When you're bleeding out, what is fair?

[AcadiusLost]

The bleeding/dying code will be added to the NWN2 Beta servers with the next ACR update- some early observations while testing it suggest some open discussion with regards to our preferences.

Currently, an unconscious/bleeding PC is still a valid, active target to the standard mob AI. So, the goblin that just knocked PC A into negatives with a lucky crossbow hit, may just continue to attack the unconscious PC until he/she is finished off once and for all, before considering other PC targets. This naturally makes a trip into negative HP a much riskier proposition.

Would it be more IC for mobs to consider a downed PC not to be a threat, and concentrate instead on the PCs/enemies that are still in the game? Certainly it's desirable to give players the chance to make some recovery or stabilization rolls where appropriate- the odds of that are considerably lower if the AI's attention isn't turned away by scripts.

Just as a starting-off point, I've added a command that sets the downed PC as a temporary neutral to the creature that knocked it into the negatives. This helps in some cases, but if it's a group of three kobolds, the other two are going to keep on hacking. I could try an Area of Effect for the same approach, though I'm not sure if that's efficient or desirable.

On the opposite side of the scale, should we be making a melee attack on an unconscious/bleeding PC act as a coup de grace? Or a ranged attack within a certain distance?

Some of this falls under AI scripting- though we'll likely be using the default AI for quite some time still, so it's reasonable to address this sort of thing to some extent from what we have now.

Thoughts?

[darrenhfx]

My opinion is that once a PC is down, the attacker would most likely move to the next available threat.

A melee or close range attack on a incapacitated pc should be considered a coup de grace... with no ability to defend themselves the enemy need only pick a critical area and fire/chop away.

[Grand Fromage]

If possible, I'd say the hostiles should ignore people knocked to negatives and fight those still active, until the battle is over. If all the PCs die, then it makes sense the monsters would finish them off. But, the PCs should also have a chance to defeat them and then try to revive the rest of the party. It doesn't make much sense for a kobold to keep attacking someone who's out of the fight if there's another PC up and fighting right there.

[dergon darkhelm]

If possible, I'd say the hostiles should ignore people knocked to negatives and fight those still active, until the battle is over. If all the PCs die, then it makes sense the monsters would finish them off. But, the PCs should also have a chance to defeat them and then try to revive the rest of the party. It doesn't make much sense for a kobold to keep attacking someone who's out of the fight if there's another PC up and fighting right there.

Agreed ..... +1

[Cassiel]

Plus two, not that I'm completely convinced I should be posting here.

[dergon darkhelm]

not that I'm completely convinced I should be posting here.

i never let that stop me

[ç i p h é r]

It's definitely an AI issue, but I concur with the current sentiment. Creatures should shift their focus to active targets if any remain.

At the most basic level, the creature AI should consider a PC/creature attacking a monster or a member of that monster's faction as the creature that threatens them the most and thus the one most worthy of attacking next. At a more sophisticated level, the creature AI should consider the monster's intelligence in its ability to assess the most dangerous opponent when choosing the next target. NWScript has some useful functions in this regard.

Maybe we can make these adjustments to the standard AI? I think they'll be easier to do in our creature event scripts than in the bleeding system.

[AcadiusLost]

I don't know- I think the major control over targeting and such for the AI comes in the massive DetermineCombatRound(), which is happening constantly for each creature in combat. Any kind of a force-ignore for bleeding-out PCs only needs to happen once, at the time at which they're knocked into the negatives- so rather than checking every opponent for consciousness every round, we may find it less taxing just to handle it at the moment the PC is kicked to negatives.

I'll see if I can work something simple out to stopgap it in the near-term at least.

[indio]

Creslyn worked on some code that did exactly that, AL. We were working on it for the Sticky Fingers of Death concept from way back.

[Veilan]

Also, I think we'd like the bleeding out to happen a little slower than it did currently. Possible solution is to start the bleeding at -1 no matter where you got knocked to if it was above -9, or to make the intervals for rolls longer.

By and large the premise should be that that you have to overcome the party before individual deaths occur with high likelihood. It's not only desirable for the gameplay, but also pretty realistic, as we all noted a mob may not decide to swing another time on an enemy that is incapacitated and may be dead already. Of course, certain monsters or raging barbarians might disagree, but exceptions always add some (rather dangerous) spice.

[Brokenbone]

Re: exceptions adding spice, I agree.

If behaviour could be toggled (I guess we call that "go for the kill"), that'd be ideal.

There are many critters I do not expect to make intelligent re-targeting decisions. Molds/oozes/jellies. Mindless (or intelligent) undead who hate life's spark or who are trying to drink the last of someone's life energy. Stupid / hungry / bloodlusty monsters who'd rather get their kill than run around and fight allies (I'm picturing a Chultan dinosaur for some reason).

I suppose also ideal is that eventually, if there's no other "upright and mobile" PCs, that the ones who were downed get finished off in most cases. There are many times as a DM where one'll stumble across a PC bleeding out with a hostile mob just sort of circling them, stupidly. Sometimes this is a chance for DM mercy (goblin mob "takes the PC captive") or to otherwise realistically play out the end (*dire wolf's hot breath is in your face as its jaws clamp on your throat, and the lights go out*)

Anyhow yeah, toggle-able and that the ignorance/protection eventually wears off, those'd be ideal.