Loot Splitting - Dungeon Kill Points

[Senor T]

As usual, running the actual dungeon is TONS of fun, but splitting the loot afterwards always seems painful and frustrating and it seems to suck the joy out of the game sometimes. Especially when you don't get loot many times in a row. I was discussing this with a co-worker who pointed out that WoW had a decent bidding system called Dungeon Kill Points.

Dungeon Kill Points are basically points that you get for participating in sessions that you can then bid with in an auction during loot distribution. (My suggestion is that) every character gets 10 points to start with, then 5 points per session attended that involves significant loot (I'm thinking this basically refers to Friday session that involve loot). These totals would be tracked on a spreadsheet by a volunteer (I'll do it if no-one else wants to - I hate overhead, but am dedicated to killing needless drama). After loot is gathered, it's noted on the spreadsheet as usual, then people get a set amount of time to bid on what they want. Once the loot is divided, the totals are removed from the master point spreadsheet. Only the winner of the bid spends their points. If there wasn't great loot for your toon or you lost your bid, then you didn't have to spend points and can save them for the next distribution.

The downside are that loot-splitting sessions with decent loot where it can be split immediately afterwards via dice rolls will require this process instead. Which means it will take longer. All loot splitting will require stupid spreadsheet overhead. However, the upside is that loot will be more equitably split over the long term and will hopefully involve *gasp* less drama and feeling like you're getting screwed. I suspect we all agree that we both want to get loot and we want it to be fairly distributed among everyone.

Issues seem to have only arisen during large quests, so I would vote to exclude ad-hoc static dungeon loot note sessions, which usually involve smaller parties. Ayergo seems to be doing an excellent job of tracking who's done what loot notes somehow and I've not seen any of those sessions end with any drama.

So yeah, let's just suffer through this current round of splitting and hopefully the next one we'll start with this bidding thing.

What do you all think?

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PS - This is not an indictment on anyone or anything. I just want to remove the subjectivity from loot note splitting. Besides, I think we can all agree that Keryn is the best bard and deserves all the bard stuff always.

[Cleasor]

One question, what about players who had characters killed during the loot-earning adventure? I would suggest that the player is still awarded the 5 dungeon kill points for contributing to that adventure but obviously the dead character will not participate in the loot distribution of that adventure. This way, the player is somewhat rewarded for their play and contribution.

[Arianna]

Great for those peeps that have the time and can be around ALL the time
not so great for some of us that cannot
and if its by how many things we actually kill .......
Mari may as well not bother to risk her life since she rarely actually gets a kill

I stopped playing games like DDo / WoW / LoTro / Archage because guilds and stuff would dump you if you did not play x amount of time every week and you didn't get a share of the loot unless you met their standards

Support will always get the dregs of the treasure splits

[Senor T]

One question, what about players who had characters killed during the loot-earning adventure? I would suggest that the player is still awarded the 5 dungeon kill points for contributing to that adventure but obviously the dead character will not participate in the loot distribution of that adventure. This way, the player is somewhat rewarded for their play and contribution.

Personally, I have no preference here (FULLY recognizing this isn't my call, it's just my idea). The current system is new characters start over at square 1 and I was simply trying to emulate this system but also trying to give some sort of boost to new PCs by giving them 10 points to start regardless of whether they died in a point-giving quest or not.

Honestly, you gave up the rewards for like a year's worth of adventuring, and I'm totally sympathetic to that. And I'm sympathetic to starting fresh regardless. It's just a matter of what you give to new characters as I see it. The starting point could be 15. Or we could say it's 10 by default, 15 if you die during a DKP quest.

[Senor T]

Great for those peeps that have the time and can be around ALL the time
not so great for some of us that cannot

That should be the same as the current system, where you only get loot from a quest if you're in the quest. You only get DKP from a quest if you're in the quest. I could be missing something though... it definitely is an abstraction.

and if its by how many things we actually kill .......
Mari may as well not bother to risk her life since she rarely actually gets a kill

I don't think anyone wants that. Let's just always call it even. Everyone gets even points to bid evenly if they were in a DKP quest.

I stopped playing games like DDo / WoW / LoTro / Archage because guilds and stuff would dump you if you did not play x amount of time every week and you didn't get a share of the loot unless you met their standards

Support will always get the dregs of the treasure splits

Not suggesting we make this at all like MMO guilds. MMOs are stupid. We're just trying to split look using a point system that gives control but removes subjectivity so we can not worry about the loot split and just have fun playing the game.

[oldgrayrogue]

Kudos for thinking up an alternative way to split loot in a fair manner. How about a simpler suggestion? How about folks NOT create drama over loot splits? Roll a die20. High roll picks first and down the line. Nothing prevents folks from offering to buy loot from others ICly or even trade items after splits.

This is the main reason why, when I DMd, I never gave item rewards, except for individual RP. I gave only gold and consumables in an even number to be split to avoid player drama. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy getting items and Ayergo's loot drops often contain really cool items tailored to one PC or another. But if folks can't handle loot splits without getting dramatic, then there's another alternative.

[Stormbringer]

I say roll D20 and let fate decide.

[valn99]

I hate rolling dice to be honest, though I understand it's simple.
I know there's no perfect system, but I would be willing to try the system Senor-T described.
Seems like it would probably balance between a couple of sessions.

[Rumple C]

Loot division can kill fun.

I am for items going where they get the most utility by class and play style, and not dragging it out.

Sometimes it means a player might get a feast of items, at other times a drought.

Example - the party kills an evil wizard (ok, obviously all wizards are evil, but i digress). The wands, scrolls, robes, spells books should go to the wizard(s) on the trip, and the everyone else might get guano.

Next trip out there might be nothing for anyone because when you kill beggars the real reward is friendship.

Next next time more wizard gear. Poor fighters.

Next next next time it is a fighter bonanza, and the front line cleans up. Regular fighter Jim couldn't make it, but they set aside a sweet shield for him anyway, because that is how nice people roll.

That is how i would do it, were i overlord.

[Senor T]

So far loot division seems to always kill fun for at least one or more. If they knew they were getting credit they could cash in next time, I think that’d help.

[Stormbringer]

So far loot division seems to always kill fun for at least one or more. If they knew they were getting credit they could cash in next time, I think that’d help.

I have seen loot division go fast and easy and then its drug out for days sometimes with bickering over who has to have the +5 ubber turd of smelling.

I still say d20.. If someone wants a certain item and rolls bad then wait your turn in Q like everyone else.. I guarantee I roll bad almost all the time.. with a exceptional roll once every 20 or so.

But from now on.. I say if the Company wants left over items they need to buy them from those not in the company. That's my thoughts from one not in the company.

[Mick]

While I am generally not in favor of OOC solutions to IC situations, loot can and will lead to drama and hard feelings sometimes. Some manner of OOC system to divvy things up can help....or it can further muddy the water.

I agree that most of the time the items that are class or alignment or deity specific should go to the PCs best suited for such or who would be able to best make use of said items. However, what if Bran comes across an unholy relic that he would like to see destroyed in the name of Lathander (obviously you have to pretend Bran is good in this example, but I digress)? If he wants to lay claim to something like that, it should play out IC, I think.

Despite having rolled well in the past and having obtained some very decent items as a result, I am not a big fan of rolling dice for loot. It is a method that I used for years in PnP and most people are only in favor of it if they come out on top. That said, it is quick, fair, and carries relatively little drama.

How could rolling dice seem not so...meh? Some examples:

1. Do what we do now with large hauls. First round in order, second round in reverse order, third round in order, etc. This actually seems to work pretty well when many items are to be had.
2. PCs could make offers to other PCs to move up or trade for their spot in the picking (like a draft.) You want to move up to pick second instead of fifth? That will cost you 500gp or three potions of Invisibility or whatever. Let the bidding begin.
3. Have a point bank for PCs for big events only. The number of points entered into the bank are equal to how far off of first pick a PC is when picking. i.e.-1 point for picking second, 4 points for picking 5th, etc. Those points are tallied by....someone...and can later be added to your loot rolls to bump you up in the order. A PC who finds himself in 8th place by rolling a 5 can put himself in first place by spending 17 banked points. Of course, others could do the same. Again, let the bidding begin. Only those who move up actually spend their points, or something.

Those are just a few ways to make this more complicated, but hopefully less dramatic.

Oh....and I agree that if the company wants to keep surplus items, compensation should be offered to non-company personnel for them.

Aaaaand I'm spent.

[jmecha]

I have seen loot division go fast and easy and then its drug out for days sometimes with bickering over who has to have the +5 ubber turd of smelling.

Oddly enough there is a Hero who has been leaving Elf Logs in the darkest reaches of Waterdeep's dungeons.

[Rumple C]

He could be a powerful ally.

[Wild Wombat]

I hate arriving at a decision via random chance (d20). Back when I first re-joined we tried to institute a spreadsheet to try and make it more fair, but that was not met with a favorable reaction. It lasted one session.

I am almost at the point where I don't even want to know what the loot from a session is so that I can just log off before the rolling of the d20. Not that I have played much recently, so maybe I should just shut up*.

*I only posted because I am compelled to take the opposite position of OGR. This is PvP, after all. And he is a Yankees fan.