The 'value' of armour

Stormseeker · Post by **Stormseeker** » Tue Mar 21, 2006 2:49 pm

We require this for plate we require it for all armor. But we dont stop there. We require all pc's to "learn"about their magic items per pnp rules. Spellcaster's will be required the full amount of time to gain back their spells per pnp rules.
lol as a old pnp pro i could go on and on.
But why should i? This is a case where dm's should handle it on their own turf.(tpi is a prime example) Clearly dm's should ask them selves when building their mod and setting IF platemail is readily avalable in the area. If they have doubts or are not sure a source book on the area will tell them the answer.
I say no to going the way of sim's and scrypting every little detail. Lets just assume a lot of this happends when we log off and put our minds toward the story.

Dorn · Post by **Dorn** » Tue Mar 21, 2006 3:32 pm

Fair enough. Point retracted.
I should have thought it through more. More rules= teh suck.
I just hope DMs and builders do what we all expect them to in this area.
Case closed

Dorn · Post by **Dorn** » Tue Mar 21, 2006 3:42 pm

Joos wrote:
Dorn wrote:
Joos wrote:
Perhaps its very easy for you since you know what spawns to hit around alfa to make the endevour easy, but for most people its quite a challange. *looks at the member counter on the front page dwindle some more*
Thats unfair and untrue Joos. I do not and never have constantly 'hit spawns around alfa' to get levels. The vast vast vast majority of my exp from all my characters is from DM quest and RP awards. ESPECIALLY up through the low levels. It's not the way i play.
Yea, I know it was a bit unfair, but I got hugely annoyed by the fact that you started your first post in way that looked to me, as if just anyone could take their lvl 3 and full plate for granted. Which isnt the case, thus no need for more obnoxious house-rules.

I can only speak from my own experiences in ALFA mate. If it aint the norm i'm more than happy to be told so.

MShady · Post by **MShady** » Tue Mar 21, 2006 4:27 pm

If its within your wealth guidelines, so be it. Level 2-3 is about when you're able to afford it. This whole item fear thing is getting a bit out of hand when we're talking nerfing/removing mundane gear too. Now maybe raising the price a bit on account of fitting or something along those lines.. okay. But I think we're worrying too much here.

Mike

Fionn · Post by **Fionn** » Tue Mar 21, 2006 4:45 pm

Idon't think anyone was talking about removing Plate, just making a it a bit more realistic (and therefore valueable) to aquire. If we tie this in with PC crafting, the cost to the adventurer doesn't go up, but the value of their friends or trade does.

*shrugs*

I suppose if every mage knows how to use a Wand of Magic Missiles, so too should every Halfling be able to pull the Full Plate of an Orc and wear it. It's all about the rules after all.

JspecWip · Post by **JspecWip** » Tue Mar 21, 2006 5:08 pm

What about the lack of the negitives associated w/heavy armour?

Is this something no one wants addressed?

IMO it would balance things out nicely and also increase immersion. Also it would bring Alfa closer to Pnp. And because NWN2 will have mounts those that really want heavy armour can still have speed when mounted. Making these armours more inline with cannon decreases their advantages and will go alot farther in limiting FP proliferation than making it crazy expensive or hard to obtain. Because then people will just PG there way into getting it no matter what the rules are.

I hate seeing tanks in heavy armour and a towershield running right along side another pc in leathers, its bs.

dergon darkhelm · Post by **dergon darkhelm** » Tue Mar 21, 2006 5:27 pm

JspecWip wrote:What about the lack of the negitives associated w/heavy armour?

Is this something no one wants addressed? .

This thread originally started as an "access to full plate" discussion.

Bringing movement speeds/ time to don armor/etc into PnP balance would all be reasonable things to look at scripting.

Overfilled Cup · Post by **Overfilled Cup** » Tue Mar 21, 2006 6:00 pm

WARNING HIJACK

And because NWN2 will have mounts

NwN2 will not have mounts. It may again not even have horses in the box set.

JspecWip · Post by **JspecWip** » Tue Mar 21, 2006 6:12 pm

Well then all those tanks that want to wear the iron suit get screwed...

This was about people getting full plate to easily because it makes them to uber, make people in full plate less uber and then you don't have to worry about them getting it is all I'm saying

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Tue Mar 21, 2006 9:00 pm

Create some advantages to wear other forms of armor. If the best thing my character can wear is a full plate over a chain mail of course he'll choose the full plate but if it negates his dexterity (hampers his movements, makes him slower or hit with less precision.) he might choose a lighter armour that would work on his strenghts. Then we would see more types of fighters, not just the uber armoured tank.

ç i p h é r · Post by **ç i p h é r** » Tue Mar 21, 2006 9:38 pm

Stormseeker wrote:We require this for plate we require it for all armor. But we dont stop there. We require all pc's to "learn"about their magic items per pnp rules. Spellcaster's will be required the full amount of time to gain back their spells per pnp rules.
lol as a old pnp pro i could go on and on.
But why should i? This is a case where dm's should handle it on their own turf.(tpi is a prime example) Clearly dm's should ask them selves when building their mod and setting IF platemail is readily avalable in the area. If they have doubts or are not sure a source book on the area will tell them the answer.
I say no to going the way of sim's and scrypting every little detail. Lets just assume a lot of this happends when we log off and put our minds toward the story.

That's exactly what scripting the little details facilitates. All too often, the tendency at AFLA seems to be defer the responsibility to a DM to accommodate flexibility. But why should we burden DMs with all the mundane things nobody enjoys doing if we can reasonably script a solution? DMs need to enjoy their time spent DMing every bit as much as players need to enjoy their time spent playing, if not more. I think "policing" players is the last thing anyone considers to be fun.

What further complicates this kind of deference is that there's never going to be 24 hour DM coverage for all players like there is in PnP. So the reliance on a DM in the same manner just isn't practical and why "sims" is, in my view, a necessity in varying degrees. A script doesn't need a break or require a nap or ever get bored so it assures more fairness and consistency across the board in all things.

AlmightyTDawg · Post by **AlmightyTDawg** » Tue Mar 21, 2006 9:53 pm

It's certainly not impossible for game designers in this day and age to add all sorts of things to games. Even quite seriously under the title of real life. But there's a cost-benefit analysis done, and quite rightly they determine that the added value of a given piece of realism doesn't weigh against the frustration.

Now within most single-player setups, one can legitimately argue the primacy of the plot. In a multiplayer setting, with hobbyists who can range towards the simulationist, it's a little less clear. However, I think by-and-large, overdetailing is not appropriate for ALFA.

I don't believe Stormseeker's argument is towards DM's being "realism cops." Because I think you'll find that most don't care about the level of realism discussed within the scripts. Everything we do is a model, and a representation, and when the minutiae dominates the plot, it's just gotta go. DMs will add in realism when they feel it's relevant to a story, and rightfully will ignore it when it's a hinderance. In some cases, scripts don't allow that flexibility.

Certainly NWN's limitations forced us to accept things that we might otherwise script, but the interdependency of so many factors makes that a challenge that may not be worth the effort.

One can argue "fairness" because there are folks out there who given the opportunity will exploit. But a lot of attention needs to be paid to the sum total of the scripting work. Personally, I'm agnostic on armor refitting. I do become eerily worried when excessive details start justifying "player economies." As soon as I feel we're creeping into the grind territory, I'm gonna be pretty ticked off. Because, generally speaking, the kinds of "exploiters" you're targeting are the ones who can afford to put up with the details. See WoW, EQ, or any other MMORPG for more details.

Stormseeker · Post by **Stormseeker** » Tue Mar 21, 2006 10:48 pm

he he he tdawg said it pretty good. Let the dm's decide how "real" they want it on their dm time. Players of like mind will flock to them.
Looking at my playerhandbook it say's the poor wizard must have min of 8hr's of rest and then another 15mins-1hr to prepare the spells. That would suck having to wait on the wizard all the time wouldnt it?

Goahead with the armor time and i will pull a rabbit out of my hat.
*grins* i would ask my dm for a quest to get a ring of readiness for my armor.

Mulu · Post by **Mulu** » Wed Mar 22, 2006 8:33 pm

ç i p h é r wrote:What I really don't understand is why more challenge and realism is so badly received by many of you. The game is now at least 5 years old? NWN2 will essentially be more of the same but with nicer looks. If we don't introduce more options, details, and challenges for players to concern themselves with, what will keep them playing?

Roleplay. More specifically the imagination, humor, and dedication of other players and DM's.

Seriously, I've been playing this game in one incarnation or another since 1979, and I can tell you explicitly that I don't keep playing because the rules change or the tactical challenges increase. In fact, if anything those changes tend to be a detriment. I've DM'ed sessions that took place in a single room with no placeables. We had a great time. Any challenge should come from the roleplay, not the game itself.

Oh, and my only goal for racial armor is conformity to PnP and immersion. A human should not be able to kill a hin, strip him, and put on his armor (whether it's plate or leather), and vice versa. But as TDawg said there is a cost/benefit analysis to any addition. I'm not sure where that falls for this situation, on the plus or the minus. We've certainly done just fine without it so far.

What may be a compromise is a script that allows a PC to purchase armor through a conversation, rather than the normal merchant screen, thus being able to specify race... oh, and gender for that matter. Or... when a PC buys armor from a merchant using the normal screen it could be coded to be the correct race/gender restriction on purchase. Thus eliminating the "I don't want to build six versions of every armor" issue.

Then, the only real *hassle* would be from drops, which of course is the whole point. You shouldn't be able to put on dropped armor from a different race/gender, since presumably it is fitted for a person of that race/gender. Then you get the customizing option; drag it to an NPC armorsmith and pay some coin to get it fitted for less than "new off the rack" prices. Or, sell it for a small amount due to the fact that it is damaged.

Does magic armor still "shrink/expand to fit?" I thought that was an old 1e rule that didn't carry over.

Of course, you could always just rp the race/gender restrictions and take the armor to a customizing NPC for look before using.