Combat & PC armor class

[HEEGZ]

I HAVE suggested making anything over 1000 gold only buyable from DMs and so on, to keep the amount of people buying uber armours at low levels down. But that was said to be too restrictive.

I'm sure this has been talked to death a long time ago, but I would think that with NWN2 coming up and a focus on increased player (and presumably DM) density, that something along this line could be easily implemented. I'd stretch it to say that 900g magic ring is not available to all PCs, but that the 50lb. full plate for 1600g might be. Actually IMO I think having anything non-magical should be NPC purchasable as well as masterwork items from appropriate vendors. Anything that magically alters stats or abilities though should only be acquired from a DM run quest or DM possessed NPC merchant/crafter. Example:

Rhol Plair: *clears throat* Do you have anything with an enchantment?
Mir Chent: *goes to safe in back room, returns with a shining whatever* Aye, this beastie has been known to pierce even the toughest armor...

The PC barters price, makes pursuade/appraise checks, etc. then DM finishes the sale after verifying wealth standards will be upheld and no PGing going on. I would guess that if a system like this was established, a DM could run it in 5 minutes or less. Basically wave the wand, determine what the PC wants, complete necessary dialog (lots of potential here, even some RP xp? ) and then complete the purchase. I'd like to see more magic items come via quests, but the canon availability of magical gear would require a purchase system of some sort. As a player I like that magic items are available via merchants, and am used to it. However, if a system like this was implemented I think it would be even more rewarding from a RP stand point and make that magical piece even more precious once it is 'earned' (even if only via a 2 min. DM purchase at < 1000g). I'd say more but I think that's good enough explanation for now... *braces*

I also suggested that major spawns leave a token rather then lots of loot. That way the DM can decide an appropriate reward considering the PCs current status in terms of wealth etc (which probably relates to AC).

I personally don't like the token/trade-for-loot idea. For me it breaks the immersion completely. I'd rather see more time spent making sure the statics drop appropriate loot, and if it is too much/little, change it. Well, re-reading I see you say 'major spawns' but I think anything that drops an item worthy of DM control should probably be run by the DM in the first place. My belief on statics is they should just be RP/canon filler until the next DM run session or tavern PC chit chat. But that's an over-simplication and another topic entirely.

if these two and some common sense in rewards were played out it would make things easier in reducing silly ACs so early.

Agree with common sense and powerful item/loot control via DM, though not via a token system.

I'd also support the tower shield being a mixed blessing instead of it's current free AC point situation.

As it stands currently I believe:
buckler=6lbs
shield=15lbs
tower=19lbs
Four pounds to any PC that can equip a shield is not much of a difference at all... Now 5lb bucklers and 30+lb TOWER shields makes a more compelling argument, and increases the desirability of magical/masterwork shields alot more (see reply to first topic above about DM distribution of these types of items). This might have the happy side effect of barbarians etc. using 2H more often as well : P

Well, just my thoughts, maybe something can be gleaned from them. Though I would honestly not complain if the current system was left as-is. Like Dan said though, good discussion here.

[Mulu]

If we could clip Tumble and Expertise, that'd be a big boost.

Okay, you had me until this one. Expertise incurs a -5 penalty to hit, and Tumble doesn't work if you are wearing heavy armor or carrying a shield (Dex penalties apply to Tumble skill).

Tumble skill is one of the few assists rogues get to their AC. Nerfing it would be stupid if your goal is to prevent tanks, since it doesn't apply to tanks.

Without the ability to Charge, I can see a lot of arguements against slowing Plate - especially if we don't have racial movement rates. If we can provide the ability to charge/overrun said archer, then it's all good

An archer or other light armored opponent should always be able to outrun a heavily armored opponent, barring magic. That's what throwing axes are for, silly. You get your full strength damage add when using them, and they have a triple crit, perfect for pesky low AC archers.

But, do keep in mind that casters of all sorts receive a nerf in NWN2. The horrid magic vestiment and magic weapon spells are nerfed from 1 AC per 3 levels to 1 AC per 4. Even still, clerics are probably always going to have the highest AC. Not much we can do about that, unless we want to start re-balancing the classes, which is a rather large can of worms to open.

I was under the impression that buff spells were going to be nerfed from durations of hours/turns to rounds for ALFA NWN2, making them a one combat shot, like summons.

As for dropping "tokens," it can be made IC. Just come up with something that is useless, like a crystal with a 1pg sell price, and have that crystal be valuable to certain buyers. I agree that "DM Token" would be lame, but it doesn't take much imagination to come up with an IC system that accomplishes the same goal. It could even be part of a world plot.

As for multiclassing, well people take levels in cleric because healing potions are retardedly expensive, large and heavy. I bet with armor move rates implemented you are going to see a lot more people taking a level in barbarian....

As for tower shields, just eliminate them from the game. They aren't IC at all anyway, unless you are standing on a phalanx line. No highly mobile adventurer is going to lug one around. Alternatively, just accept that they are not *really* tower shields, just *larger* shields, and add weight as appropriate.

[danielmn]

Just a reply to HEEGZ, I totally second a mundane only shopping experience in nwn2. Though I am also used to magical items up for sale, I think that by providing only mundanes in the front shop cases (un-possessed merchants) and magicals in the back rooms (possessed by dm merchants) makes it easier for dms to keep tabs on A. possible pgers B. possible wealth standard abuse while making the actual purchase of an item memorable to the player through appraise/persuade checks with the merchant. I think it a great idea to also keep track of abuses of magical items (ie. too many or in present case thread stackable AC modifiers). The dm's could be required to mark said items as well. We do run into the problem of people storing uber gear in p-chests and dm's not getting an accurate representation of the total amount of wealth/magical items a player possesses, perhaps compiled lists can be kept detailing what each player has, items added upon player receipt of new items.

Daniel M. Noah

[JspecWip]

I see more clerics or multi-class clerics on alfa than I can shake a stick at, we all know why this is too. I think fixing heavy armour will have the most effect on these kits because they have a limited dex bonus and now can solve it with the no-penalty heavy armour/TS. Also they buff up thier ab/and ac. This makes them a much more effective tank (PG Combo IMO)
than a straight fighter will ever be. A pali should be able to stand next to a fighter but a cleric isn't a Pali, thats what make this a load of crap.

I don't see the *major* problems with changing the movement rate for heavy armour, in terms of game play not the actual coding aspect. It will make it situational as it should be for purposes of both canon and immersion. Depending on how the armours are classed in NWN2 thats a 2-4 hit to AC to keep a base movement rate, and thats with stock gear. Implementing armour don times could be a hassle but I think its worth it because it balances things back out and makes a fighter's AB bonus's much more effective.

As for lack of charge, if Towershields get hit with a weight penalty they will get a bonus of some sort to represent cover. Also now even there is a hack out that allows charge, so its do-able. Also if mobs are aren't uber balanced the 19 or 21 ac will be *hard* to hit for most mobs.
And lastly you don't wear Fp to explore, and unless your soloing you will have back up against the ranged mobs. So it mostly hurts soloers grinding statics...Oh....No....

The tumble ac bonus works even if your in armour, every 5 points its +1 to ac this isn't PnP as far as I know, the skill check only happens to avoid attacks of Oppertunity. So a tank can take tumble as cross class or a class level of theif/monk whatever and add up the skill points he's been saving to it so he gets a +1 or +2 to his ac.

The barb move rate increase only works in light armour I believe, so it wouldn't by-pass the HA movement penalty.

[Mulu]

Now, on to philosophy. Not too long ago I had a paladin PC, wearing full plate and carrying a tower shield and with buffs and expertise on, hold a bridge against an otherwise overwhelming foe while the archers and spellcasters thinned the horde. It was a heroic moment, and if my pally had *not* be able to hold the bridge it would have been a TPK. We should be able to roleplay heroes who actually survive. It's what the game is about. I'm all for game balance, but D&D is not a realistic simulation of anything, and being a hero never gets old.

[danielmn]

Mulu, I imagine the horde you faced would have been adjusted accordingly if you lacked one or many of the numerous advantages you listed, still making the event memorable and heroic. Granted, we aren't working with realism...but then again we can strive to cut down on some of the rediculousness that does exsist. If, that is, the majority would want to.

Daniel

[JspecWip]

Basically i'm sick of seeing the same kits in alfa I see on the Arena servers, go look on there and you see the cleric/fighter with FP&TS, or the mage/rouge. The only one we lack is the crazy monk but thats because surviving to effective level w/a monk is near impossible.
Reduce the spawns and we will free up the community to play characters not create meat grinders.

[AlmightyTDawg]

If we could clip Tumble and Expertise, that'd be a big boost.

Okay, you had me until this one. Expertise incurs a -5 penalty to hit, and Tumble doesn't work if you are wearing heavy armor or carrying a shield (Dex penalties apply to Tumble skill).

Tumble skill is one of the few assists rogues get to their AC. Nerfing it would be stupid if your goal is to prevent tanks, since it doesn't apply to tanks.

On Expertise, the way it's /supposed/ to work is that it tops out at your Base Attack Bonus. Both penalty to hit and bonus to AC both. So you wouldn't top someone out at +1 to AC and then have a -5 to hit, that'd be ridiculous. Where Expertise has its chops is when measured against a universal fighting defense option (+2 to AC, -4 to hit).

Look, the simple principle with Expertise and the others is preventing the magical only-hit-on-20 condition. The reason Expertise is so damning is that that +5 to AC, conceptually at 1st level, almost guarantees that. While it's not a great soloing tool, the fact remains that even with a -5, most CR1 mobs are flashing ACs in the 10 - 14 area, so you're still going to solo have a hit rate roughly 5-8x as large as your opponent. At low levels it takes advantage of the imbalance in attack bonus and AC that can arise, based off the simple 10/+0 starting point. Low level mobs have AC and AB that go up about +1 to +4, whereas PCs can bump AB by +3 and AC by +8 to +15 (with things like Expertise), so trading off some of that temporary AC is okay. In the later levels, it becomes a bit less useful, as your expertise tank is often your best fighter, but it allows as you put it the inanely stalwart defender.

Plus, in the situation you described, while heroic in one instance it's god awful writ large across ALFA. Tank + SAing archers is just silly. And ultimately, even without expertise, the same thing could be done with a slightly AB-reduced creature as well. One story doesn't make for a holistic approach to things.

As for Tumble, while dex penalties apply to the skill (avoiding AoOs in TS/FP isn't gonna happen), the bonus to AC stays based solely on ranks. Go ahead and create a creature, bump it to 12th level, give it 15 ranks in Tumble, and equp the FP+TS combo. It's a hardcode, and as many have pointed out, the basis behind the now cliche rogue/cleric or other such combos.

As for multiclassing, well people take levels in cleric because healing potions are retardedly expensive, large and heavy. I bet with armor move rates implemented you are going to see a lot more people taking a level in barbarian....

At least the barb move feat is hardcoded to not work in heavier armors. The multiclass concern is less just a couple levels in cleric, but the heavy cleric interspersed with a few cheap-benefits, like Rogue for Tumble, Evasion, traps and/or hiding, Ranger for the odd +4 Hide/MS bonus, Fighter for the feats, or other things.

[HEEGZ]

I think there should be plenty of heroic moments like Mulu describes. Any PC who is over level one will basically have a much better chance of surviving a bridge holding encounter. Although at lower levels I would think the odds of making the ultimate heroic sacrifice should be increased. (clerics help here) Also, given enough time, I don't see why a higher level PC couldn't have really great magical gear and actually survive such a heroic encounter. I think having more than 10 levels and lots of magical gear and survivability would make one (in)famous and staying IC alot more challenging, if not rewarding.

[AlmightyTDawg]

And there's nothing preventing that either. I mean, there are so many facets to it in terms of monster AB, monster HP, damage rate, and other things, that you don't need to bank on cheap statistical tricks to generate them.

I do think that comparisons to today's game, though, are almost like making the argument with damaged goods.

[BalvinSlice]

My complaint stems from the non fighters. Full Plate and a Tower Shield are the fighter's benefit, so is expertise and improved expertise, and the chance to have a high AC.

However, you can do pretty well as a non fighter in today's Alfa. A level 4 elf thief/ranger can easily have a 20 Dex, dodge, tumble, and a large shield.... Base 10, Leathers 2, Dex 5, Tumble 1, Shield 2, Dodge 1, Magic 3-5..... 24-26 AC

.... that is as good or better than a fighter with Full Plate, Tower, and 3 points of bonues (dex, magic, or dodge). This is my trouble with the current system.

My POV, take away the tumble bonus and make the magic harder to acquire.....

[Mulu]

Look, the simple principle with Expertise and the others is preventing the magical only-hit-on-20 condition. The reason Expertise is so damning is that that +5 to AC, conceptually at 1st level, almost guarantees that. While it's not a great soloing tool, the fact remains that even with a -5, most CR1 mobs are flashing ACs in the 10 - 14 area, so you're still going to solo have a hit rate roughly 5-8x as large as your opponent.

Yeah, but *soloing* you'd be facing 5-8 opponents, many of which are flanking you. My own experience with expertise is that it tends to balance out, since your opponents live a lot longer and therefore they get in a lot more swings, unless you have friends. Throw in fatigue from combat and wearing heavy armor, and those long battles become very dangerous.

But the real underlying problem here is that you are trying to balance an entire gameworld for 1st - 20th level characters, and that just aint gonna happen. The way to reduce the mob issue is to lower their xp to zero if you are higher level, and make their drops junk, thus eliminating the motivation to kill them. In other words, you can't make mobs that are doable by low levels but still challenging to high levels. Simply having a high bab and being able to kill everything quickly is sufficient, high AC or no, especially with a lot of hit points and access to healing.

The only other way would be to introduce a wounding script that affects all levels equally, making combat even more dangerous no matter what you are going up against. But that's another topic, and has its own balance issues.

Plus, in the situation you described, while heroic in one instance it's god awful writ large across ALFA. Tank + SAing archers is just silly. And ultimately, even without expertise, the same thing could be done with a slightly AB-reduced creature as well. One story doesn't make for a holistic approach to things.

But we still need to be able to have heroic stories. My point wasn't "change nothing from default" it was "be careful not to reduce the PC's to commoners." Some people may enjoy playing a barkeep, but I play this game to do something that is impossible to do in the real world.

As for Tumble, while dex penalties apply to the skill (avoiding AoOs in TS/FP isn't gonna happen), the bonus to AC stays based solely on ranks. Go ahead and create a creature, bump it to 12th level, give it 15 ranks in Tumble, and equp the FP+TS combo. It's a hardcode, and as many have pointed out, the basis behind the now cliche rogue/cleric or other such combos.

Now that I didn't know. Well, that needs to be fixed if it works the same in NWN2.

[Mulu]

Mulu, I imagine the horde you faced would have been adjusted accordingly if you lacked one or many of the numerous advantages you listed, still making the event memorable and heroic.

In that game, yes, because it is a DM'ed campaign. Just remember that in ALFA the vast majority of the time you are without any DM presence, so there is no situational balancing available.

[AlmightyTDawg]

Yeah, but *soloing* you'd be facing 5-8 opponents, many of which are flanking you. My own experience with expertise is that it tends to balance out, since your opponents live a lot longer and therefore they get in a lot more swings, unless you have friends. Throw in fatigue from combat and wearing heavy armor, and those long battles become very dangerous.

But the real underlying problem here is that you are trying to balance an entire gameworld for 1st - 20th level characters, and that just aint gonna happen. The way to reduce the mob issue is to lower their xp to zero if you are higher level, and make their drops junk, thus eliminating the motivation to kill them. In other words, you can't make mobs that are doable by low levels but still challenging to high levels. Simply having a high bab and being able to kill everything quickly is sufficient, high AC or no, especially with a lot of hit points and access to healing.

I'm really going off the simple presumption that if it's a) non-canon and b) produces an undesireable result, it's gotta go. Personally, I'd love to see us have a universal fighting defense option, as that would be the best answer to Expertise.

There are tons of examples and counter examples where expertise is good or bad depending. It's not the only tool in the arsenal. But it is one which, as the table well above indicates, can make for obsence shifts in the survival rate of characters. As you point out with flanking, the "real" magic number is "22" not just 20. But I've gone ahead with a number of simulations about how an Expertise fighter can dramatically shift affairs. Like a 3rd level fighter PC with a little bit of magic taking on, two to three other fighter PCs without Expertise and coming out the winner. Just for having reached that "magic number."

[HEEGZ]

In that game, yes, because it is a DM'ed campaign. Just remember that in ALFA the vast majority of the time you are without any DM presence, so there is no situational balancing available.

Hopefully that will change...

I've been typing and retyping this response for about 30 minutes, and kept editing it as new posts showed up, ugh. Anyways just going to throw this out there, as I can't be bothered to cut and paste ten posts worth of comments. Basically:

Cleric multiclass PCs should be watched pretty closely to make sure they stay IC to their bios and that the bio makes sense. However, there is no reason why a cleric can't tank almost as well as a Fighter, if they aren't min/maxed (ban) and are using a significant percentage of their divine magics to do so. They should either be supporting the group via healing, taking down monsters with direct damage spells or melee buffs, or tanking after buffs. I'm not wild about crazy multiclass combos, but some of them are mandatory from a RP perspective. For example, dwarven worshippers of Haela or Abbathor. A barbarian/cleric or rogue/cleric combo makes sense IC there. Having a level 9 rogue and taking a cleric level for the heals and no other reason is PGing and should be addressed. I guess I'm having a hard time understanding why there is hostility towards the cleric? It is a class with staying power and a popular mix in class, but is it being abused that much in an OOC fashion? I guess I've not been around long enough to see it.