Localized pause

[JspecWip]

I understand and appreciate that not everyone would enjoy playing in this style, and am not advicating that ALFA wide combat policy should be changed, I'm simply saying that if time stop is capable of accomplishing a localized pause then I believe it should be explored as a tool availible to DMs. Then it can be employed as a Dm see's fit if this type of style is to their, or their play groups liking.

Also as it is now combat or preperation for combat probably does take up 30 min of a 2 hour gaming session, I think it would be fair to say it take up more time than that. As it is now its just that many more encounters are faced.

Looking at the thread that spawned this off-shoot, its easy to see that combat is a huge problem in terms of game balance and representation of canon.

A localized pausing system isn't the solution either, because its up to DM implementation and we would need many more DM's for such a system to work.

(i.e., a pack of orcs are unlikely to gut my PC, so I can probably manage a *swings overhand* "Yield, pigblood!" and be little the worse for wear).

For lack of a better example I'll use this one

*Disclaimer I've gamed with bone before, and know and appreciate his dedication to remain IC and his Rp skill*

Any time that a Pc is out numbered he should be worried, its about numbers after all. 5 orcs even if they are CR 1/2 or CR1 could pose a problem for a mid lvl fighter if he took them on alone. Now low Cr's pose little to no threat, factor in cleave or to be obscene great cleave, and a mid level fighter can wade through a city of gobo's. To combat this, either mobs Cr's have to be falsely inflated to make up for AI short comings, or mobs have to be reduced to near zero Xp for the fact that it is easy plow through them, this is also due to Ai IMO.

Both these solutions lead to PC arms races and kit builds, and all sorts of the things we just got through talking about.

Playing in this style would level such things out across all of ALFA but because it depends on DM's completely I don't see it as a viable option in a PW as large as ALFA. But such a thing is viable for people who wish to play in this style, or DM's who wish to run encounters that feature Inteligent mobs.

[Brokenbone]

Seeing Heegz's mention that this would be a "DM only" kind of thing, forget the comments about trustworthiness, but the comments about rhythm of the game would still stand. I'm having difficulty thinking even when a DM would care to use it.

...
DM: ((If anyone needs a moment with the keyboard, hit your *requesting pause* quickslot, I'll be watching for it))
---fighting ensues---
PC1 [Party]: *requesting pause*
---DM notices and pauses... 1-2 minutes pass, PCs 2, 3, 4, wait while PC1 types---
PC1 [Party]: RAWR! Tremble before the might of Jan Vilesilencer, third scion to the lawful lord of the Clan Vilesilencer, first Swordcaptain and master of the Marsember Expeditionary Force, winner of Tervale's Sloanberry Pie eating contest, AND YOUR DOOM!
PC2 [Tell to PC3]: ((FFS, we paused for that?))
...

Anyhow I'd still suggest quickslotting a few choice remarks, curses, taunts, whatever is not a bad workaround.
...

I do think the "ability to wander around in combat without a care in the world" thing is a bit of a tangent, though good points for the threads which I know helped crystallize the concern (Armor Class thread for instance). Being able to pause or not would not alter the confidence of a midlevel fighter to take on 10 bog-standard orcs, either silently, thru quickslotted emotes, or by simply targetting a likely orc then starting an essay in the Talk or Party channel... letting plain slugging away, cleaving, auto-attacking anyone who comes within range take place as you write.

[Mulu]

If they repeated a lot, he may have had his emotes quickslotted.

They didn't. Every one was unique, misspellings and all.

I, on the other hand, got jealous and tried quickslotting them, then decided they were dumb after awhile.

I'm going to guess that this guy played a fighter type with either a very high AC or using expertise..............then it's just "left-click-on-the-bad-guy-and-emote-away"

Actually, he played a rapier wielding pirate (rogue/fighter build) who frequently used combat features like disarm....

Anyway, back on topic. I think JspecWip effectively answered his own question by pointing out that a pause system, however implemented, just doesn't fit the ALFA model. It would be best if used in an NWC style DM'ed session. I did have a DM who would pause the game on player command, and it worked fine, though he was the only one I ever saw use that system. Most just rely on the engine, and assume that whatever twitch errors occur are representative of the fog of war, an aspect that PnP downplays a great deal by allowing players to deliberate at length what they are going to do each and every moment of combat. Sometimes, things happen so fast in combat that you are lucky to be swinging at an opponent rather than a friend. I think the game engine actually allows for a more realistic combat experience because of this. Every personal account I've ever read about RL combat expresses the confusion and frustration and just plain fear and indecision that people experience, and that's going back to the Middle Ages, not just modern times. The D&D PnP model of combat is one of strategic gaming, not realistic combat, even if it does allow for creative solutions.

Basically, both PnP and NWN have their strengths and weaknesses, and neither are realistic. They may both be based on the D&D rules, but they are ultimately different games, hence why many people still play both. Adherence to PnP isn't just an unrealistic goal, it's probably not even a worthy one. If you want a true PnP experience, play PnP. This is a different game.

[JspecWip]

Being able to pause or not would not alter the confidence of a midlevel fighter to take on 10 bog-standard orcs, either silently, thru quickslotted emotes, or by simply targetting a likely orc then starting an essay in the Talk or Party channel... letting plain slugging away, cleaving, auto-attacking anyone who comes within range take place as you write.

10 CR1/2 orcs should pose a huge problem for a solo mid level fighter, with the game engine this won't be possible because tactics, and certain actions can't be used. Now the FP fighter will just wade through them as they all charge him and get stuck behind each other in the middle of an open field.

If this were in, the game would pause after round one before he even makes it to them and they would spread out in a semi circle around him, use ranged weapons to draw him in. Then they would encircle him and if ideal the would abuse his crap move rate untill he charged one, then the rest would gang him and grapple him. Then he's dead.

This isn't about emotes like "have at thee fiend..." its about making mobs not retarded and making combat more than a click fest, something where people have to think. This would alow greater Xp rewards because combat would be harder and with lower CR mobs. Also its alot more memorable to peel 3 gobo's off your friends back, or tackle the escaping bandit, tie up the orc leader and bring him for execution. This type of system would be better Rp and make more RP.

The pause would happen at the end of every round, aka like in the BG games where you can have the game pause at the end of everyround. Not whenever a player wanted one.

This system could be a light one, where its just paused to allow players an emote or to decided their next action, or to do something that can't be represented by the engine, the same for the the mobs.

Or it could be a heavey PNP system where you emote every action and then use the PC dice bag for all your rolls, making this pretty much a mush w/graphics.
I'm not even for this type of system though in CVC i think it would be more fun.

I understand that a real time combat system does represent actual combat better, but even this game is based on a round system and isn't really *Real* time. Also with this being a game played over the internet and on a computer Cpu/graphic problems and lag are just as likely to be the reason behind one's demise as the actual encounter.

To me Alfa is about recreating the Forgotten Realms, and bringing the PnP experiance on-line with graphical representations. Why else do we add all the pnp skills and the hak files and everything else, or have such strict representation of canon standards?

[Mulu]

My recollection of most grapple systems is that an armed opponent gets a swing at anybody attempting it, more than enough to kill those orcs as they try.

A turn-based combat script would allow for more PnP style fighting, since the DM could change the encounter scenario to fit whatever the PC's stated they were doing at the end of every round. But again I think that's a function best left to a single DM campaign outside of ALFA.

I remember playing the original Neverwinter Nights back in the early 90's on AOL. It was the first MMORPG ever (and the only MMORPG I ever played), and was based on the SSI games of the time licensed from TSR. It had turn based combat, but was otherwise a stripped down version of the game, and of course was not DM'ed in any real sense. I don't miss it.


Although I see the utility of being able to call out actions every round and have the DM modify the combat encounter accordingly, in a large group, i.e. more than three or four players, the turn based system bogs down and becomes moribund.

My play experience with DM'ed sessions using NWN, which is fairly extensive now after being at NWC since 2002, is that, despite losing some strategic and creative control over combat, what you gain in fast resolution, excitment, combat graphics, and the necessary strategies of dealing with real-time situations far outweighs the losses. NWN will never duplicate the PnP experience, but likewise PnP will never duplicate the NWN experience. They are simply different. I've actually come to prefer NWN over PnP, largely because the drudgery of combat rolls has been eliminated (that and greater immersion).

And let's face it, having to stop combat and go OOC to discuss what's going to happen next is both fiction breaking and not necessarily conducive to roleplay. Especially since what players *think* their PC's can do and what the DM will actually allow their PC's to do are often entirely different things.

Player: "I trip the ogre with my rope."
DM: "Okay, where is your rope now?"
Player: "oh, well it's in my backpack."
DM: "Do you see a problem with your proposed action?"



Though, for what it's worth, you're not alone in your desires.

We are working now on adding a placeable housing system for players, putting in several new trade skills, and integrating another series of expansion zones. Finally, and possibly the most exciting thing for former NWN players, we are working on a turn-based combat system that will be deployed in designated areas, to better emulate the combat system of the original NWN. I have scripted a working system for melee combat and AOE spells, and together with Syrus Greycloak, a long-time staff member and the creator of The Grimoire spell expansion hakpaks, we are in the process of adding a turn-based timing system to all spells with a duration component. This is the final step in the creation of a full-fledged turn-based combat system for the game.

Neverwinter Nights Resurrection

[HEEGZ]

Well I was just thinking it would only be used by the DM when the DM would normally pause the action. The difference being PC's not involved with the DM would be unaffected. It could also slow things down more like PnP if things were really chaotic, but to me it seems now it would be more trouble than it's worth. Thanks for all the interesting replies, and feel free to keep discussing things even though my question has been answered.

[JspecWip]

One AoOp per round, unless you have combat reflexes, then you get extra ones according to your dex bonus. Even then if in FP you would get two max becaues armour limits dex bonus.

So kill the one first attacked, then two others that leaves seven others that can attempt a grapple on him.

Since you've played PnP you know that its up to the Dm to enforce Immersion, but I do agree that this kind of system would pose a problem to those that have little canon/Pnp knowledge.

[Dorn]

I think that those wanting to play a turn based paused NWN2 would be a vast minority.

However, if there is a way of having localised pauses and a small group really wants to with a DM who is willing...why not?

Provided it doesn't increase scripting load on the server, impact on other players and DM events and anything else significantly.

I mean for all the disagreement Nalo got for his idea he did it anyways with a small group and i believe that was fun for those involved. Just cos something isn't everyones cup of tea doesn't make it wrong.

I DO think you'd have to work out the scripting and potential issues yourselves though and propose them to Admin as, again, i think it's a minority who will be interested.

Good luck!

[Mulu]

So kill the one first attacked, then two others that leaves seven others that can attempt a grapple on him.

And that attempt would likely fail on the first try, thus triggering more attacks on the remaining orcs, and that's assuming that they got initiative which is unlikely (in fact they automatically lose initiative under most grappling rules). Throw in great cleave, or whirlwind attack, and they are history on either the first or second round without freakishly bad rolls. D&D is made to allow PC's to take on otherwise unbalanced encounters. It's a heroic fantasy roleplaying game after all. But the point that combat has more possible outcomes in PnP is taken.

Since you've played PnP you know that its up to the Dm to enforce Immersion, but I do agree that this kind of system would pose a problem to those that have little canon/Pnp knowledge.

It's not about lack of knowledge, or enforcing immersion, it's about sitting still reading player 1's proposed actions and the DM's response, player 2's proposed actions and the DM's response.... There is nothing to enforce, it is a necessary byproduct of turn based combat with players being allowed to take actions that are not accounted for by the game engine. A system that allows players to call out their actions in a turn based format is immersion breaking, simple as that. It's a big reason why I prefer NWN over PnP, despite the limitations imposed by the game engine. And let's face it, as slow as this system is in PnP, it would be even slower in NWN since you are typing instead of talking.

But like Dorn said, go for it. Find a group and a DM that wants to play this style, and a coding team to implement it, and it's yours.