Combat & PC armor class

[Rotku]

amulets of natural armor more rare

Then you get the problem of the haves and have nots. Favoritism and all its ugly sidenotes.

That should not be used as a reason why not to do something. There is always going to be the risk of that problem, in any situation with any solution. We have to trust our DMs to step above that line and not to play favouritism.

[AlmightyTDawg]

You can "educate" DMs to this effect, but there is simply no system around that lets one partition items except by way of static merchants. What does or doesn't exist in some orc's horde is fundamentally indeterminate. Note that in the DMG, it's neither more nor less rare than any other minor wondrous item. But what that would admittedly mean is that it's exceedingly unlikely on its own to be in a treasure chest.

Being that it's impossible to enforce, you have to rely on HDMs to do that kind of policework. Admin can't mandate something on such a broad level, an HDM can be very particular about the magic coming out of his or her zone.

Ronan is right that Dodge AC does not exist. It corresponds with specialized tactics or actions (i.e. total defense) or conditions. It's not a base magical property anywhere I've seen. The closest to a quasi-stackable AC are on Ioun stones (dusty rose, +1 Insight, 5000gp!?!), and quite obviously they weren't really intended to go above +1 (+2 to AC for 20k).

Might be wrong on Ammys of Natural Armor, as Plant-domain clerics have access to the spell as well. At least it's a nature thing, but a number of nature deities have strong enough followings to make the prospect of acquisition a bit higher.

[BalvinSlice]

I am a PnP guy. I like the old school stuff. Having said that and IMHO, you can't fault any player from buying AC points given the game mechanics and Alfa rules.

It is something that I always found funny about ALFA and here is as good a chance as any to spill the beans....

Why the difference in cost for a magic weapon vs. a magic AC point? Any player will tell you, buy the AC. Why? Simple, if you can't be hit, you can take all day to kill to the creature. ACs around 30 will make this a reality (29 AC = 10 + FP ( 8 ) + Tower (3) + Dex (1) + Dodge (1) + Tumble (1) + Magic (5) ~ Dodge, Natural, Shield, AC, Deflection (the 5 points of AC magic will cost you less then a plus 2 sword)

Even more importantly, ALFA has perma death. The most valuable stuff is the stuff that keeps you alive not the stuff that kills. Skill points in Hide, MS and any plus to Armor Class top that list!

What's the first two potions a player buys... Invisibility and Speed... hmm? Again, it is the stuff that keeps you alive. The reason most players don't use greatswords... no shield!

IMHO, I agree with most of the posts before....

1) Eliminate some of the AC adders
2) Increase the weight of towers (but add in the deflection factor for arrows)
3) As for raising the costs.... why mess with it, rather lower the coin levels... perhaps, check wealth on each level validation ((Player must empty all P-chests and have equipment on themselves at time of validation... oh my))

Its late, I am going to hate this post in the morning.... enjoy bashing me.

Cheers!

Balvin

[Fionn]

My point was that you can either jack up BAB on your mobs until they can hit the uber ACs, *attempt* to keep all DMs from handing out the +5 kit (AC, ShieldAC, Deflection, Dogde, NaturalAC) for 5K (+10 for 10K), or bypass AC on *some* mobs. The first results in an arms race, the second in favortism, and the third runs the risk of over-use.

Add in a few casters that target high ACs with Ray of Enfeeblement, Daze, Color Spray, even Magic Missile. Use random traps in/around the 'killing fields'. Use large mobs able to swallow whole (yes, it can be scripted right).

I don't see much use trying to correct this for NWN1 - there's too many PCs out there with AC30 or better when buffed. They also have immunities to Level Drain, Knockdown, Disease, Poison.... these need to be *seriously* restricted come NWN2.

[fluffmonster]

I don't see much use trying to correct this for NWN1 - there's too many PCs out there with AC30 or better when buffed. They also have immunities to Level Drain, Knockdown, Disease, Poison.... these need to be *seriously* restricted come NWN2.

NWN1 might be useful for practice runs, but truth...there won't be any meaningful putting of genies back in bottles here, not until NWN2 and the blank slate it provides.

Sounds like one useful option would be to simply make Dodge an illegal property and take it off everything except the Dodge feat...including tumble. That would increase PnP consistency anyway.

Then we need to b*tch slap the DMs who keep handin' this shite out. That's where the problem stems from. Now we have to take post-open barn door measures to try and resolve some of this. Most fighter PCs that are lvl 4-8 have ACs that are between 23 and 30. That's just stuuupid. So you guys sound like you're on the right track. Once we get this part figured out we need to school our DMs, or beat the hell outta o' them. One or the other.

groovy...how we gonna catch 'em?

[JspecWip]

I'd say the problem is more in the infamous heavy armour tower shield combo that you see just about every fighter pc in alfa running. Jack up the wieght of the tower shield, (Get rid of the ubersweet1337 claw skin for it as well...) and kill the heavy armour movement and now that tank with uber AC is a sitting duck against archers or a fighter w/spring attack.

Now there is no reason why a fighter/cleric/pali even a barb wouldn't use FP, besides the cost. It needs some drawbacks, and thats the number one way to solve the uber AC of alfas fighter Pc's.

I think killing the dodge bonus to AC from tumble is a fair idea as well, though it doesn't have a *Huge* effect on AC till a high level.

There is dodge AC in pnp at least 3.5, the dodge feat + dex bonus also some Prc's have dodge bonuses that stack w/the feat.

Limiting expertise to AB is fine by me, but killing expertise all together isn't cool IMO, its something that seperates a fighter type from the run of the mill dumb axe smashing orc.

I'd love to see an FR that more resembles whats in the source materials for Alfa2, if that means that the evil Pc's try to take over a kingdom when they hit 10th level so be it, its part of really making the realms come alive. It would then be up to the 10th level good pcs to stop them. This would be a hell of alot more fun than cowering from every militia man, or static goblin spawn IMO.

Opinions on how to acheave the ideal FR's varry, but that vision is strikingly similar. We want to see the Fr's as they're laid out, in all their glory. So when people Fuck it up by taking advantage of things with greed/self interests as their only goal, why don't we tell them to hit the road instead of changing the vision to stop them?

[Fionn]

Without the ability to Charge, I can see a lot of arguements against slowing Plate - especially if we don't have racial movement rates. If we can provide the ability to charge/overrun said archer, then it's all good :)

[Ronan]

groovy...how we gonna catch 'em?

I'm asking the ARs to put together their ideal logging system for NWN2 (as we are already starting the coding). Part of that will be logging DMs.

Applying a movement penalty for plate could be bad, I agree. I hope we'll find an elegant solution which mimics the spirit of the rules without causing the sort of problems reduced movement rates would.

[Inaubryn]

groovy...how we gonna catch 'em?

I'm asking the ARs to put together their ideal logging system for NWN2 (as we are already starting the coding). Part of that will be logging DMs.

Applying a movement penalty for plate could be bad, I agree. I hope we'll find an elegant solution which mimics the spirit of the rules without causing the sort of problems reduced movement rates would.

And aren't we suppose to be taggin' items with server tags? And I say if a specific DM makes an item, that DM needs to tag that item with his or her initials.

[Dorn]

Yes i'll pipe up in my usual role as counsel for the warrior classes.

I appreciate what you are all saying.

However you are taking the lower powered characters in NWN and going to make them weaker.

As a player of these classes (and yes once i had an ac of about 25) i can safely say that it is SO easy in ALFA to get completely rolled while your rogue/rangers and battle clerics waltz through life easily.

Just remember that in most cases ftr, barbs etc are NOT the ones that unbalance PCs vs Mobs by any stretch of the imagination.

That being said i have always agreed with movement rate impacts of armour, moves toreduce the tower shield/full plate clone etc are a good idea. Just make sure you completely peg the rogue, cleric and mage equipment while you're at it. In my time as a DM the rogue equipment i saw is by FAR the more over the top than melee equipment.

[Ronan]

As a player of these classes (and yes once i had an ac of about 25) i can safely say that it is SO easy in ALFA to get completely rolled while your rogue/rangers and battle clerics waltz through life easily.

Well, the purpose of this thread was not to focus on any one class. If you think about it, heavily-armored warriors are the least effected, and probably even (relatively) aided by restricting dodge, tumble, tower shield and natural armor AC types. The proposed changes reduce the sources of AC of ALL types, not just a fighter's, and places the heavily-armored warrior more squarly on the top of the AC-hierarchy, where he should be.

But, do keep in mind that casters of all sorts receive a nerf in NWN2. The horrid magic vestiment and magic weapon spells are nerfed from 1 AC per 3 levels to 1 AC per 4. Even still, clerics are probably always going to have the highest AC. Not much we can do about that, unless we want to start re-balancing the classes, which is a rather large can of worms to open.

I do agree on the comment on rogue items, a great many of them are rather nuts, especially given for far NWN misses the mark when it comes to stealth. Then there is how a 1st-level hin ranger can have a hide/MS of 19...

But, in the context of large numbers of low-AB mobs (where the AC-inflation causes the most problems), I would say it IS the fighters who unbalance things. No mage can afford the spells to take out a large number of monsters, so that tast generally falls upon the fighters. With a jacked-up AC, they can wade through weaker monsters with no chance of retaliation. A powerfull fighter or barb can dish out more punishment over time than any other class.

In the end I think it comes down to whether or not we want our PCs balanced to the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, or to NWN.

[danielmn]

I agree with a lot of the comments made here. By far...no class besides that of the cleric should have an equal footing with the fighter class (I've seen way too many uber-ac'd rogues and rangers) when it comes to AC because in most cases fighters spend their whole lives training in their armour. To say "oh my rogue has all these magical/fleetfooted bonuses to Ac is a bit unfair...to say your pc is extremely fast and has quick reaction time and therefore is just as protected as a guy wearing plate is a bit over the top. I do agree that tower shields are way overused, almost all fighters I've seen have carried the tower sheild/claw...I've rarely seen a small or large sheild implemented unless by a gnome or hin. Definatley a good idea to weigh those suckers down to make the fighter class and other classes think twice about their use. As above, I see a limitation to magick enhancements to AC to be a very good thing...driving down the need for uber static mobs. THe earning of these items should definately be tracked (ie. dm marked/reported to hdm of server) to ensure that favoritism is kept at a low..(ie. the character really has to earn the item, and is not just handed out through a chest after killing five orcs.) I would definately underline the fact that DM's be responsible for marking said items, reporting to the HDM how said item was earned. HDM's be responsible for monitoring this process, making sure everything is up to code and that players actually earned said item.

The decrease in AC items would def. sponsor a decrease in uber-spawn mobs and dm created mobs to handle the uber-AC classes as well as make each class even again as far as their own capabilities. As for favoratism, personally I trust the dms enough to believe that they aren't that immature...playing with friends is one thing...dming friends another...I believe the dm's are grown up enough to put favoratism aside... but in case they can't, HDM's need to be responsible for oversight.

All in all, a good, thoughtful thread.

Daniel M. Noah

[Dorn]

I HAVE suggested making anything over 1000 gold only buyable from DMs and so on, to keep the amount of people buying uber armours at low levels down. But that was said to be too mrestrictive.

I also suggested that major spawns leave a token rather then lots of loot. That way the DM can decide an appropriate reward considering the PCs current status in terms of wealth etc (which probably relates to AC).

if these two and some common sense in rewards were played out it would make things easier in reducing silly ACs so early.

I'd also support the tower shield being a mixed blessing instead of it's current free AC point situation.

[Overfilled Cup]

As long it adds to the fun and playability. I am against another labor intensive rule to bog down my enjoyment as either a player or a DM. Were suppose to be Roleplaying not rulelawyering.

I am hearing this stuff is cannon but how feasible is it in the NwN engine. Some parts moreso than others I imagine.

The sad thing is it will just expose the next unbalance as the fighters fall by the wayside and everyone plays sneaky rogues or buffed wizards or for one of the best ACs around the multiclass PC..*shrugs*

[Stormseeker]

Well as someone who has played everyclass i will spout my opinion.
When it comes to soloing its the multiclass that pushes the envelope. Any multiclass with combo's in cleric/ranger/ or even rogue, can heal and protect themselves. I dont need to explain the advantages of these in combo with other classes. If you have played nwn then you know.
Make magical gear harder to get is fine with me...but in nwn2 if the "arms" race is started then you will see a increase of multiclass pc's again.
Now a day's it seems that so many pc's are either multiclass or cleric,rogue,ranger's. Points to a problem doesnt it?