Crafting, general philosophy

[Ronan]

Alright, here is the general approach to crafting I'd like to see, if we add such a system.

• Based from 3.5 rules & skills. 3.5 crafting leaves a LOT of things abiguous in the crafting process, which a crafting system could fill in. What are those "expensive materials"? When can they be bought at merchants? Where can they be harvested?
• The gain rate should, under most all circumstances, be less than that of taking part in dangerous adventuring static content. Off the top of my head I'll say half as much for makers of magic items, but we should leave some global variables or constants in the design to tweak this easily (probably in the form of time required to craft something).
• Mundane crafting of normal materials in the Forgotten Realms just doesn't pay well when compared to adventuring. It shouldn't be something which is at all lucrative when compared to adventuring.
• There should be a mechanism in place to require RL time to craft something (whether the PC is logged in or out) which is mutually exclusive with other activities. This should again be something globally adjustable for easy tweakage.
• Common crafting resources should be available in common locations, such as merchants.
• Rare crafting resources should be taken from D&D sourcebooks (Arms and Equipment guide, DMG, etc) and not be available in common locations. In the case where such resources need to be gathered, lets leave them DM-placed only for now. Assume a persistant placeable system will be present which will make the placing of these resources persistant when a placeable is created with the local variable integer "ACR_PLC_PERSISTANT" set to 1.
• Leave things flexible! If we find crafting is being exploited or offers too much in the way of gains, we want to be able to alter it easily instead of tossing it out the window like so much of ALFA's other content.
• Knowlege of a "recipe" (which includes the spell requirment) required to make a magical item should be required to make that item. This isn't mentioned in the rules, but in FR lore, no one with the "forge ring" feat is assumed to know how to make every magic ring there is. Secrets of how to make items are jealously coveted by wizards and priesthoods alike.
• A failed attempt at magical crafting (caster level too low, improper spell cast, improper components, whatever) should usually involve large monitary loss of the components. Magical research is very, very expensive. A spellcraft roll to give a hint of what went wrong on the failed attempt might be in order, and again have the DC easily changable.
• Use constants everywhere in the code. We need to be able to match crafting components to existing items in the base pallet, and not have "diamonds" and "crafting diamonds".

Questions, comments?

[Fionn]

Sounds fairly in line with what I've been thinking. Two points come to mind.

First off, how do you require RL time while logged out? Does it count if I start on some hugely expensive item, then head for another server and come back in a week? I've been manually requiring 8 IC hours per RL day logged in and crafting. 3.5 allows both magical and mundane crafters to 'set it down' and go adventure. I would recommend we simply track IC time logged in and crafting.

Secondly, I'd like to see time require to find the recipies and components separated from the time required to craft. While these may take a considerable amount of time the first time, they can be reduced with experiance and planning. OTOH, loss of rare components during research may cost time &/or money (unless it was the wrong component to start with)

[Ronan]

First off, how do you require RL time while logged out? Does it count if I start on some hugely expensive item, then head for another server and come back in a week? I've been manually requiring 8 IC hours per RL day logged in and crafting. 3.5 allows both magical and mundane crafters to 'set it down' and go adventure. I would recommend we simply track IC time logged in and crafting.

Well, obviously the PC would have to stay on the same server, and not be partaking in any adventuring activities, though they should be able to put something down and come back to it (this is a PW, after all, not PnP). I know there are a number of problems to this approach, the biggest being players able to make money by not logging in. That definitely seems off. We do need some sort of timer though, and a message saying "you are too tired" seems a bit OOC. I'm really not sure what the best solution is here, which is why I kept stressing to leave the system flexible. We could try to for adventure through resource gathering, but that only works for rare materials or magical crafting.

We don't want to force people to solo-craft because they have to put 8 hours into an item. We want them to be able to RP. Crafting abilities are already mutually exclusive from adventuring abilities (skill points spent, feats taken), so I don't want to make the activity itself completely mutually exclusive. I do see a balance issue here with crafting easily-obtainable resources (head to merchant, buy iron, start making platemail, log out, log in when platemail is done, rinse, repeat).

Secondly, I'd like to see time require to find the recipies and components separated from the time required to craft. While these may take a considerable amount of time the first time, they can be reduced with experiance and planning. OTOH, loss of rare components during research may cost time &/or money (unless it was the wrong component to start with)

Thats already inherint in the system, since the crafting time required is ment to represent time spent actually working on the item with all components present.

What are people's thoughts on having a "recipe" item required for each creatable magical item? This recipe could detail the components needed, as well as ambigous "instructions" for how to craft the item. The item could be atainable any number of ordinary ways, including failed crafting attempts (experimentation). This sounds better than simply having to have the required components and spells, and represents the "lore" aspect of things which is usually up to the DM.

[Mulu]

Ronan got it right, allow crafting time to be done while logged off. Just make it take a long time (RL weeks) for powerful items. The point Fionn isn't to make people stay logged in while standing at a crafting table unavailable for multiplayer rp, it's to slow down the crafting cycle so your PC doesn't become a factory.

I do see the travel issue. Maybe if a PC logs into another server their offline crafting time gets halted until they come back to the server the item is being crafted on (info stored on PC locally, accessed by crafting table).

[Fionn]

RE Time: My druthers is still to require a specific amount of IC time. 8 IG hours once a day is less than one hour with our current time compression. This can be 30 min prior and 26 min after an adventure. If we check on psuedo-HB to make sure the majority of each IG hour, then increment the total craft progress, they can spread that over 8 days if they like.

While it would be more IC to simply allow 8 hours per 24 of IG time, this requires you to log in every 3 hours, which is not reasonable in a 24/7 PW. There's no reason we have to inform the player blatantly that he's not making progress until tomorrow - we can certainly have a pair of string arrays: one that indicates progress and the other the lack thereof. Randomly spout one of them (progress for 56 minutes of checks, non-progress for the rest of the 24 hours from the start of the 56) every minute or three, and most peeps should figure out when they've spent too long crafting and need to take a break ;)

[Mulu]

RE Time: My druthers is still to require a specific amount of IC time. 8 IG hours once a day is less than one hour with our current time compression. This can be 30 min prior and 26 min after an adventure. If we check on psuedo-HB to make sure the majority of each IG hour, then increment the total craft progress, they can spread that over 8 days if they like.

While it would be more IC to simply allow 8 hours per 24 of IG time, this requires you to log in every 3 hours, which is not reasonable in a 24/7 PW. There's no reason we have to inform the player blatantly that he's not making progress until tomorrow - we can certainly have a pair of string arrays: one that indicates progress and the other the lack thereof. Randomly spout one of them (progress for 56 minutes of checks, non-progress for the rest of the 24 hours from the start of the 56) every minute or three, and most peeps should figure out when they've spent too long crafting and need to take a break

The thing I hate the most about crafting is how much time it drains from multiplayer rp. The less IG time required the better, IMO. The level of IG time you're requiring may be a player's entire allotment of weekly game time, so they can choose to only craft or only rp, thus eliminating crafting as an option for them.

Systems that are only usable by the unemployed crowd tend to frustrate employed people.

[Fionn]

Systems that are only usable by the unemployed crowd tend to frustrate employed people.

Well, while doing 40 at Microsoft and another 15 credits at DeVry, I didn't have an issue with it ;)

If the *sole* point of this system is to slow down crafting, then I see no reason to have any IG time. Simply store the datestamp when you start, insert components, come back Xdays/GP later. It would seem totally meta to me to be forced to walk back to my lab, click a bench and log out daily. Far better to just assume I did it. We can even tie this into the portal system to reset the datestamp if you leave the server.

I don't agree that the sole purpose is to slow down 'factory' PCs. I feel that it's important that the PC (and thus player) actually sacrifice time that could be spent doing other things. As a mage, I value this, and I know others do as well.

Mundane crafting (even if we use half the GP/hr of magical) is so cheap that even MW Full Plate won't take long. Adventurer/Blacksmith PCs are completely doable spending IG time to pound away.

[Ronan]

Mundane crafting (even if we use half the GP/hr of magical) is so cheap that even MW Full Plate won't take long. Adventurer/Blacksmith PCs are completely doable spending IG time to pound away.

Full plate takes over 41 weeks assuming a 20 on Craft Armor skill checks. In most cases enchanting something is much quicker.

[Mulu]

Systems that are only usable by the unemployed crowd tend to frustrate employed people.

Well, while doing 40 at Microsoft and another 15 credits at DeVry, I didn't have an issue with it

Throw in a wife and a 3 year old kid, and see what happens to your playtime. So I'll rephrase, "Systems that are only usable by the unemployed or childless crowd tend to frustrate employed parents."

[Mulu]

I'll also point out the one of the purposes of a crafting system is to give people something to do when there is no DM or other players on. Players should *never* have to sacrifice multiplayer rp time for crafting. It is a solo activity used as a filler, and for some a bit of character development. It should never be a situation where a player has to sacrifice rp for crafting.

Now, "something to do" does not include standing at a crafting table while a clock ticks. It takes about a nanosecond of thought to realize that time will be spent afk. There is a huge difference between an in game activity and a mere time sink. Time sinks serve no purpose other than to frustrate those with limited play time. In game activity gives you something hopefully fun to do while logged in and no one else is around.

[Ronan]

I'll also point out the one of the purposes of a crafting system is to give people something to do when there is no DM or other players on. Players should *never* have to sacrifice multiplayer rp time for crafting. It is a solo activity used as a filler, and for some a bit of character development. It should never be a situation where a player has to sacrifice rp for crafting.

Well, magical and rare material crafting can drive RP. Finding the arcane formulae needed to make a brooch of shielding, or the local of a mithral vein are things which promote and drive RP. Its the act of crafting itself that is time consuming, and, well, just sucks.

The problem is this: The ability to craft should be mutually exclusive with the ability to adventure. While some adventurers pick up some crafting skills to aguement their trade, they do so at the expense of other skills. Fortunately, 3.5 rules already make skill in crafting mutually exclusive with skill in other areas. Unfortunately, its hard to make time spent crafting mutually exclusive with other activities. I think both of you have valid points, but I'm just not seeing an elegant solution at the moment.

[Fionn]

RE: 41 weeks

I thought the consensus was that the mundane crafting rules were unworkable in a PW, thus we'd settled on a % of the magical gain rate. I thought that was 50%, thus 1800/(25gp/hr) = 72 hrs. 500 for a MW Bow is only 20. Normal weapons can be ground out 1/hr.

This does *NOT* prevent a PC from adventuring. It means that if they split their attention, it will take longer.

[Ronan]

RE: 41 weeks

I thought the consensus was that the mundane crafting rules were unworkable in a PW, thus we'd settled on a % of the magical gain rate. I thought that was 50%, thus 1800/(25gp/hr) = 72 hrs. 500 for a MW Bow is only 20. Normal weapons can be ground out 1/hr.

Well, magical crafting is 1,000gp per 8 hour day, so 125gp per hour. Even 50% of that seems far too quickly for me. Smiths and bowyers and such do certainly make a much better living than a dirt-farmer, but it shouldn't approach that of magical crafting. 10% sounds better to me, or 100gp per day.

This does *NOT* prevent a PC from adventuring. It means that if they split their attention, it will take longer.

No, but it does prevent them from RPing with others for those 8 hours while they craft. Having people log on just to put their hours in to craft something then log out again would absolutely not be what we want.

[Mulu]

And when you add the fact that the time spent will largely be afk, why bother being logged in at all?

[Fionn]

Sorry - been terse in this thread.

Magical crafting has been declared to be a max of half the 'adventuring rate' of 100GP/RL hour. This means *magical* crafting would have a max gain rate of 50 GP/hr after accounting for the base costs. Profit will be 0-50GP/RL Hour (well, perhaps loss on occasion).

Mundane crafting, therefore, would be a max profit of 25GP/RL hour.

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Second concept. IG time spent is 8 IC hours per RL day. This means 56 minutes per RL day. You are expected to log in and spend 8 IC hours to account for a 'day' of crafting either way.

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paradox:

if you spend 56 minutes to craft a 1000GP item, pay 500GP in base costs, you've made 5X the adventuring rate. If you count the other 23 hours you are NOT crafting, you've made 20% of the adventuring rate (at best).

Assuming somebody figures out how to have infinite rare resources so they can craft *every* day, and they also spend 40+ hours each week running statics, and they also manage to get back to their lab every night to do 56 minutes of crafting, they're going to be earning an extra 500GP/day over what the statics are balanced for.

Solutions:

Voluntary - request PGrs slow down, or leave.

Scripted - check wealth/hr and wealth:XP and write code to ensure you can't exceed standards for either while crafting.

Nerf - lower the payoff until it doesn't matter.