Changing death

[Veilan]

Addendum: Of course, another problem is that DnD 3.5 is really only playable levels 3-11 - you do not have any buffer to make combat less of a gamble on the low levels, and afterwards things get weird (with casters).

This is something that both the original campaigns from NWN 1 and NWN 2 realised: Max HP for the first three levels in NWN 1, and the socket item with a 10 HP bonus or so in NWN 2 (and max HP every level, which is not ideal).

I would probably not be opposed to a +5 hp item for every character, as I have said before. Its value diminishes rapidly with the max HP system but it might give that extra round reaction time / chance to survive that one unlucky crit.

0.02€,

[valn99]

I doubt people are hoarding potions...
Yes, CLW are cheaper, but 20gp is NOT negligible when people will spend what 10-20 per nights, probably more?

During combat, you get an Attack of opportunity each time you take a potion, which makes it a gamble, specially when you get a bad roll (after all 1d8+1 could net you only 2hp) Should potions grant you max instead? Or remove the AOO for using potions altogether? (Realizing of course that this would benefit the ennemy. And not sure if this is hard-coded?)

Also, you soon outgrow CLW, but the more powerful potions are still insanely expensive.
So people will often solo to earn back what they spent in potions during the big nights...

I've realized a long time ago that in DnD, attack bonus rises faster than AC in levels.
You will take hits, even if you have the highest AC in the party. It's unavoidable.

The NWN developpers made changes to adress the real-time factor of combat. Many of those changes were reversed in ALFA "to make it more like PnP".
Max hp would help a bit. But so would the changes proposed by Rick.
I would also humbly propose that we introduce some low DR property in armor.

My two (canadian) cents.

[oldgrayrogue]

I sort of love how we always want to be more like PnP if it means adding lethality, but less like PnP if it means adding survivability. I was not suggesting that everyone have the ability to pause the game whenever, and have been playing ALFA for over a decade and know it very well thank you very much. All I am saying is that when your PC is surrounded and taking multiple AOO hits as you fumble at the keys trying to drink a potion, a pause would be nice so that you have the TIME to click the correct button. That's all. In PnP this is never an issue.

[Arianna]

Nope in PnP its not an issue cause you have a DM calling the turns

[Rick7475]

Con check rolls for every point loss would give additional time.

[ImStrokerAce]

Con check rolls for every point loss would give additional time.

I like that idea!

[Akivaria]

I sort of love how we always want to be more like PnP if it means adding lethality, but less like PnP if it means adding survivability. I was not suggesting that everyone have the ability to pause the game whenever, and have been playing ALFA for over a decade and know it very well thank you very much. All I am saying is that when your PC is surrounded and taking multiple AOO hits as you fumble at the keys trying to drink a potion, a pause would be nice so that you have the TIME to click the correct button. That's all. In PnP this is never an issue.

A very fair point.

[Rick7475]

I sort of love how we always want to be more like PnP if it means adding lethality, but less like PnP if it means adding survivability. I was not suggesting that everyone have the ability to pause the game whenever, and have been playing ALFA for over a decade and know it very well thank you very much. All I am saying is that when your PC is surrounded and taking multiple AOO hits as you fumble at the keys trying to drink a potion, a pause would be nice so that you have the TIME to click the correct button. That's all. In PnP this is never an issue.

A very fair point.

When solo:

- dying right beside an NPC and they can't help, but they loot your corpse.
- the possibility of being taken prisoner, sent to a prison, in certain areas


These can be scripted

[ayergo]

I sort of love how we always want to be more like PnP if it means adding lethality, but less like PnP if it means adding survivability. I was not suggesting that everyone have the ability to pause the game whenever, and have been playing ALFA for over a decade and know it very well thank you very much. All I am saying is that when your PC is surrounded and taking multiple AOO hits as you fumble at the keys trying to drink a potion, a pause would be nice so that you have the TIME to click the correct button. That's all. In PnP this is never an issue.

A very fair point.

When solo:

- dying right beside an NPC and they can't help, but they loot your corpse.
- the possibility of being taken prisoner, sent to a prison, in certain areas


These can be scripted

Agree with all of these in principle, but I have no idea how to script them

On the note of NPC looting, anyone know how to turn that off? I hate that with a passion but can't find it anywhere.

[Galadorn]

ALFA tries to get as close as possible to PnP, but it still really is mechanically a video-game, 90% i think. The only way to stop this is to completely remove the "P" from "PW" when it comes to ALFA, and people ONLY login when it's "Game day" and the session is just like a DM'd PnP session, where players should possibly be able to call out: "PAUSE PLEASE!", and the DM may or may not comply, and hit pause, and give that player a few moments to breath and click the needed "potion or spell" button, and i pray that NEVER happens. I LOVE the "P" part of ALFA. I want to play whenever I want to play, and don't want to be constrained to have to wait until one set game day/time. It's not selfish since my timezone is so different, it's purely my enjoyment of playing whenever I want. Not to mention I also want to choose who I play with.

If ALFA becomes a "W", DM'd sessions only, then that would be fine. I'm most likely going to move on, but that's a mixed blessing to you all i'm sure huh?


That being said: If people DO play when DMs are not around, then it's kind of saying-without-saying:

"I'm playing a video-game now.".....

So, if you go hunting rats, that you KNOW spawn in groups, and can surround you, and you know you get 3-6 AOO on you when you attempt to drink a potion when you're already near death, then, that's a risk you knew about and took. *shrugs*

Toliv is tough. But I still very rarely don't go into any fight with potential for major risk without at least a handful of healing spells ready, potions on easy to reach quick bar slots, and my cursor ON the INVISIBILITY potion just in case - even when the DM is online...and when I need to click something else, a new summon, or rapid shot, or whatever, i immediately scroll over the invisibility potion again....

I like the CON Check though. Cool idea. And even makes RP sense.

I do hope we get the massive-damage hit you to lowest: -6, but even better, massive damage hitting you to -1 would be better!

and please keep the 10% or whatever the % is that when solo, the PC might stabilize on his own without any need for any help... i've seen that a few times and it saves a lot of pain...

[Veilan]

I sort of love how we always want to be more like PnP if it means adding lethality, but less like PnP if it means adding survivability.

Seriously? This is demonstrably false:

- potions are cheaper than in PnP
- death magic is less lethal
- wealth levels are higher
- opponents are dumber
- hit points are considerably higher

There are likely more. You know I love you and I understand the desire for presenting a narrative, but this is not american politics, Facebook or a Twitter feed. I respectfully ask that we adhere to at least a basic level of intellectual honesty when discussing our preferences, perceived problems and envisioned solutions with our fellow ALFAns.

I was not suggesting that everyone have the ability to pause the game whenever, and have been playing ALFA for over a decade and know it very well thank you very much. All I am saying is that when your PC is surrounded and taking multiple AOO hits as you fumble at the keys trying to drink a potion, a pause would be nice so that you have the TIME to click the correct button. That's all. In PnP this is never an issue.

That is all fair, and I understand the frustration of having an element of "twitchiness". However, there are solutions to that which do not disrupt the game for everybody else who is online and which address the core problem, as stated before. I probably need not say that in a situation where you are surrounded and take multiple AoOs and are about to get floored, auto-pause would very seldom change the result (and yes, Galadorn is correct that invisibility is better than a healing potion; if you get it past the AoOs you're golden with our AI - something you would not be in PnP). Can we agree on this and try to identify a more effective or appropriate solution to the problem?

"I'm playing a video-game now.".....

Thank you Galadorn, this is something I wanted to bring up too. I do not know where this notion that ALFA must emulate PnP comes from. Maybe some of us actually enjoy that this is a CRPG? I mean, again with the intellectual honesty, if somebody truly claimed ALFA should be like PnP, there is tabletop simulator, openRPG, FantasyGrounds. Yet the community is discussing Aria and NWN 1 EE -> clearly less PnP-oriented platforms than the former three. PnP can provide input and inspiration, but ALFA still is its own beast. Also, as aptly noted by Galadorn, one could already make one's game more PnP-y by only logging in when a DM is around. So the PnP-thing is nothing to blame ALFA for - we are not pretending we want to emulate PnP. Some people are bringing it up on occasion because it makes easy comparison and can be used to argue for or against certain personal preferences, but that is that - debate tactics and a yardstick.



Anyway, back on topic: Something to make people more aware when HP are low other than their red bar and health-text changing might be a good first step. Auto-pause with DMs is a good thing and has proven to work there. I would find an auto-pause when alone disruptive and probably not suitably targeted for what seems to be the issue, but if it gives people more peace of mind with the results of combat and leads to less regrets and self-blame with twitch skills, it might be worth considering, especially for party play. Technical feasibility may be an issue here: without a DM, failure to unpause could be grave. I am also still in favour of a +5hp starting freebie, bonus feat or selectable feat (or even better yet, bumping toughness to 5+level, so it remains a choice and gets a use as a feat) to address the problem of casino combat on the first two levels, this would come in with an automatic built-in reaction time boost too.

0.02€,

[Rick7475]

So when I find the ACR script (NWN1) with the final count down can I add CON checks to try it out?


Except for Dwarfs, I'll make it CHA checks


And

if (oPlayer == "Galadorn"){
ChangeRace("Yaun-ti", oPlayer);)
}

[oldgrayrogue]

I sort of love how we always want to be more like PnP if it means adding lethality, but less like PnP if it means adding survivability.

Seriously? This is demonstrably false:

- potions are cheaper than in PnP
- death magic is less lethal
- wealth levels are higher
- opponents are dumber
- hit points are considerably higher

You can call "Fake News" on me all you like Veilan, anyone who actually plays the game knows I'm right. As for your points:

- potions are cheaper than in PnP -- very recent change made to address dwindling player population which led to mostly solo play. I think I may have suggested it actually because the largest party I could slap together on NWN2 in the longest while was like 2 players. So there is your intellectual honesty. Practice what you preach.

- death magic is less lethal -- woo hoo

- wealth levels are higher -- for who exactly? And DMs ultimately control wealth so this is, again, false narrative. Nor are there as many items available in game that are available in PnP.

- opponents are dumber -- are you saying this is by design? Or is this a limitation on the AI? Game limitations make my PC a lot more limited as well. Without a DM there are innumerable actions I cannot take in game that I could execute in PnP. Plus a DM can possess an NPC and be on equal footing with my PC.

- hit points are considerably higher -- I'm pretty sure that applies to Mobs too yes? And lately I have been playing NWN1, where you roll for HP over level 3. I wonder, do Mobs do the same?

Anyway, I really don't want to get into a pissing match with anyone. Nor do I want to change the platform away from a PW. Nor do I want to give every player the right to pause the game whenever they want. Yes, we are all playing a video game model of DnD that tries to get as close to PnP as we can. Anyone in ALFA who has EVER played with me knows that I play my PCs totally IC when it comes to accepting risks. When they die I also don't gripe or moan or rage quit or any other nonsense -- I just reroll. I know the risks and accept them. My comments in this thread were just suggestions based on recent experiences in game. I'm not trying to change ALFA as we know it.

But to suggest that over the decade I have been a part of this community "PnP" has not been used as a justification to deny all sorts of proposed changes that could have made the game less lethal -- especially at lower levels -- and perhaps less boring, and more attractive to folks that want to come play in our world, is simply the height of hypocrisy and the definition of Fake News. I've advocated on these boards over and over again through the years that lethality should be very low at the beginning levels as a matter of game design to enable players to develop a story based narrative for their PCs that does not get cut short by a lucky crit or a fat fingered key. I have advocated that lethality should grow exponentially as PCs gain in levels and power, because if it does not then the world is really only "permadeath" and "hardcore" for low levels. I've been accused of "waging a war on high levels" as a result, when really all I was trying to do is make the notion of "hardcore" and "permadeath" intellectually honest and applicable to all players across levels. I also think PC turnover after a story has had a chance to develop is a good thing, that keeps the game world fresh and keeps people playing. High levels surviving in perpetuity leads to game stagnation. Conversely, dying over and over at low levels just leads to frustration and a desire to NOT play. Worse, it leads to an OOC driven form of RP where players are taking actions with their characters that the PLAYER would take to preserve the PC from death, not that the character would take ICly. That is not an immersive form of story based RP. That is a video game.

So bottom line, sorry if I offended anyone's sensibilities, or threatened the Pillars of ALFA as we know it. I don't like being called a liar though.

So rant over. I will shut up now and go back to playing NWN1 on WD where, you know, there are actually players. Come on over and log in and play Veilan. Its actually real fun.

[Rick7475]

Conversely, dying over and over at low levels just leads to frustration and a desire to NOT play. Worse, it leads to an OOC driven form of RP where players are taking actions with their characters that the PLAYER would take to preserve the PC from death, not that the character would take ICly. That is not an immersive form of story based RP. That is a video game.

Hence, pure wizards/sorcerers are extremely rare and something/cleric is the most popular class.

Also, as a module designer I try my best to play test my sadistic dungeons, but I make tonnes of design flaws and mistakes that kill PC's. I try and catch them for tech rezzes, but I think a more robust death system would be helpful, especially with friendly NPC's helping dying PC's. You could also do a % chance of an NPC appearing to help, according to the area. Or even bad guys appearing to take a dying helpless PC prisoner (ie hps at 1 and transporting them to a set prison in the area, stripping equipment to a chest nearby. Should be able to add this to the heartbeat script of an area.

I get perma death, but honestly it rarely happens in PnP, at least in the 30 odd years I have been playing. Just hoping for more options for RPing a PC that is dying.

[Wild Wombat]

Stating categorically that ALFA is less or more dangerous/survivable than PnP is a complete non-starter! Danger/Survivability in PnP is completely in the hands of the DM. If somebody presumes to tell me that they know how the DMs I have played with behave, I have to laugh. I will say that in my experience DMs don't usually kill the PCs. But your experience may differ. That is my whole point.

So, I line up squarely on OGR's side when he says that PnP is more survivable. At least for me it was.

I will also vouch for OGR's commitment to playing his PCs like he feels they ought to be played. If he rolls up a barbarian, that barb does not wilt but always leads the charge. Me ... well, I truly don't like my PCs to die, so I don't play barbs. That makes OGR a much better RPer than I ever will be and I freely admit it. But since I play to have fun, and I know that I don't have as much fun when my PCs die, I have will have to accept that I don't live up to the standards of some hardcore players. I enjoy playing with and admirte you hardcore types, but I can never be you.

Aside: Ever heard of Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson? Ever been DMed by them? Well I have, at Michicon, 1978. I can tell you that they had a very different apporach to DMing and they wrote the books! It was a three round contest. We came out of round 1 and drew Arneson as our DM for round two. He was pretty lenient and we built up a substantial lead. Since we were in first place for round 3, we drew Gygax next. He was tough and half of the party died, including my PC. (We did end up winning the contest due to how much we dominated in round 2 and the points we got.)

Yup, I just dropped some names, but the point is that DMs come in all shapes, sizes and temperments. They determine what happens in PnP and are as easy to categorize as the rest of humanity.