:05] <Cipher> The main question though is what blueprints would we use?
[16:05] <Rusty> They'd need to be standard across ALFA.
[16:05] <Rusty> And correctly priced, tho that's relatively trivial for mundane gera.
[16:06] <AcadiusLost> We had also wanted to get population tracking in- but seems to me we can sideline that one- doesn't really change how the world feels to the players at least early on
[16:06] <Rusty> *nods*
[16:06] <Rusty> Other Importants?
[16:07] <AcadiusLost> My other deal drifts towards Infra
[16:07] <Rusty> K.
[16:07] <Rusty> Hialmar, still around?
[16:07] * Hialmar nods
[16:07] <AcadiusLost> but the gui hak should be done soon, then will likely do another quick pass for CC
[16:08] <Rusty> Cool.
[16:08] <AcadiusLost> to get Inaubryn's requests and a few others in
[16:08] <Rusty> K.
[16:08] <Rusty> Infra time then.
[16:08] <Rusty> What's the current status? Seems there might be FTP issues?
[16:08] <Cipher> Did you have anything on DMFI or Heeds you wanted to mention AL?
[16:08] <Cipher> (sorry)
[16:08] <Rusty> & how is our central db stuff looking?
[16:08] <Rusty> [[my bad]]
[16:09] <Hialmar> FTP issues ?
[16:09] <Rusty> Rick was concerned about the size of the mods, no?:
[16:09] <Cipher> He was having trouble uplading TSF
[16:09] <AcadiusLost> I sorted out the DMFI problems I was having- Heed's is still wrestling a bit with the ACR for DB access
[16:10] <Cipher> which begged the question, do we have size limits on our FTP account?
[16:10] <AcadiusLost> thinking I can give it it's own table to work with in our schemas
[16:10] <Rusty> http://www.alandfaraway.org/phpbbforum/ ... hp?t=37106
[16:10] <Rusty> TSF atm is 340 Megs rar'd, compared to the 5-7 of a big NWN1 mod.
[16:10] <Hialmar> we have more than 290 Gigs of free space
[16:11] <Hialmar> maybe he should slice the rar
[16:11] <Hialmar> it might be something with a timeout
[16:11] <Rusty> *nods*
[16:11] <Rusty> yea he had a timeout issue
[16:11] <Cipher> With NWN2 mods on the order of gigs, we'll chew throught that very quickly if we archive versions on the FTP
[16:12] <Rusty> it'll certainly suffice for now, tho
[16:12] <AcadiusLost> The central SQL DB has seemed pretty robust- haven't heard a booting complaint in quite some time
[16:12] <AcadiusLost> The website is still slow often, but seems to be holding up
[16:13] <Rusty> Do we need to organise some kind of 'this is what you are seeing when you look at the sql db' event?
[16:13] <Rusty> Or a writeup
[16:13] <AcadiusLost> would really only help the advanced builders
[16:13] <AcadiusLost> it's nothing most builders will need to know about
[16:13] <Rusty> What about for DMs?
[16:14] <AcadiusLost> unless you mean for log perusal?
[16:14] <Rusty> Yea.
[16:14] <Cipher> I thnk AL put together a nice explanation of the possible reasons for a BOOT event
[16:14] <Cipher> put that in the wiki and training perhaps
[16:14] <AcadiusLost> Well, the thing is- DMs aren't going to be looking at it in SQL DB form
[16:14] <AcadiusLost> otherwise they'd be seeing all the logs for all of ALFA
[16:14] <Rusty> How are they going to look at it?
[16:14] <Cipher> maybe with a checklist as well
[16:15] <Cipher> (step by step for builders and DMs)
[16:15] <AcadiusLost> including everyones total wealth, XP, etc
[16:15] <Cipher> ideally a web front end
[16:15] <AcadiusLost> we need a web frontend that will run SQL queries by access level, yes
[16:15] <Rusty> That's "critical" then
[16:15] <AcadiusLost> but IMHO that's not critical
[16:15] <Rusty> [At least as soon as we have a 2nd live server]
[16:16] <Cipher> critical for live so...a few months away yet
[16:16] <AcadiusLost> during Beta especially, the info on the logs isn't sensitive
[16:16] <Rusty> yeah we def. need for our 2nd live server tho
[16:16] <Rusty> at live if there's one server doesn't matter if dms can see everything
[16:16] <AcadiusLost> Even after live, if we just have a few people with access, that could prop it up until the frontend gets done
[16:17] <AcadiusLost> Admin and HDMs, for ex
[16:17] <Rusty> *nods* HDM, EADM
[16:17] <Rusty> ok
[16:17] <Rusty> Other Infra issues?
[16:17] <AcadiusLost> though techically anyone who is hosting will have the connection info by necessity
[16:17] <AcadiusLost> two questions/issues
[16:17] <Hialmar> Any idea if Paazin works on the logs web thing ?
[16:18] <Cipher> What don't the four of us discuss logging at some point - review what we have as a starting point - and make sure we've got the data and the interfaces spec'd out properly
[16:18] <AcadiusLost> Hialmar: I've talked to him about it- I'll give him another nudge
[16:18] <Hialmar> If he has trouble with that I can help him or do it if need be.
[16:18] <AcadiusLost> Also have a newish member who seemed to have some expertise, we'll see
[16:18] <Rusty> Do we have a post that details waht we have atm?
[16:19] <Hialmar> ok
[16:19] <AcadiusLost> The larger of my two questions:
[16:19] <Cipher> Not that I know of, but we can pull it out of the code easily enough
[16:19] <AcadiusLost> can we set up a central Worldgate server to update player files?
[16:19] <Cipher> (i'll note that rusty)
[16:19] <Rusty> (That wd be useful for me to see where we need to go with logging)
[16:20] <AcadiusLost> basically it just needs FTP space I think, though there may be some configuration issues
[16:20] <AcadiusLost> It works a lot like the hakupdater, can update resources inside haks and pwcs
[16:20] <Hialmar> you mean use something like vaultster ?
[16:20] <AcadiusLost> I /think/ it can also add files like the tlk and UI
[16:20] <Hialmar> ah no
[16:21] <AcadiusLost> no, it's for getting client files set up
[16:21] <Hialmar> like the hakupdater
[16:21] <AcadiusLost> vault is issue #2, heh
[16:21] <AcadiusLost> Indio's set it up for TSF before, after initial complications it ran smoothly and reliably
[16:21] <AcadiusLost> seems to be well maintained
[16:21] <Hialmar> do you need a server running on the machine or can we just use FTP or HTTP ?
[16:21] <AcadiusLost> the feedback on it has been good so far
[16:22] <Cipher> just files I think
[16:22] <AcadiusLost> I'm not as conversant on FTP formats, but I can link the info from the vault
[16:22] <Cipher> configs and downloads
[16:22] <Hialmar> then we can use the website
[16:22] <AcadiusLost> they've got a fair amont of configuration documentation and some howto videos I havn't had a chance to watch yet
[16:22] <Hialmar> we have a huge bandwith available
[16:23] <AcadiusLost> Ideally it'd be good to merge it with the "pwc ftp" that's public
[16:23] <AcadiusLost> so I could keep it up to date as we iterate the haks
[16:23] <Hialmar> *nods*
[16:23] <AcadiusLost> it's getting far more complicated to get into an ALFA module now- haks, tlk, pwc, UI
[16:24] <Cipher> no kidding
[16:24] <AcadiusLost> we need to lower the tech knowledge bar to just hop on and play
[16:24] <Hialmar> yes sure
[16:24] <Cipher> there's a lot of moving parts...I can't imagine how we're going to explain all this to the next generation of ALFAns...
[16:24] <Hialmar> I'll watch those videos and put everything up for testing asap
[16:24] <AcadiusLost> http://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=NW ... tail&id=29
[16:25] <AcadiusLost> Hopefully it can come down to a "run worldgate before you connect"
[16:25] <Rusty> hopefully
[16:25] * Hialmar nods
[16:25] <AcadiusLost> and it will take the finer points out of keeping everyone on the same page.
[16:25] <Hialmar> would be good
[16:25] <Cipher> yup
[16:26] <Rusty> That issue - accessibility - ties a little into PR>
[16:26] <Rusty> Hva eyou all read IWS' post?
[16:26] <AcadiusLost> We may be able to dispense with the custom UI folder as well after DMFI is updated, I hear they're making it hak-able
[16:26] <Cipher> good to hear
[16:27] <Cipher> Rusty: Sadly no.
[16:27] <Rusty> http://www.alandfaraway.org/phpbbforum/ ... hp?t=37166
[16:27] <Hialmar> reading it right now
[16:27] <Rusty> That's an issue derg can prolly feed into as well.
[16:27] <Rusty> (gettting coffee)
[16:27] <dergon_IRC> what's that?
[16:27] * dergon_IRC startles awake
[16:28] <AcadiusLost> The second infra issue is vault
[16:28] <AcadiusLost> plainly said, Netdrive is pretty unreliable for our purposes- it was a workable solution for NWN1
[16:29] <AcadiusLost> but we ought to be able to do better
[16:29] <Hialmar> if it is possible
[16:29] <Hialmar> I wanted to test using SMB over SSH
[16:29] <AcadiusLost> Since we have NWNx and central SQL, vaultster may become an option if it gets ported for NWNx4
[16:29] <Hialmar> but it might be worse than netdrive
[16:30] <AcadiusLost> would be hard to get worse in some respects
[16:30] <Cipher> ok
[16:30] <Hialmar> well the main problem with vaulster is that there is no central location
[16:30] <AcadiusLost> because netdrive doesn't seem to do any errorchecking when getting the directory listing
[16:30] <AcadiusLost> nor retry if it fails
[16:30] <Cipher> I like the suggestions, though I think #1 will be a real challenge for teams - it's hard to fit a game consistently into your real life schedule
[16:30] <AcadiusLost> which means we have to manually retry until we get a clean listing, and can't automate cache flushes
[16:31] <AcadiusLost> it's just not at all set up for large directory trees with multiple users
[16:31] <Hialmar> AL could you test using SMB over SSH ?
[16:31] <Hialmar> I never managed to find anyone ready to test that
[16:32] <AcadiusLost> If you tell me what needs to be done, I can certainly try
[16:32] <AcadiusLost> would have to be walked through it though
[16:32] <Hialmar> When I tried it, it worked way better than netdrive
[16:32] <AcadiusLost> would it work under win2k prof?
[16:32] * dergon_IRC is now known as dergon_afk
[16:32] <dergon_afk> that's my pager------- work time
[16:32] <Hialmar> yes sure
[16:32] <dergon_afk> must run off
[16:32] <Cipher> bye dergon
[16:33] <Hialmar> it would work with any system
[16:33] <Hialmar> my only issue is with timeouts
[16:33] <Hialmar> let me explain you how it works
[16:33] <AcadiusLost> I also don't think we've stress-tested nwn2server for fast read-writes of large bigs over laggy connections- we don't know if it's going to be CEB-prone like NWN1 was
[16:33] <Hialmar> have you used putty to connect to ssh servers ?
[16:34] <AcadiusLost> a bit, when Leareth was hosting Arabel via linux
[16:34] <Hialmar> with putty (or any other ssh client by the way) you can set TCP tunnels
[16:35] <Hialmar> so basically you create a TCP tunnel for the SMB traffic (SMB is the standard MS sharing protocol)
[16:36] <Hialmar> my main question is if this works over time
[16:36] <Hialmar> ie if you get timeouts
[16:36] <AcadiusLost> It may also be worthwhile to revisit AFS
[16:36] <Hialmar> *nods* I have started installing it on the vault computer
[16:37] <AcadiusLost> since it's actually designed and tested to handle mutliple simultaneous connections to a central directory tree
[16:37] <Hialmar> it's a bit hard though so if Zic could help that would be nice
[16:37] <AcadiusLost> Chamu seems to know his stuff as well- he was lining up to be a vault host in Zic's day, but then lost his uber ISP
[16:37] <Hialmar> I have never understood why we had so many problems with it in the past
[16:38] <AcadiusLost> it's in pretty common useage at univeristies for sharing large file trees
[16:38] <Hialmar> I have a friend working on distributed filesystems and he thinks AFS should be the best
[16:38] <AcadiusLost> but we may find the invesment pays off, rather than trying to shoehorn a system meant to work sharing on a local network
[16:39] <AcadiusLost> The good news with vault is, until we have a second server in Beta2/3, we don't need it yet :p
[16:39] <Hialmar> *nods* I will ask Chamu to look at this then
[16:39] <AcadiusLost> so let's keep Worldgate the priority in the meantime
[16:39] <Hialmar> hehe sure but a little testing would be good
[16:40] <AcadiusLost> sounds good.
[16:40] <Rusty> Hialmar, did you have any other questions or concerns?
[16:40] <Hialmar> Not really.
[16:40] <Rusty> OK. Anyone else?
[16:40] <Rusty> If not... 2 hrs 10... not too bad.
[16:41] <Rusty> I will post up this log in Brainstorming
[16:41] <Rusty> And then see if indio, thangs, and rot have any issues tomorrow.
[16:41] <AcadiusLost> Oh, does anyone want to preview the new Heed's and DMFI?
[16:42] <AcadiusLost> I've got a test module up I can distrubute files for
[16:42] <Rusty> Laptopping (and working) atm.
[16:42] <Hialmar> is it MotB compliant ?
[16:43] <Rusty> Thank you to everyone for the input.
