XP and GP and HD, oh my!

[Rotku]

Welcome to the Post-Rusty World, daniel

I know about the incident your talking about. It had to be one of the lower points as far as the past three or so years go. I feel ALFA has changed a lot since then. I can't promise that in the future there won't be some lunatic who comes along and starts trying to burn people on stakes, but for now, that will not happen.

[Riotnrrd]

The days of persecuting over-wealthed PCs are long gone. And thank the gods for that.

I sincerely hope this is true!!!

[johnlewismcleod]

I sincerely hope this is true!!!

Heh...thieves take note

[NickD]

I, for one, appreciated what Rusty attempted to do in his term as DMA. It's just that his methods were... somewhat lacking.

[Rotku]

I, for one, appreciated what Rusty attempted to do in his term as DMA. It's just that his methods were... somewhat lacking.

Agreed. Not saying he didn't do a lot of good things. Just this particular incident. Well, I'm not going to go into any further details on it. Some things are best left resting.

[HEEGZ]

I conclude the implication is that high end wealth is somehow more dangerous to our game world than low end wealth. I can only assume the reason for this might be that low end wealth negatively affects a single PC (i.e. death due to unanticipated challenges), whereas high end wealth can negatively affect... other players? The game world? DM events?

A lot of this has been related to the fact that we permit CvC, and there must be limits of some sort. This is also why there are also guidelines for the creation of items. When I first joined ALFA, the majority of players seemed to desire slow to moderate progression and low to moderate wealth levels. I am not sure what the present opinion of our player base is, but it is somewhat different from our NWN1 servers.

[HEEGZ]

Well, I still remember the discussions with TDawg on the subject. The intent of the wealth guidelines was absolutely to ensure that underwealthed PC's get bigger rewards and overwealthed PC's get smaller rewards, to ensure gameworld balance. It's not about punishment or reward, in fact the guidelines were an attempt to avoid the very suspicion and witchhunting practices that ALFA tends to gravitate towards, and which have already been seen in this thread. Overwealthed? No need to investigate, just reduce future awards. Underwealthed? No need to chastise their playstyle or claim they need to make more IC friends, just increase their rewards.

Simple. Effective. Not Used.

I just thought I would point out that I archived the guidelines that were created with much input from TDawg. The current guidelines were copied from a decision of the Admin a couple years ago, which may or may not have had input from TDawg. I have made a few revisions for the sake of balance, but the majority of our Wealth and XP Guidelines go back several years and from many Administrations ago.

If anyone has some constructive suggestions for changes, either to the guidelines themselves, or for me to pass on to the DMs, please drop me a quick note.

[Mulu]

I think the issue isn’t the guidelines themselves; it took a lot of math to get there but the end result seems fine. Rather the issue is how they are, or are not, implemented.

It's a tad frustrating to see these guidelines, which have been in existence for years now as you point out, not only go unused but be misunderstood by admin and DM's still to this day. After going through the thread a second time, I'd like to clear up a few specific misperceptions about the guidelines based on my own time in Standards.

When a PC goes significantly "underawarded" for long enough, it leaves a wide range of freedom to the DMs who may run plots involving a customized reward down the line.

It also creates gameworld imbalance and dramatically increases the probability of that PC not surviving long enough to get its due reward. Being poor can kill you here.

Further, it puts that underwealthed PC at a significant disadvantage in any CvC situation with an average or above average wealthed PC. Now, you can say such imbalances are IC, but that's not really true. They tend to be due to differences in OOC factors like amount of playtime available, twitch skills, etc.

So, as players, the best approach is to be patient, participate in DM'ed events and during DM timeslots when possible, try not to retire/die too often

Sit in a tavern and wait for DM'ed events. Not a very fun gameworld, especially if there aren't very many DM'ed events. DM's may be able to adjust encounters for underwealthed PC, but scripted statics cannot. Being underwealthed therefore inhibits being able to play the game without a DM. It's not like ALFA is swimming in DM's.

"One shot" DM events are where you can make up a fairly credible set of reasons for a perfectly tailored reward that suits a challenge.

Yes. For a significantly underwealthed PC, the challenge need not even match the reward. In fact it technically couldn't, the whole point is the PC is greatly weakened due to being underwealthed and therefore can't take on level appropriate encounters. The wealth correction need only be IC. Heck, if you can loot a wealthy dead PC as a DM'less windfall, why can't you loot a wealthy dead NPC adventurer as a DM'ed wealth correction? It should take no longer than 5 minutes of DM time to correct a wealth imbalance upwards IC'ly. Of course more meaningful and well rp'ed rebalancing should be preferred for obvious reasons, but isn’t always available. Better to balance out the PC than leave it as a kill waiting to happen in hopes that “someday their plot will come.”

Now, if a player wants to play an underwealthed and nerfed PC as a playstyle choice, that's fine too. More power to you. It is just a guideline, after all, it isn’t mandatory. Just realize you are doing so in a gameworld that is balanced for optimized PCs run by skilled players, in other words strong builds and high twitch skills are the yardstick for all static content. Caveat emptor.

[Mulu]

if your pc doesnt have the wealth to go on a dm whatever, then dont go.

So, if you're too underwealthed to survive statics and too underwealthed to survive DM'ed sessions, what exactly are you supposed to do other than sit in a tavern and remain underwealthed and frozen in level? This translates into: "Don't play. Go away." ALFA isn't exactly swimming in players either.

if a PC is extremely low or extremely high, they should contact a DM to see if action should be taken.

But if you do and you're too low, you'll be labeled with an "entitlement" attitude and sneered at. You may even get a "watch this person" thread started on you.

The question of "spellbook value" is a significant one when considering net worth of a wizard PC though

Consider that cleric PCs do have access to all spells of a given level, and don't have to pay anything monetarily for them

And the winner is... Cleric! As usual. Seriously, just play a cleric and stop whining already!
ALFC, a land for clerics.

I don't think it's a good idea to have pc's not be able to afford lvl appropriate items to help them survive, especially in a dangerous/permadeath world like ALFA.

Yep.

I certainly never meant to suggest that anyone is entitled to wealth at the guidelines.

Because I know that such a suggestion would get me sneered at....

As I said before, PC's are entitled to wealth at the guidelines. But it's not done for the PC's benefit, it's for gameworld balance. In other words, it's not an entitlement at all, it's a fix to make up for the significant imbalances that inevitably occur in a largely DM'less environment.

This is the issue. Call it the Third Law of Gamedynamics, based on Entropy:
In a DM'less environment, PC's will tend towards imbalance and significant power differentiation due to a combination of playstyle differences, build choices, play time availability, gameworld design that favors certain playstyles and builds, and simple randomness like windfall corpse finds and good/bad dice rolls against statics.

This fact should be patently obvious. The cure is actually using Wealth and XP guidelines. That's why we made them. They really will improve gameplay on ALFA if employed. I promise. They were designed to.

There are no wealth or xp guidelines in a traditional DM'ed campaign with an experienced DM. They are unnecessary. I'm not looking at a chart when I place loot in a chest for my Saturday Evening group. I don't have to. And yet they are a well balanced group internally and within the context of their gameworld. Of course they are, everything they have I specifically placed for them or put into a merchant's inventory, as I turn off random loot drops and inventoried every merchant manually. The balance that creates makes the game more fun and keeps the players coming back, which is the ultimate goal. You can’t do that in a PW, there is no captain at the ship’s wheel most of the time, but you can make course corrections as you go to stay in the preferred zone of balance.

So, let's recap.
1. Wealth is needed to survive on ALFA's servers, unless you just hide in town.
2. Some character builds are more effective in ALFA, eg clerics and fighters.
3. Some players have greater twitch skills and knowledge of the game mechanics, and will therefore have more PC wealth and power than others due to being able to take greater risks, more often, and survive them.
4. This gameworld tends to be built and balanced for these players and characters.
5. DM time is rare.
6. Statics are potentially lethal, because they are designed to be challenging for strong and properly equipped PC’s run by players with decent twitch skills. Well, this is really just a restatement of #4.
7. Player choices, abilities, and randomness dictates drift in wealth and xp over time among PC's.
8. DM's following guidelines will repair the damage to gameworld balance and play frustration that results from DM'less time in game, and all of the other factors mentioned above.
9. TDawg spent hundreds of hours on those guidelines. Don't let his efforts go to waste.

[Mulu]

As I was about to navigate away, I thought of a really quick and IC way to rebalance overwealthed PC's that shouldn't bend the player's nose:

A bank.

It takes the wealth out of the game, and potentially allows the PC to use it in the future after they've leveled more.

[HEEGZ]

Just to be clear, PCs are not entitled to wealth within the guidelines. It is understood however that DMs should increase the wealth of PCs that are below the minimum range. Much of the observations Mulu points out are true of course, with the exception I have just noted.

[Brother Humphrey]

As I was about to navigate away, I thought of a really quick and IC way to rebalance overwealthed PC's that shouldn't bend the player's nose:

A bank.

It takes the wealth out of the game, and potentially allows the PC to use it in the future after they've leveled more.

I posted that in the suggestions box a while ago, but yeah, it'd make it a much safer to wander wound with petty cash while leaving the rest safe and sound behind wizardlocked doors.

[danielmn]

As I was about to navigate away, I thought of a really quick and IC way to rebalance overwealthed PC's that shouldn't bend the player's nose:

A bank.

It takes the wealth out of the game, and potentially allows the PC to use it in the future after they've leveled more.

I posted that in the suggestions box a while ago, but yeah, it'd make it a much safer to wander wound with petty cash while leaving the rest safe and sound behind wizardlocked doors.

For some PC's, better yet, the church's own coffers. the church can use the gold now, and pay you with what they earn in tithes later when you need the money back.

[Brother Humphrey]

Works for me!

[paazin]

As I was about to navigate away, I thought of a really quick and IC way to rebalance overwealthed PC's that shouldn't bend the player's nose:

A bank.

It takes the wealth out of the game, and potentially allows the PC to use it in the future after they've leveled more.

I posted that in the suggestions box a while ago, but yeah, it'd make it a much safer to wander wound with petty cash while leaving the rest safe and sound behind wizardlocked doors.

For some PC's, better yet, the church's own coffers. the church can use the gold now, and pay you with what they earn in tithes later when you need the money back.

Or give you a discount on all the tithes that you're expected to pay later