Restriction: Curse Song

[Dorn]

Now now.

We are trying to replicate the FR here. Some non-PnP stuff is ruled out, others allowed in. Decisions have probably been through appropriate channels with reference to the direction alfa should take so isn't 'super-lame' it's just a particular course this PW is taking.

While i'd prefer some things stayed in, it's the will of the community enacted through elected admins. However since there's abeen a long time since this decision is made, and it seems to be a borderline call (some pnp in, some out) i asked the question.

Nothing's lame about this. The tech team and otehr groups have done a HUGE amount to add to teh NWN2 expereince and shouldn't be hassled.

[Rotku]

Oh, I agree with you about the Cursed Song, Mulu. Still doesn't change the fact you're just stirring the pot trying to get a reaction

HEEGZ is busy with real life at the moment. I am sure once things calm down (I believe he mentioned today as a date) that he will chip in and you will hear an official word on it. No point jumping to conclusions and shouting how unfair life is. Settle down and wait a couple of days and if we still haven't heard I'll go bug him about it myself. Alternatively, someone could try PMing Veilan and ask him to throw his 2c in.

[Rotku]

Also, just to touch on something Dorn mentioned in his last post. If you want to see something changed, time and experience has taught me the best way to see these changes is to help out yourself. Volunteer to help on the Standards Team. Offer to help with testing. Even run for Admin. There are many ways one can contribute to a project like ALFA, and through contributing try and drive things in the direction they believe we should be moving. Bringing up these issues on the forums work to a certain extent, but volunteering to help will work a hell of a lot better.

To give you an idea of how things currently are (as I know many people aren't such forum creatures as some of us):

• No Admin position has seen a serious challenger step since mid-08, effectively leaving each election since then as a One-Horse race;
• We currently have only two people seriously involved at all with the tech side of things;
• We are constantly running very very short on DMs, to the stage where TSMs only DM not AFK was going through a very busy patch in RL, and BG only had 1 DM not AFK;
• There is a constant worry among Admin and other members of the community that if we loose just one of a few key contributers things will seriously slip
• Building of any areas in ALFA tends to come down to a very small handful of genersou folk who are willing to give up some time to help

As Player Admin I am currently very fortunate in that I have such an active group of volunteers who are willing to help me process applications and do other small little jobs. But you have to realize that not everyone is as fortunate as myself. Ask AL how difficult it is to find anyone to help with serious scripting jobs or keeping tabs on Custom Content. Ask zic how hard it is to find people to lend a hand with site maintenance or trying to keep on top of the many many requests he gets for site additions. Ask dobs (or probably Faeryl) how hard it is to get people to lend a hand with promoting ALFA off-site. Or even ask HEEGZ how hard it is to find people to do Live DMing or help test Beta Servers.

My point is two fold. First, we are short of volunteers - do not expect a reply at the drop of a hat. Give us some time before saying how super lame things are.

And second, and far more importantly, that we DO need volunteers. If you want to see something changed - whether it is improving the application system (like I wished to do), or loosing up some Standards - volunteer to help. Not only will this help the process along, but people will tend to be much more willing to be swayed by your ideas than they would otherwise.

Now don't get me wrong - I'm not parroting that old line that I've heard so many times, "if you don't contribute you shouldn't complain." I couldn't disagree more with that thought. All I am pointing out here is that we do need more volunteers and if you do want things changed, volunteering will certainly help. And finally, if you expect others to make these changes, patience is very important. We will try and do what we can, but it often won't happen straight away.

[Mulu]

Oh, I agree with you about the Cursed Song, Mulu. Still doesn't change the fact you're just stirring the pot trying to get a reaction

Yes, in ALFA telling the truth is trolling.

I wouldn't bother trying to get the rule changed. The latest rule from Standards/DMA is "we don't undo rulings unless it's breaking the game," or words to that effect.

Perhaps the reaction I'm trying to get is, "maybe we shouldn't ban everything after all."

[HEEGZ]

Most of these things were changed well before I was DMA. My main concern is that I would like to avoid constantly dumping changes on our already overworked tech person. If every DMA that came along changed the rulings of prior DMA, then there would be a never ending list of changes.

I will be happy to revisit anything that is broken, and all that is required is to send a PM to someone on the Standards Team to initiate a discussion in that forum. I tend to agree with almost every topic where people are expressing interest in unbanning something. The issue is that we are essentially creating a lot of work, which in essence is only going to be undoing older work that was already done.

I'd rather focus our efforts on creating new content, and our tech guy has said as much as well. If something is truly broken then we can fix it if it is needed. Also, the attitudes from a few select people are getting old and I'll probably just start deleting the annoying comments that only serve to demoralize people. Please stop.

[Mulu]

My main concern is that I would like to avoid constantly dumping changes on our already overworked tech person. If every DMA that came along changed the rulings of prior DMA, then there would be a never ending list of changes.

That makes a lot of sense, but do realize there are plenty of other nerfs in the pipeline, so maybe the policy should be, "don't take things away from the game unless you absolutely have to" in order to reduce the amount of work for the already overworked tech person. Just a rational, non-annoying thought.

[Brokenbone]

On the plus (?) side, NWN2 bards function like a ring of regeneration that everyone within range of them can share, starting at level 7. Nothing like that in PnP (some of the other inspirations though are "close enough"), so this puts even the highest level healing-focussed clerics to shame (Mass Cure Wounds spells take up slots, unlike humming a regeneration inspiration for as long as it takes to heal all your party's boo boos).

So yeah, some non PnP things have been nipped, others have been complained about, but not pruned out.

[HEEGZ]

To be honest, I was a bit surprised to find out that Curse Song had been removed, but the regenerating song was left in place, as it's extremely powerful.

[HEEGZ]

My main concern is that I would like to avoid constantly dumping changes on our already overworked tech person. If every DMA that came along changed the rulings of prior DMA, then there would be a never ending list of changes.

That makes a lot of sense, but do realize there are plenty of other nerfs in the pipeline, so maybe the policy should be, "don't take things away from the game unless you absolutely have to" in order to reduce the amount of work for the already overworked tech person. Just a rational, non-annoying thought.

I agree with what you've said here, and that is my general philosophy as well. Although I don't believe that "there are plenty of nerfs in the pipeline", can you be more specific?

[Veilan]

Well, admittedly we'll still have to check about the regenerating bard song, which is atrocious. Apart from that, I too would like to know what more "nerfs" (and calling altering the ludicrously overpowered NWN 2 interpretations for a CRPG "nerfs" is of course naught but populist demagoguery) are in "the" (what?) pipeline.

[danielmn]

I never notice the restrictions really, since there aren't any on rp. Maybe that's just me though....

[Mulu]

can you be more specific?

Veilan already started to answer that for me, so probably best to just ask him.

I never notice the restrictions really, since there aren't any on rp. Maybe that's just me though....

Apparently you've never tried to RP a trapper.

[danielmn]

Sure have, rped just fine for me.... Christophens record was pretty good, as was Sariens, on two seperate servers... that was nwn1 though, so again, could just be me.... Having said that, during my nwn1 playing I can say I saw what I would consider abuse of laying traps, ie. taking 45 seconds to set three traps right before a known encounter and the traps do massive damage. A bit excessive considering canon. I can totally agree that "traps" should be a dungeonesk type of occurance, where those who have gone before took many weeks/months to set up/make a trap. I will say that I would agree with PC's being allowed minor traps sans DM, for the trip wire/flexible spiked branch sort of thing...but on the whole, traps SHOULD take a while to set up, requiring dm support. I imagine if a trapper were to seek such support they would get it.

Next please.

[johnlewismcleod]

With all due respect to our standards staff and coders, (and players of fighter/clerics ), the issue most players who attempt to play skill based PC's find objectionable, is that these changes seem to be often made in a "tunnel vision" manner, without taking the big picture and balance into account,i.e....is this specific feat/ability cannon?...no?...then strip it.

By attacking issues in this way, some of us feel that given the limitations of possible interaction with the ALFA server as it exists, these classes have been left with very little excuse for existence.

In PnP there are reams of things these classes can do to be useful and interesting, but in our PW there is very little they can do day to day without a DM in control and expending time and effort making it possible.

We are where we are now, of course, and our PW is indeed wonderful and fun, but I and others hope that from this point further, when an issue is raised as to whether any specific ability/feat/spell is examined and discussed as to whether to axe it, some thought is given as to what is left to these classes IG after it is taken.

While fighter class can basically do IG everything it can do in PNP, the skill based classes have extremely limited opportunity to employ their skills IG. This is why many feel that further weakening them is making the classes unbalanced IG.

Canon is indesputably a noble goal, but balance with regards to the NWN2 interface is essential as well.

So far, from what I gathered from this discussion, the end result is likely to be giving nothing back (because, of course, that wouldn't be canon), but now let's take song of regeneration because it's uber and non-canon.

I don't want to disparage in any way the efforts of our standards team or any of the many volunteers who have put so much work into making ALFA the wonderful world it is, I'm just attempting to explain why many people (myself included) get a bit miffed when yet another skill/feat/bard spell gets the axe (i.e. appraise, able learner, cure minor wounds, bardsong, etc.). While appraise, able learner might be thought to be cross-class feats, the skill based classes are most effected because these classes have the points to use on them.

Balance...balance...balance...please

[mr duncan]

Inspire Regeneration dosnt come to bards until level seven. By that time a cleric is a spewing fountain of healing


J