New Base Classes for NWN2-ALFA (Favored Soul, Spirit Shaman)

[Mayhem]

I've *always* wanted to play a character who was purely a channel for their diety's power rather than than having to pray for it.

Mind you, I could equally play a Warlock that way if favoured soul wasn't allowed.

"Kossuth commands you to BURN!" brimstoneblastbrimstoneblast

[kmj2587]

A little late to the thread, but I just noticed it.

The biggest check on the Favored Soul is the lack of versatility, much like with the wiz/sorc, except it's a much bigger loss because clerics get access to all of their spells, instead of having to learn them like wizards. I've found one of the biggest advantages of being a cleric to be the instant access to all the spells of a given level once you gain the ability to cast spells of that level. This is taken away from the Favored Soul, and I think it represents a much bigger check on their power than it does on sorcerers relative to wizards. In addition, Favored Souls do not get access to domains, so they lose certain useful powers and spells that clerics can pick up. Favored Souls in general will be more focused in whatever they do than a cleric, and will suffer more for straying outside their expertise than the cleric does.

Secondly, I agree with Mayhem. Favored Soul sounds cool.

And to Alara: Favored Souls are in Complete Divine and the Player's Handbook II

It sorta blows canon. For the religious orders, where do you put Favored Soul? What is he, a cleric sortof ...? He's not a monk, or a priest, or a Holy Warrior paladin, doesn't make sense in the general application of the historical based fantasy religious orders.

The Favored Soul isn't supposed to fit into any of them. That is, to some degree, the point.

Favored souls are often loners, wandering the land serving their deities. They are welcome by their churches but treated as unusual and are sometimes misunderstood. They are emissaries of their deities and outsider the church's command structure-respected mystics not requiring the support normally crucial to a priest's success.

[AcadiusLost]

hmm, a closer reading of the booklet, reveals that the 11th level power of the Spirit Shaman is essentially a componentless "Raise Dead, 1/day".

Now, I suppose any 9+ level cleric could Raise Dead 3+ times/day... but we might want to think twice about leaving the /day raise dead in for spirit shamans, unless we associate the same component cost/RP overhead that we have in place for NWN1-ALFA. It just seems to run counter to our permadeath environment, otherwise.

[Nyarlathotep]

The 19th level power (forget the name) might be problematic as well, automatically restores 150 hp to the PC after he's been reduced to 0. Almost an immediate raise dead on self. Not that 19th is ever going to be a huge issue in ALFA but might need to disable as unlike the raise dead (ie cost) I don't see anyway of really nerfing it.

I wouldn't see any problem with the spirit shaman having to pay for the raise dead(unless their are tech difficulties)...might not need a diamond but gifts for the spirits, rare ungents and balms could all amount to the same thing in terms of GP.

RP costs could be steeper since instead of dealing with a deity with a vested interest in providing such spells you might be dealing with spirits of a much more mercenary or bizarre natures. Spirits don't need worshipers so you might be needing to provide more tangible benefits (tasks, even greater sacrifices etc).

[Mulu]

Or to avoid DM burden, just make their raise dead give the caster the same xp hit the reciever gets. That'll make them think twice about using it.

In general, it looks like straight-classed cleric still owns all, including the new base classes. So, if you're going to nerf the new classes, you'll probably need to nerf cleric as well, otherwise it would be unjustified.

[AcadiusLost]

If we wanted to nerf clerics for NWN2-ALFA, we could leave the new cleric domains as-is, they're pretty lackluster compared to the expanded ones we put together in the Domains revamp we did for NWN1-ALFA.

A bonus feat, a third level spell, and a 7th level spell? I guess it doesn't seem like as bad of a deal if you're starting off at 17th+ level.

[KnightLight]

I've gone fairly far into MotB as a favored soul, and to be honest... they really aren't all that powerful. I can get a little more versatility, I suppose, but cleric spontaneous conversion makes the difference a lot less than the classical wizard/sorcerer comparison would imply. They are also no great shakes in melee, what with the medium BAB. The high saves are probably the only thing that could be considered overpowered.

[AlmightyTDawg]

If anyone could find a post for the low-level spell progression (i.e. how many spells known, uses per day) that would be important to me. Also helpful would be clerics' experiences in ALFA. Simply put the sorcerer is dominantly about the damage. No sorc gets that 3rd level spell and selects clairvoyance/clairaudience, or even dispel magic. What happens if that's applied to the cleric? At least when tanking through the SP campaigns, you can get away with having a minimally diverse spell loadout. I normally memorize no more than 2-3 diff types of spells per level because they're maximally effective. My question is, in ALFA, how much do/would you be punished for not knowing the right spell? I can't see a DM saying "oh well, you didn't select this spell on level up, so you fail and die" - that's not a proper RP question. I believe that DMs will adjust around an FS' spell loadout, meaning that they can just become the damage-and-buff pimps.

I think the retort about clerics as medium BAB is misguided - because at any level, divine favor not only overcomes it, but adds magical damage to boot. High level clerics who aren't gobbling up crafting feats will generally be able to make that effect persistent as well. And then, just to be a real buster, they cast extended divine power on top. And voila, cleric > fighter. To actually outdo a good cleric build, you need to go RDD or FB, or if you are relying on criticals, WM - you can't do it with straight fighter (they get versatility, not top-end power). In the scope of things, specialization isn't that crucial, but it is just one more area of separation that the fighters lose (though by that point they generally GWF/S anyway).

The domains are a nice loss - and we will probably want to go back to old domains for power reasons (some of the domain abilities like empowered cures, evasion, and uncanny dodge among others) - but I think FS will be as powerful as the type of adventure. An FS will make the perfect buff cleric, with enough spells left over to let them serve reasonably as a front-line fighter for a couple of fights. So the reason why they wouldn't seem jacked in MotB would be because you're trading character power for party-buffing potential (and in that campaign, just let your NPCs do all the buffing).

It's the same thing with warlocks. They seem underpowered because of the campaign style - loads, upon loads of high-HP adversaries and standup fights that it's not practical to run from (because of companions). However, try leaving your companions at home and running around doing a Walk Unseen/Eldritch Spear/Flee the Scene combo some time. If you're really bored and patient, you can pretty much wipe the floor with anything (that can't see invis) not sitting around a blind corner without getting touched.

[Mulu]

Well, SD's have the same "with time kill anything that can't detect them" ability, for the record.

[AlmightyTDawg]

A bit of a tougher sell with SDs, as stealth precludes the ability to chase someone down who wants to run away. I guess if an SD's willing to attack in open space and risk detection/wanted status, maybe less of a concern (i.e. nowhere's safe to run to). Part of it is the crappy invis implementation, part of it is having effective permahaste available - that's what makes the warlock so dangerous in an RP environment.

But anyway, that's kind of beside the point. My note was just that how these classes play out in the campaigns, which have hosts of enemies so uber that they necessitate the extreme gear and builds to survive effectively, is not necessarily reflective of their "ALFA" power. Excepting a slightly slower progression (I'm assuming like sorcs to wiz), and possibly domain powers/spells, favored souls will outcombat clerics, but will be less effective from the RP standpoint of say plots that involve casting infrequently memorized spells. And since most people know that a buffed cleric can outdo a straight up fighter in terms of raw damage/AC (fighters now really do have to rely on KD and disarm), I figure that should put the FS in perspective.

[kmj2587]

If anyone could find a post for the low-level spell progression (i.e. how many spells known, uses per day) that would be important to me.

It's not in the manual, but I leveled one up and it's pretty bad. Their base spells per day is the same as a sorcerer, which is in the level NwN2 manual. They start out with three casts per day once they can cast a given spell level, and get one more every level, maxing out at 6 and at level 20 have 6 casts per day of every spell level. Their spells known progression is a little weird. They get three spells of that level once they've gained the ability to cast it, and continue gaining spells until they have 6 of that level. At level 20 they know 6 spells of levels 1-7, 5 spells at level 8, and 4 spells at level 9(6/6/6/6/6/6/6/5/4).

I would say that's pretty overpowered. If we had a way of changing them over to the sorc spells known progression (5/5/5/4/4/4/3/3/3), I think it would be workable, but as it now I don't think their spell selection is limited enough to be a major check on their power.

[Veilan]

What spells are actually on their lists?

My MotB is apparently still awaiting stock, grumble.

[kmj2587]

What spells are actually on their lists?

My MotB is apparently still awaiting stock, grumble.

Favored Souls pick spells from the cleric spell list.
Spirit Shamans pick from the druid spell list.

[Nyarlathotep]

In light of the possibility of a tanking favored soul you'd need to consider their free weapon profecencies as well too I'd guess.

[AlmightyTDawg]

In light of the possibility of a tanking favored soul you'd need to consider their free weapon profecencies as well too I'd guess.

Yeah, I guess that's what I mean. I would need someone who's played a cleric in ALFA to comment on what it's like in this format. For my money, the most effective use of clerics is as buffers, spontaneously converting buff spells to healing when you don't have anyone worth buffing. The free weapon feats get measured against the 1st-level domains in terms of "free feats" or something of that power. So I think played right, and particularly with high reflex saves, they'll exacerbate the "omg clerics suck" phenomenon.

Everything Nyar said about the canon of them makes them sketchy in my mind. Not that we couldn't invent our own and downtweak the reflex save ourselves, of course.