NWN2: XP caps discussion

[Mayhem]

But if you and your friends think going out and killing monsters is more fun than roleplaying a PC and trying to be part of a persistant, RP orientated PW in which monsters do not exist for your convenience, why on earth are you getting involved in ALFA, rather than just playing through the original campaign a few times in co-op mode, racking up the bodycount?

You either didn't read my post, or you're insisting on posing a straw man so you can win an argument. I'm going to assume the former.
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Well, if you are not going to read *my* original post (and cut off half a paragraph to make the quote better fit your argument) why should I extend you that same courtesy?

And why shouldn't I make sweeping generalisations about your playstyle when you do the same about me?

***

Back on topic

The DMG does not encourage rewarding of XP for the slaying of monsters, but for the overcoming of a challenge. If the monsters were minding their own business and you had no great reason to attack them, they were not necessarily a "challenge".

By the DMG, even if they were in your way you wouldn't get XP for killing them, but specifically for overcoming the challenge. That might involve killing them, but it might equally involve sneaking past them, tricking them, bribing them etc.

Believe me, if you can come up with an IC explanation for why you had to kill those monsters, I can come up with an IC explanation for why I had to get past them. Should we therefore have a script that awards me the same XP you got if I manage to sneak through them unseen? Or a script that allows me to talk my way past them, or decoy them?

Or, should we leave the matter in the hands of the DM? That's pretty much what I'm advocating.

Or, for those times when there is no DM, it could be done quite easily if the monsters were part of a static, of course - you'd get the XP when the job was complete, the script wouldn't even have to know how you got past, only that you did - which would be self evident when you come back with whatever it was the NPC quest-giver asked you for.

So, I re-iterate, we do not need to hand out XP just for killing monsters. I would even go as far as to say we *should* not do so, as that actively encourages people to play combat-capable characters rather than more stealth based or social based ones.

[Khazar Stoneblood]

I'd love a script that gives XP for sneaking past monsters. Also for opening locks, disarming traps, detecting hidden creatures, and tracking enemies.

XP for appropriate skill use to solve problems... even in DM'd sessions... is woefully ignored.

[Fionn]

I'd love a script that gives XP for sneaking past monsters. Also for opening locks, disarming traps, detecting hidden creatures, and tracking enemies.

XP for appropriate skill use to solve problems... even in DM'd sessions... is woefully ignored.

Most of us reward based upon RP and time. 'appropriate skill use' is one of the things that sets 'excellent RP' from 'mediocre killing toons'. You may not always get it from a DM at the time you earn it, but that doesn't mean you aren't earning it ;)

*scripted* rewards for such is much harder to code (without exploits), thus much rarer. I have seen several statics for scouting that involve the use of stealth. The old Loudwater mod was full of such.

[Ronan]

and you basically cater ALFA towards the players who play for roughly the amount of time as it takes to fill up that XP cap.

ALFA currently caters to those who play the most, as do really all PW projects. The result is that many of the rest leave out of frustration, since their PC's are irrelevant in the world. I think a cap would ultimately retain more than it would cause to leave, and retain those who are more interested in rp than xp.

I know what your saying, though technically its the design of PWs themselves: People who play more become more powerful. To cater to one group or another we'd have to manually alter something, such as catering to players who play less by some sort of hard or soft cap.

However, in most cases I've seen, the more casual players in ALFA get fed up with things moving too quickly in plots and the like far, far more than PC advancement. People who play once a week just get "out of the loop", often in OOC fashions ("where were you when the orcs attacked yesterday?"). Its regretable, but its more of a matter of how a campaign is DMed than anything else.

I won't argue that people who play less don't get frustrated with leveling slower, I just haven't seen it nearly as much as the above example. I think a too-hard of a cap could easily frustrate the more frequent players more so, especially since ALFA is a permadeath setting. The ideal solution is probably to have the frequent players play in different campaigns and/or servers than the casual ones.

[Khazar Stoneblood]

I'd love a script that gives XP for sneaking past monsters. Also for opening locks, disarming traps, detecting hidden creatures, and tracking enemies.

XP for appropriate skill use to solve problems... even in DM'd sessions... is woefully ignored.

Most of us reward based upon RP and time. 'appropriate skill use' is one of the things that sets 'excellent RP' from 'mediocre killing toons'. You may not always get it from a DM at the time you earn it, but that doesn't mean you aren't earning it

*scripted* rewards for such is much harder to code (without exploits), thus much rarer. I have seen several statics for scouting that involve the use of stealth. The old Loudwater mod was full of such.

I'd just like to point out that while you do get XP for completing tasks, I've never gotten the feeling it was in any way adjusted by how much combat was engaged in.

For example, I play for x amount of time with a DM that involves rescuing a child from kobolds. Based on DM awards for quests taking about that amount of time, I feel like I would get the same "RP" award had I gone in swinging a sword and killed all the kobolds, or snuck in and rescued the child and snuck out. The only difference is I'd get EXTRA XP for killing the kobolds.

I've always viewed RP exp as "extra", not as something given for beating the challenge of an encounter.... otherwise there wouldn't be any XP given for killing the monsters.

Theoretically, a PC who sneaks past an encounter on the road and one who slaughters the monsters should get an equal amount of XP were they the same level. They both did "defeat the challenge" afterall. 99 times out of 100, the one killing the monsters will get more XP.

[Mulu]

We've had the discussion about static rogue skill xp before. I thought the conclusion was that it could be done in a nonexploitable way (essentially dimret based on DC of lock/trap), but it's a lot of effort.

ah, Here it is

[Mayhem]

Actually, the whole issue of XP for spawns is (though strongly interelated) not the central topic of this thread and so I shall start another on that issue.

I brought it up because if XP from monster-farming is unavailable, the need for a static cap is considerably lessened.

If XP only comes from controlled static content and from DMs, and those DMs can be trusted not to twink their friends, the need for a static cap is eliminated entirely.

That trust is perhaps the issue - not just the possability of a "crooked DM" but more importantly the fact that some players might unjustly believe that a DM is crooked, and giving out. People are human, after all.

****

On that note:

I understand that in NWN2, server porting will be significantly easier.

This is kinda radical, but what if we only allowed DM XP to be awarded in a special "debriefing server" that was deliberately set up to keep track of how much XP a PC had been awarded, and recorded the amount of XP they had last time they were on said server?

It would easily spot a PC that had gained a massive amount of XP since their last session, whilst providing a log of all legitamately awarded DM XP.

This would *only* work if transporting to said server was as easy as pulling out the DM wand is, currently. It would make "on the fly" awards for outstanting RP or cleverness harder, as well. It's probably not a practical idea, but I thought I would share it anyway, see if it gives anyone else inspiration for more practical idea.

[Lusipher]

Heres an idea. Make a list of say 4 proposals of how to do this XP cap. List them and have everyone vote and it sticks. We waste too much bloody time debating this stuff. Get 4 good proposals/ideas and whatever wins we stick with no matter what. I dunno whats up with ALFA anymore... I see other NWN2 projects trucking along just fine, but we are constantly..constantly stuck in these silly debates. Make some tough choices folks and live with them for the good of this place.

[HEEGZ]

That does not seem like an optimal solution IMO. I'd much rather see cross server or global DMs handle things like that. Perhaps even HDMs or the DMA, etc. One thing about XP and caps, etc. We need to keep all of our options open for character advancement. Off the top of my head, I think this includes Static quest XP, random spawn mob XP, RP scripts XP, and DM awarded XP for both RP and Quests. I think we have solutions in the works for every single one of those types of XP, so ideally we shouldn't need a cap. I think we can avoid a lot of headache by only monitoring things in the long term like I've posted earlier. This would allow for plenty of freedom for how and when XP is gained, with little oversight required by DMs. I don't see the need for an OOC server to handle XP situations when simpler solutions exist already IMO. Presumably, if a DM is free to grant XP, the PC in question needs to be one they are familiar with. There is actually a lot of what ifs that this brings up that should be addressed in DM training, and don't really seem related to whether or not we should have a cap. Interesting idea though. Reminds me of the whole travel server concept.

[Fionn]

However, in most cases I've seen, the more casual players in ALFA get fed up with things moving too quickly in plots and the like far, far more than PC advancement. People who play once a week just get "out of the loop", often in OOC fashions ("where were you when the orcs attacked yesterday?"). Its regretable, but its more of a matter of how a campaign is DMed than anything else.

Well, that's another issue. I'd like to see *far* more effort put into story arcs. Unfortunately, it's nothing tech is going to help with (much). The solution, should we deem it important enough, is to balance IG time with & without a DM.

Essentially, put required items/information in the mod (or on the DM boards) and let the PCs loose. Those with 60+ hours a week will get more of it. Players will need to get together outside of the DM'd session and piece parts together. Come [Friday night], the DM logs in and things start happening. PCs have either done their homework, or not.

This approach does make the 4 hour player rather dependent on the good will (and competence) of the 40+ player, but such is life. If they got the map, the Word of Power, and the Sword of Ages, but nobody figured out that the party needs protection from the Lightning Field.... ooops.

The issue to be mindful of is sole-sourcing the party. I've spent FAR too many session awaiting the arrival (either from off-server or RL) of the one PC in all the world that has some crucial key (plot-locked door), or for some other reason stopped the session. This is BS. 5 peeps online should not be forced into a story arc, nor should they be forced OUT of one by the DM's poor planning.

[ç i p h é r]

I dunno whats up with ALFA anymore... I see other NWN2 projects trucking along just fine, but we are constantly..constantly stuck in these silly debates.

Now if only ALFA got a creature/item/placeable blueprint for every post, all debates, regardless of silliness, would be incredibly constructive. So with that in mind, I'm going to put the following on my Infra wish list:

Each time someone clicks on "Post Reply", they must upload a new .UTx file to proceed. Metered. Forum. Usage. BOOYAH! I'll even code it!

At least until LIVE. You know you like it.