A house divided against itself cannot stand

[paazin]

I've been made uneasy by the raw nerve that was hit recently, upon the release of patch 1.69 for NWN1.

I was unaware of any deep-seated hatred or strife between the two platforms we cover. Certainly there are issues with divided attentions, NWN2 as the "big new thing" tends to draw many of our building and tech resources as we play "catch up" and make our NWN2 platform of the same quality our NWN1 platform is today.

But I grow concerned of the talk that our NWN1 group feels abandoned; both NWN1 and NWN2 are vital parts of our community. Schism and division are only a hindrance, drawing away time that could be better spent.

Those who feel maligned, what are your complaints? How do you feel we can improve, be more inclusive? What do you suggest be done?

[indio]

You're right to ask, pazzin.

I stumbled across the same thing, quite unexpectedly, when I praised the NWN2 roleplaying as being the best I'd seen, and angered at least 1 NWN1 player (If only they knew how bad my memory was, and how much shit Coby would give me for saying as much).

It never crossed my mind that such a thing were possible, which is precisely why it's a good thing to ask about publically. I'd be really interested to hear expressions of concern as well. The more open and honest we can be the better.

[LancasterX_2]

It is just a platform, why make it two separate games?

Why can't PC's from NWN1 servers seemlessly be able to 'port' to NWN2 servers and visa versa with their same characters. It would unite the community.

All you need is one or two people to act as the 'Bridge DM' that rebuilds PC's on either side when they transfer. Porting from TSM to Sembia would have to be a request made by a PM to the "Bridge DM" so that they could mnake the appropriate adjustments.

I'd love to play on Sembia with my TSM PC. Plus it would give DM's on TSM a chance to play.

[ThinkTank]

[Killthorne]

I don't think it's a matter of transferring PC's over from NWN1 to 2. It's the fact that some people really like NWN1, the tons of work put into it already, and/or do not need/want/have the means to buy a brand new spankin' computer to run NWN2.

Not everyone has money coming out of their ears or rears.

( Certainly doesn't come out of mine... )

~Killthorne~

[paazin]

It is just a platform, why make it two separate games?

Why can't PC's from NWN1 servers seemlessly be able to 'port' to NWN2 servers and visa versa with their same characters. It would unite the community.

All you need is one or two people to act as the 'Bridge DM' that rebuilds PC's on either side when they transfer. Porting from TSM to Sembia would have to be a request made by a PM to the "Bridge DM" so that they could mnake the appropriate adjustments.

I'd love to play on Sembia with my TSM PC. Plus it would give DM's on TSM a chance to play.

It's a thought, certainly. And sounds like it'd be a fun one at that - though transfers would have to be pretty rare to keep the poor DM's sanity about.

One hitch is our admin decision a while back that stated that no NWN1 PCs will transfer to NWN2. I wouldn't mind putting something like that up to a vote again and see what people think.

I'd be happy to hear any other ideas people had as well

[Mulu]

There have been a lot of comments made by NWN2 build team folk about NWN1 being the past and NWN2 being the future, NWN1 needs no further support, NWN1 is broken beyond repair (funny that, given how borked NWN2 is), NWN2 is a chance to recreate ALFA the right way, NWN1 needs to be abandoned to make way for NWN2 and loyalty to NWN1 is harming NWN2 growth, etc. Well, here's a good example of the original discussion back in 2006, one in which Cipher made it pretty darn clear he wanted NWN1 to just go away. I love this quote in particular:

But, i believe most people who presently play NWN1 will transition to NWN2 within this next year.

ROFL.

Personally, I think NWN1 is going to outlast NWN2, especially given the 4-6x greater playerbase, but that's not really the issue.

I was struck by something Kate said about how if ALFA players transferred to an MKII server it would no longer be ALFA. Isn't anywhere the membership plays together ALFA? I don't see ALFA as a specific set of haks, or a specific set of in game rules or a set of standards or a certain platform. It's us. As Mik put it once: ALFA is a community, and the game we play is D&D using NWN1 and NWN2, or words to that affect. It wasn't the platform addition by itself that split the community, it was the mentality of those that saw it as leaving the old for the new, and the reaction of those staying behind as being left behind. I even recall some comments made to the effect that NWN1 should be allowed to die.

NWN2 is newer, but it's not really objectively better. Overall each platform has its different strengths and weaknesses, so which you prefer will be a matter of taste. At NWC, the vast majority of the members regard NWN1 as the superior platform, for example, due to our style of build-as-you-go campaigning, a difficult proposition at best using NWN2. We also still have players using dial-up, and tend to host games on our personal computers, both of which require using NWN1. Ease of building, ease of hosting, lower hardware requirements, better DM tools, bigger playerbase, larger and more varied assortment of custom content, and now prettier tilesets... it's a no brainer really for the weekend campaign crowd. For those who prefer the greater power offered by NWN2, well it's a no brainer for them as well.

The NWN2 ALFA servers need more work, to be sure, but it's not, "the future of ALFA" as Cipher put it (or words to that effect). Both platforms are, or should be. Heck, some people play by post here too.... That's also ALFA.

I'll let the techs jump all over the infeasibility of transferring PC's between platforms. They're also operating on different timelines, with different canon histories and events. It was still a good idea, or at least I appreciate the intent, but if a bridge is to be built it needs to built among the folks, not the machines.

[Misty]

First, disclaimer here in that I'm tired.



The schism began with NWN2 being the newer, bigger, better thing out. Which is cool, most people would surely like to play if they could. Much as I'd like to drive the newest Porsche, I simply cannot.

The first issue is financial ability. Many simply cannot afford a new rig, or it is low on the list of priorities for other reasons. Rather than being met with understanding, I've seen a number of posts saying how easy it is to get a NWN2 capable rig. I suppose they're just being helpful, so it's no big deal.



Then come the posts asking for builders for NWN2. Then begging. Then vitriol and bile for the 'lazy sons of bitches who just want to mooch off the community instead of helping out' (yes, paraphrasing here). Bad enough we cannot afford the new system to play the newest toys, but now we're condemned for this lack. Kick us while we're down.



NWN1 techwork did fall by the wayside for many months. Then we get a few bold souls willing to give it a shot with little to no guidance.


Then one is fired from the team. I still don't understand this part, because there was no transparency with the issues. Whatever the case, one of the hardest working contributors was pushed out.


And I wouldn't say angry, but hearing praise for RP in NWN2 server being the best anyone's ever seen is either a slap in the face for everyone who came before, or terribly myopic. What happened to the hundreds of players in the original platform for the last.. what was it.. 5 years? *shrugs* whatever. I am probably being too sensitive here, but paazin asked for blunt truth.


And of course, the latest debacle - expecting some sort of administrating to get done so I could volunteer led to the VERY clear message to 'fix it your damn self'.


So... eh... flame away. I'm sure I deserve it.

[fluffmonster]

We didn't permit PC movement between platforms because it was a bad idea. It would require a whole institutional mechanism to manually edit every bic every time the player went between platforms, there's no automation. When we already have problems with enough volunteers, such a move would be pretty stupid.

[White Warlock]

Mulu, there is no one particular person at fault here. Would be better not to lay blame.

Paazin, i am actually surprised you and others did not know about the schism. It has existed for some years now, even before NWN2 went on the shelves. Administrative decisions put NWN1 on the backburner, while putting all the talents to focus on NWN2. Before i reorganized the forums a year ago, NWN1 servers were so far down near the bottom of the forum list. I wanted to add extra sections regarding NWN1 technical, etc, but was harangued so harshly for my initial efforts that I opted to step off rather than feed the trolls.

Simply stated, PR for NWN1 was completely dropped. Few additional efforts, supported by the administration, were made to obtain more members or NWN1 talents. NWN1 servers with problems had to beg for attention, new NWN1 content was not being added to the haks, and the NWN1 servers as a whole were left in limbo. Players and DMs slowly dwindled away as more and more fanfare was made about NWN2, and less and less space was allocated to NWN1 in the forums, and in the minds of the administrators.

I have repeatedly been approached by disgruntled NWN1 players and dms (HDMs as well) regarding the state of NWN1 in ALFA. Many wish for a resolution to their second-class citizen status, whilst many others simply want to take their toys and completely break away from the ALFA project.

It is, and it has been, a rather big problem. I brought it up many times in the past, but as things go around here... NWN2 takes precedence.

Last comment. Some feel NWN1 is old news. Actually, i like both platforms, for different reasons. I think ALFA's NWN1 could have been vastly improved if it was redone altogether so many years ago, but said recommendations were dismissed. People were having fun ingame, and that was all that mattered to them. I cannot argue such logic, but i always thought those haks were cumbersome and a burden for new members to download. Many NWN2 enthusiasts hold to the same opinion, and thus instead of reworking NWN1, they opted to put their energies to NWN2. Can't blame them, when the core NWN1 population stood resolute in their unwillingness to compromise (note: that may very well not be the case now, but it was very much the case then).

Respectfully,
Roy

p.s. the whole NWN1/NWN2 player thing has never been an issue of contention. Something so petty did not foster the present tensions.

[MorbidKate]

There have been a lot of comments made by NWN2 build team folk about NWN1 being the past and NWN2 being the future, NWN1 needs no further support, etc. Personally, I think NWN1 is going to outlast NWN2, especially given the 4-6x greater playerbase, but that's not really the issue.

I was struck by something Kate said about how if ALFA players transferred to an MKII server it would no longer be ALFA. Isn't anywhere the membership plays together ALFA? I don't see ALFA as a specific set of haks, or a specific set of in game rules or a set of standards or a certain platform. It's us. As Mik put it once: ALFA is a community, and the game we play is D&D using NWN1 and NWN2, or words to that affect. It wasn't the platform addition by itself that split the community, it was the mentality of those that saw it as leaving the old for the new, and the reaction of those staying behind as being left behind. NWN2 is new, but it's not really objectively better. Overall each platform has its different strengths and weaknesses, so which you prefer will be a matter of taste. NWN2 needs more work, to be sure, but it's not, "the future of ALFA" as Cipher put it. Both platforms are, or should be. Heck, some people play by post here too.... That's also ALFA.

I'll let the techs jump all over the infeasibility of transferring PC's between platforms. They're also operating on different timelines, with different canon histories and events. It was still a good idea, but if a bridge is to be built, it needs to built among the folks, not the machines.

Mulu,

My reference to "MK II" servers not being a part of ALFA was a direct result of you saying there would be a vault connection only to allow a "One way" port of characters to your server where nothing running on it would be compatible with the rest of our NWN1 servers. Any player wanting to travel back to another ALFA server would require a full rebuild and rekit. Simply put, they are stuck.

ALFA is about the ability to travel parts of Faerun that have been created for the players. You proposed to sever that link and that's a non-starter in my book as is the pipe dream of rebuilding multiple NWN1 servers from scratch.

You no longer play here, have never DMd here that I'm aware of and have never built anything for any of ALFAs servers for a number of reasons you've given previously. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Now suddenly you want to build an ALFA server from scratch? I just don't get it but once we get 1.69 compatible your welcome to submit a server proposal as I'd certainly like to try it out with my NWN1 toon. You know I like you and wished you were still playing here so please don't take anything I"ve said as an attack, it's just disagreement.

As for the larger issue, I agree with others who've said that NWN2 is the future because as more expansions and especially more community content (RWS Tiles) becomes available the better sandboxes we'll be able to create for people to play in. Everyone knows it took years for NWN1 to mature but that's no reason do drop support for our NWN1 servers. Bioware patches for it are slowing greatly so I don't envision a lot of overhead after 1.69. Volunteers are already stepping forward to discuss how we can upgrade our NWN1 servers to be compatible which is exactly what usually happens here when a challenge presents itself. After the usual drama of course

We've seen many threads these past months about "Us" and "Them" and concerns about receiving Tech Admin support for the "old" platform so it's no surprise at all that Cipher's comment that supporting NWN1 was no longer his responsibility drew a quick reaction. Especially since every previous TA did their best to help out when needed or asked for help when swamped. It's a shame that poorly worded posts on both sides caused him to quit a bit sooner than he was planning too.

In the end, this isn't a J.O.B. and too many people seem to forget that. It's a volunteer effort and such ventures require a social skill set that requires a delicate touch. Perhaps if people communicated more as if they were standing in front of the recipient of their post or PM there would be a bit more self-editing and that would go a long way.

Kate

[White Warlock]

well said Kate.

[Magile]

The schism began with NWN2 being the newer, bigger, better thing out. Which is cool, most people would surely like to play if they could. Much as I'd like to drive the newest Porsche, I simply cannot.

...

And I wouldn't say angry, but hearing praise for RP in NWN2 server being the best anyone's ever seen is either a slap in the face for everyone who came before, or terribly myopic. What happened to the hundreds of players in the original platform for the last.. what was it.. 5 years? *shrugs* whatever. I am probably being too sensitive here, but paazin asked for blunt truth.

These two quotes seem more like a jealous fit than anything else. A child being angered by the fact that their younger sibling is getting attention and, in this case, praise. I think raising these points just further proves that there is some immaturity mixed in with the issues at hand.

If anyone else has felt like Misty in this scenario, perhaps you should really look into just what is getting your nose out of joint, and if it's really a reason worth fighting for. Although some arguments/points are valid, basically saying "I hate the attention <x> is getting" doesn't create a very strong argument and, in some cases, detracts from your overall point. Of course, Misty is tired and perhaps didn't mean to come across that way, but that certainly doesn't change the fact that it's a horrible outlook. NWN1 players, in their odd grouping (odd because it's now the norm to look at people based on their game platform), hate being considered "second class" and snubbed, but having a wicked attitude towards the other gathering doesn't help the case.

edit: I suppose I should state that I felt those two quotes came across that way, not that I believe Misty was being childish. It was the way it's worded, and although Paazin wishes for folks to be brutally honest, I believe stating that actually hurts an argument/information. Misty did have points other than what I quoted, which is why I only focused on telling people to really consider what they're going to say if that is the only reason they are fired up over the issue.

Last edited by Mulu on Tue Jul 15, 2008 12:42 am; edited 8 times in total

I'm noticing lots of edits whenever someone posts/responds in this thread, new information being placed in an 'outing' fashion. Quoting this out of boredom to see if it rises anytime soon.

[Mulu]

I'm not going to pretend to speak for the NWN1 crowd, because I play both platforms, but I have read enough posts by the NWN2 ALFA crowd to know that there was some pretty active and actual dismissing of NWN1 going on, for years now. The amount of seething resentment that flared up, unintentionally at my instigation, was far too great to be just a miscommunication. There must be something more to it, and I think Misty basically said it: NWN1 was effectively abandoned. That's not a miscommunication; that's an administrative decision that is now experiencing a backlash.

[edit] And heck, *I'm* the one who said it would be no big deal to get an NWN2 box, so apparently I'm on the list of dissers too. [/edit]

[Mulu]

I'm noticing lots of edits whenever someone posts/responds in this thread, new information being placed in an 'outing' fashion. Quoting this out of boredom to see if it rises anytime soon.

Actually I edited without reading or noticing the responses. They were serial in nature, and actually ended up breaking the convo a bit since I hadn't noticed I had been block quoted already. A little njubery on my part. Oh well. I figured it was too late at night for anyone to be reading the thread yet.