Changing death

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Rumple C
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Re: Changing death

Post by Rumple C »

I'm confused. Is this a discussion for changing the death stuff in Alfa 1 or 2?
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Re: Changing death

Post by vergin_sacrifice »

My two sense(*) worth.
- opponents are dumber -- are you saying this is by design? Or is this a limitation on the AI? Game limitations make my PC a lot more limited as well. Without a DM there are innumerable actions I cannot take in game that I could execute in PnP. Plus a DM can possess an NPC and be on equal footing with my PC.
I would just like to say, this is debatable, as I have seen some pretty non-intelligent DMs and some really sharp ones. Our AI after all of it's reworks is actually pretty decent compared to some live minds.

1. I love the con check idea for each point lost while bleeding out.
OGR, you made a really good sense here:
I've advocated on these boards over and over again through the years that lethality should be very low at the beginning levels as a matter of game design to enable players to develop a story based narrative for their PCs that does not get cut short by a lucky crit or a fat fingered key. I have advocated that lethality should grow exponentially as PCs gain in levels and power, because if it does not then the world is really only "permadeath" and "hardcore" for low levels.
2. I suggest if it is possible; Raise the automatic or self stabilize to 50% if levels 1-3. I'd also suggest not making a big deal of it when it is done. Let people have their story of 'how I almost died' when they were just starting out. Characters will still die rampantly, but I think the ones that will not will have a rich story added to their timelines and encourage them to play longer and more often.








* ( Misspelled on purpose; as I'm trying to make sense.)
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Re: Changing death

Post by Galadorn »

yea! Love me some OGR on a daily basis.
Wild Wombat wrote:I will also vouch for OGR's commitment to playing his PCs like he feels they ought to be played. If he rolls up a barbarian, that barb does not wilt but always leads the charge. Me ... well, I truly don't like my PCs to die, so I don't play barbs. That makes OGR a much better RPer than I ever will be and I freely admit it. But since I play to have fun, and I know that I don't have as much fun when my PCs die, I have will have to accept that I don't live up to the standards of some hardcore players. I enjoy playing with and admirte you hardcore types, but I can never be you.
While I find that sincerely commendable, and of course awesome, to play your PC exactly as envisioned to a tee which includes quite often setting yourself up into a risk situation that 90% should get your PC killed - that - on it's own is no way to have a lasting narrative and see a PC into mid-high level - if that's in any way your goal. And surviving to mid-high level might certainly not be your goal, or outweigh your goal of "playing your PC RP perfectly". But....Playing a barbarian (and i know it was a quick post/idea and not always the case), but playing a barbarian does not mean you have to charge into a fight every - single - time - and die. There are dozens of ways to "play" your character (ANY character/ and ANY race) that are RP appropriate while realizing (and acting/reacting to the fact..) that we are playing a NWN1/2 (not perfect? flawed even?) game engine video game -- and wanting your PC to survive by making a decision that does NOT risk certain death is by NO means "weakness" in immersion or gameplay style.

Why not play your PC perfectly in the tavern (of course), and when alone in a lethal environment like a massive large spawning ground where very numerous enemies can appear anytime.......... "tone" your perfect-RP-charging-PC-mentality down just a notch? Trust me no one is going to mind...... plus....... no one is even there? And no one better please admit they RP their PC 100% perfectly when alone on a server. If you do, you'd better be flirting with NPCs, buying drinks for NPCs, and getting into long drawn out discussions with the vendors because they won't talk back to you when you buy gear and potions from them....... ;-)


It does seem like people who are dying more often are trying to have the GAME CHANGED to accomodate their dying frequency....... and truthfully, in my opinion maybe the gung-ho playstyle could be TWEAKED (SORRY!) to accommodate the already existing game-world ......so people who keep risking/and/dying STOP dying.

Play your PC of COURSE how he/she should be played - but fer gad sakes people STOP SOLOING RAT HILLS AND SEWERS. I really really LOL when someone tells me they're "playing their PC RP perfect"...........by hunting a hundred RATS in a DUMP??!?

Especially alone.

When your PC knows how dangerous it is.

nah not buyin it

IMPORTANT EDIT: Yes! I certainly have solo'd the Rat Hills. It was not a hypocritical remark.
ayergo even had a little fun and nearly killed Toliv at level 6, when I was alone, "easily" soloing Rats in Rat Hills by dropping a few "GREATER RATKIN" on me, that Toliv could NOT kill, and nearly died to... because he told me later I not only should not be there, but I am literally "not allowed" to be there, killing rats that lower level PCs are "supposed" to be killing instead of me. Even when alone on server. I'm just saying. If you know there's a good chance to die....... just don't go there. Rats and Sewers are very dangerous.
Even if you RP a "Rat Catcher" (LOL) as some form of RP-OK-reason to hunt rats....... you still do not have to go there when you're alone, or even often.
Wild Wombat wrote:Aside: Ever heard of Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson? Ever been DMed by them? Well I have, at Michicon, 1978.
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Rick7475 wrote:And
if (oPlayer == "Galadorn"){
ChangeRace("Yaun-ti", oPlayer);)
}
Rick7475, I teach grade 3. I DID pratice web design for years, even performed quite well as a web developer in NY and Ottawa so I do recall 'some' things about coding....... but all that being said...... was the above support of me? or some kind of secret nerdy slandering? Either one is fine by me, just let me know!

By the way i've wanted to make a Yuan-ti Pureblood for years.... can I on Daggerford? Is Yuan-Ti a playable race in NWN1 ALFA?


Oh, and can we have rideable horses please - k - thanks - bai
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Re: Changing death

Post by oldgrayrogue »

OK, I never said charging headlong to certain death as a Barb = great RP. What I did say, is that supposedly playing an adventurer based on OOC considerations of preserving your PC from death is not immersive RP, unless of course that is your PCs number one goal. Is hunting rats solo immersive RP? It can be, if it informs your RP when others are around, just like anything your toon does solo.
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Re: Changing death

Post by Heero »

Heero just pawn in game of life.

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Re: Changing death

Post by Veilan »

Well, alright, let me start by summarising what I think is the common ground:

We mostly agree that levels 1, 2 and maybe 3 are ridiculous in DnD combat and resemble a casino more than something you can take a tactical approach to. Where we disagree is the solution to this: I believe a socket hitpoint boost, either universal or by choice, is the most effective and easy way to do this. Others seem to believe auto-pausing without a DM or changes to bleed-out scripts are the way to go.

Tangent: I think we actually ratified the toughness feat boost, but tech never implemented it. Maybe the de-centralised NWN 1 servers can be more nimble in this.




Now to the slightly more off-topic points. For the matter of immersive RP, well, let's agree it is a matter of perspective and balance, not the extremes. If somebody decides to create a suicidal character and RPs them stringently, then death as a probable outcome is more immersive than fudgind and futzing the game until they breeze through. In the same instance, playing a character who maybe has a clue about combat and takes calculated risks rather than feeling compelled to always charge in and fight to the death does not have to be un-immersive - even a brave barbarian might have reasons to be martially adept rather than a complete loon. So the truth lies in the middle: Make well-rounded characters and play them with consistence. Nobody suggests to game the system, but nobody should want the system to always reward every risk either.



oldgrayrogue wrote:Anyway, I really don't want to get into a pissing match with anyone
Yes you do, or at least did. And you know what - I shall indulge you, since you choose to entirely ommit all the common ground and I am tired of being misrepresented. I suppose I should do so in a PM but why not try the low road for a change to appear more relatably contemporary :twisted:.
oldgrayrogue wrote:You can call "Fake News" on me all you like Veilan, anyone who actually plays the game knows I'm right.
I will continue to call them if you continue to produce them. Worse, the second part off-handedly suggests I am not playing the game and clueless. No pissing match eh? Also, condescending and untrue; I play regularly in NWN 2 (Friday DM session with shad0wfax on TSM, recently other stuff on BG, exploring and testing). So either you choose to speak out of ignorance, or you were misleading to support your narrative. Let me know which one - but in both cases you were okay to imply of a fellow ALFAn that they could not participate in this discussion due to being out of touch. I actually acknowledged your frustration and found your opinion valid (but disagreed on the proposed solution), you choose to attack my abilty or right to participate in discussion.
oldgrayrogue wrote:As for your points:

- potions are cheaper than in PnP -- very recent change made to address dwindling player population which led to mostly solo play. I think I may have suggested it actually because the largest party I could slap together on NWN2 in the longest while was like 2 players. So there is your intellectual honesty. Practice what you preach.
December 2016 / January 2017. Even if you consider that recent, it still is true as a point: We choose to deviate from PnP in order to make the game more survivable. This is what you said never happens. I was honest here, you were not - or simply mistaken. Let me know which one.
oldgrayrogue wrote:- death magic is less lethal -- woo hoo
I take it that is your "no pissing match" way of conceding a point?
oldgrayrogue wrote:- wealth levels are higher -- for who exactly? And DMs ultimately control wealth so this is, again, false narrative. Nor are there as many items available in game that are available in PnP.
Yeah I should have written wealth guidelines are higher, my mistake. Official ALFA policy suggests higher wealth levels for all PCs, in another deviation from PnP, mostly to account for our PW and CRPG nature. I think it does not hurt survival, though. DMs have discretion in this, but that would be something to take up with them, not claim ALFA never deviates from PnP when it helps survivability.
oldgrayrogue wrote:- opponents are dumber -- are you saying this is by design? Or is this a limitation on the AI? Game limitations make my PC a lot more limited as well. Without a DM there are innumerable actions I cannot take in game that I could execute in PnP. Plus a DM can possess an NPC and be on equal footing with my PC.
Yeah, it is arguable, but NPCs also do not have the same range of actions, had "morale" scripts to reduce their effective HP, and quite frequently are instructed to ignore bleeding characters (by design). Nobody here is out to finish off characters nor use PnP as a cudgel to make the game a living nightmare of corpses piling up - at least not me.
oldgrayrogue wrote:- hit points are considerably higher -- I'm pretty sure that applies to Mobs too yes?
I am not sure what adjustments ayergo or Rick have done to their servers, but NWN 1 monsters were not "max HPed" historically. Nor, I believe, adjusted upwards to match the increased NWN 1 player HP. In NWN 2 they were, but builders, at their discretion, actually changed this in some places; BG I believe is a valid example.
oldgrayrogue wrote:And lately I have been playing NWN1, where you roll for HP over level 3. I wonder, do Mobs do the same?
As above on the mobs. Are you still getting max HP on level 2 and 3 in a deviation from PnP we never wanted to address? Is this more or less survivability? Oh - and did you ever roll a 1 or a 2 levelling up in NWN 1 after level 3? No? Well that is because in NWN 1, you cannot roll less than half of your hit die, which also makes NWN 1 HP considerably higher than PnP. Now I still think that rolling HP at all is a terrible idea in a persistant world, but since you were not here to emphasise the common ground and agreement, but to prove me wrong, that is a tangent. What matters is: Did you not know how NWN 1 hit points work, or choose to not mention it to better fit your narrative? Was it an honest ommission, or debate tactics?

To top it off, here's two more points that do not fit your claim that we only alter to or from PnP to hurt survivability: We got rid of massive critical death saves, and we created NWN 1 potions able to be administered to others. Can you please simply accept that your statement
oldgrayrogue wrote:we always want to be more like PnP if it means adding lethality, but less like PnP if it means adding survivability
is less than accurate?
oldgrayrogue wrote:Anyway, I really don't want to get into a pissing match with anyone. Nor do I want to change the platform away from a PW. Nor do I want to give every player the right to pause the game whenever they want. Yes, we are all playing a video game model of DnD that tries to get as close to PnP as we can. Anyone in ALFA who has EVER played with me knows that I play my PCs totally IC when it comes to accepting risks. When they die I also don't gripe or moan or rage quit or any other nonsense -- I just reroll. I know the risks and accept them. My comments in this thread were just suggestions based on recent experiences in game. I'm not trying to change ALFA as we know it.
This is all well and good. I thought I made an effort here to feel you and share the frustration and acknowledge the problem (as I said frequently, I think DnD is nuts on level 1-2 and combat far too gambly).
oldgrayrogue wrote:But to suggest that over the decade I have been a part of this community "PnP" has not been used as a justification to deny all sorts of proposed changes that could have made the game less lethal -- especially at lower levels -- and perhaps less boring, and more attractive to folks that want to come play in our world, is simply the height of hypocrisy and the definition of Fake News.
I never claimed PnP was not used as a justification, in fact I said it is being brought up for debate tactics and as a yardstick. My point was that I disagree with PnP conformity having supreme authority as an argument, which I do not get tired of saying to anybody who brings it up. So, misrepresentation again. Heck, I was the one who suggested the toughness socket bump in deviation from PnP, I must be the holy roman emperor of hypocrites, playing mind games with my hypocrisy by sometimes supporting PnP and sometimes not, likely to make it more difficult for you to call me out on it. I'm a fox. At least hair-colour wise...
oldgrayrogue wrote:I've advocated on these boards over and over again through the years that lethality should be very low at the beginning levels as a matter of game design to enable players to develop a story based narrative for their PCs that does not get cut short by a lucky crit or a fat fingered key. I have advocated that lethality should grow exponentially as PCs gain in levels and power, because if it does not then the world is really only "permadeath" and "hardcore" for low levels. I've been accused of "waging a war on high levels" as a result, when really all I was trying to do is make the notion of "hardcore" and "permadeath" intellectually honest and applicable to all players across levels. I also think PC turnover after a story has had a chance to develop is a good thing, that keeps the game world fresh and keeps people playing. High levels surviving in perpetuity leads to game stagnation. Conversely, dying over and over at low levels just leads to frustration and a desire to NOT play.
And this is the part I whole-heartedly agreed with prior, but instead of showing as much passionate positive interaction as you did in your attempts at playing "gotcha", you almost make it sound like you are the lone champion of this attitude. We are allies in this despite your very best attempts to alienate me - levels 1 and 2 especially should be less lethal.
oldgrayrogue wrote: Worse, it leads to an OOC driven form of RP where players are taking actions with their characters that the PLAYER would take to preserve the PC from death, not that the character would take ICly. That is not an immersive form of story based RP. That is a video game.
Also a reasonable standpoint and a plausible worry. I think it is not as bleak as you paint this - the truth again is somewhere in the middle. As a simulationist, I think a character who pretends to be adept at combat in the game world should have some clue about the mechanics of combat in the game world; it should be common knowledge for experienced fighters that enemies will interfere with you trying to drink a potion at the last moment. It is not OOC to have an invisibility potion on a hotkey and use it one round before one hit would kill you. But yes, we should try to find ways to take a little twitch and gambling out of levels 1 and 2. Did I mention a socket amount of hit points might be a good idea?
oldgrayrogue wrote:So bottom line, sorry if I offended anyone's sensibilities, or threatened the Pillars of ALFA as we know it.
I am not a native speaker so my apologies if I misread this: But to me, the second half appears to be a snarky undercutting of the first, making me doubt the sincerity of the apology. Very happy to be corrected on this.
oldgrayrogue wrote:I don't like being called a liar though.
I do not think you are a liar. But I do think you painted an unfair and un-nuanced picture of ALFA policy, either as a genuine mistake, or out of frustration to support your narrative. Honestly, I expected you to just man up when called out on it and admit it - along the lines of "yeah I exaggerated that to draw attention to my point" (a point we mostly seem to agree on). Errare humanem est - sed in errare perseverare diabolicum.

So, peace, and sincere apologies if my replies stung, even if I did that deliberately. I think it was necessary to bring across that we are debating with fellow emotional human beings here.

Now, can we get that socket HP boost in some fashion?
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Re: Changing death

Post by Veilan »

Wild Wombat wrote:Stating categorically that ALFA is less or more dangerous/survivable than PnP is a complete non-starter! Danger/Survivability in PnP is completely in the hands of the DM. If somebody presumes to tell me that they know how the DMs I have played with behave, I have to laugh. I will say that in my experience DMs don't usually kill the PCs. But your experience may differ. That is my whole point.

So, I line up squarely on OGR's side when he says that PnP is more survivable. At least for me it was.

I will also vouch for OGR's commitment to playing his PCs like he feels they ought to be played. If he rolls up a barbarian, that barb does not wilt but always leads the charge. Me ... well, I truly don't like my PCs to die, so I don't play barbs. That makes OGR a much better RPer than I ever will be and I freely admit it. But since I play to have fun, and I know that I don't have as much fun when my PCs die, I have will have to accept that I don't live up to the standards of some hardcore players. I enjoy playing with and admirte you hardcore types, but I can never be you.

Aside: Ever heard of Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson? Ever been DMed by them? Well I have, at Michicon, 1978. I can tell you that they had a very different apporach to DMing and they wrote the books! It was a three round contest. We came out of round 1 and drew Arneson as our DM for round two. He was pretty lenient and we built up a substantial lead. Since we were in first place for round 3, we drew Gygax next. He was tough and half of the party died, including my PC. (We did end up winning the contest due to how much we dominated in round 2 and the points we got.)

Yup, I just dropped some names, but the point is that DMs come in all shapes, sizes and temperments. They determine what happens in PnP and are as easy to categorize as the rest of humanity.
Really agree with you Wombat. But, to give some food for thought: Just as you cannot categorically state difficulties, maybe so one could not state how good roleplay of a level 1 barbarian leading the charge is, eh? I, too, will vouch for OGR's RP any time of the day - especially since he has stated his agreement here with this nuance about headlong barbarian charges. I do not think one has to avoid playing barbarians at all and that there is more than one "true" narrative for them. For instance, what if someone were to play a level 1 barbarian as actually an inexperienced youth, who tries his best to be brave, but is still not immune to fear? Characters can be as nuanced as people.

I mean... you remember our sewer expedition in Waterdeep with JaydeMoon DMing, and the Drow ambushing us? Aszûne had never seen a Drow before and was an inexperienced level 2 fighter with hardly having killed a living creature before. She broke down and cried and sobbed and was completely useless. I still think this was good RP - granted it was not very effective combat either - but could a young barbarian (with a weak, you know, will save) react this way rather than going into a berserk rage too? Would that always be bad RP? Good RP?

I guess it always depends. There are ways to acknowledge the game while still playing in an immersive fashion. Overcoming this challenge, for me, is one of the main reasons why ALFA storylines are so gripping. I believe the modern term is "emergent storytelling", ALFA did that long before it was a buzzword, and it is the main draw for me as a simulationist. The best ALFA stories are real, not scripted.
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Re: Changing death

Post by Veilan »

vergin_sacrifice wrote:2. I suggest if it is possible; Raise the automatic or self stabilize to 50% if levels 1-3. I'd also suggest not making a big deal of it when it is done. Let people have their story of 'how I almost died' when they were just starting out. Characters will still die rampantly, but I think the ones that will not will have a rich story added to their timelines and encourage them to play longer and more often..)
I have been thinking about this in the tube, and I think there is a more feasible / simpler way of achieving this goal - namely what Rick initially proposed. To change our on death scripts to always start bleed-out at 0 HP - not how many you "should have" after the flooring hit? That way, both the chance to stabilise is higher when solo (depending on the monsters) and you have a little more reaction time in a party, and you do not skew it towards one demographic. Well, you still do - those couple of "bonus hit points before instant death" are worth relatively more the fewer HP you have overall. So in effec, this would be a bit of a HP boost for lower levels...

...did I ever mention I would be really in favour of giving every PC, I dunno, either a universal freebie feat of +X HP, or change the toughness feat so it gives x+level HP if we are worried about taking away people's choices? (Yes, we actually adopted the latter as ALFA policy, but nobody had any interest of implementing it so far.)

This need not preclude changing bleedout to start at 0 HP. Maybe a tech guy could chime in, but I think this should be doable much easier since we already do exacly that for death magic?
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Re: Changing death

Post by Rumple C »

Rumple C wrote:I'm confused. Is this a discussion for changing the death stuff in Alfa 1 or 2?
Still confused.
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Re: Changing death

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Rumple C wrote:
Rumple C wrote:I'm confused. Is this a discussion for changing the death stuff in Alfa 1 or 2?
Still confused.
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Re: Changing death

Post by Rick7475 »

Initially NWN 1 to test. I remember those sewer fights against the drow with JM DM'ing some of the most intense gaming ever!
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Re: Changing death

Post by Wild Wombat »

Veilan wrote: [snip]
I mean... you remember our sewer expedition in Waterdeep with JaydeMoon DMing, and the Drow ambushing us? Aszûne had never seen a Drow before and was an inexperienced level 2 fighter with hardly having killed a living creature before. She broke down and cried and sobbed and was completely useless. I still think this was good RP - granted it was not very effective combat either - but could a young barbarian (with a weak, you know, will save) react this way rather than going into a berserk rage too? Would that always be bad RP? Good RP?
[snip]
1) Your RP always amazed me. I always told you it was you could type so damn fast, but that was just me ribbing you! (But Croaker never forgave Aszune for jilting him!)

2) OGR already protested (in a friendly PM) my barbarian example, saying that he did /not/ play his dwarf barbarian to always charge headlong into battle. So, bad example based on a couple of sessions with OGRs barb. Now that I think on it, his PC and mine went out once and both agreed that retreat was the best option after being swarmed, but surviving.

But this is not about RP, and I am sorry for hi-jacking the thread. What I took as OGR's point was to start a dialog about making ALFA a bit more survivable, since for most - not all *glances at Rumple_C* - serial deaths can sap the desire to play. Something tells me that this has been raised before! But OGR got it going again.

There have been some good ideas put forth. Some may not be doable within the game engine.

However, can we stop the point by point take downs of other people's arguments? That way flame wars lie! Let's just say, instead, "Hey, I see what you are saying, but what about X," Or, "I think we can achieve something similar by just, Y." Or, even, "I can see your point of view, but I personally like the way things are working, it adds more excitement to the game." Using a scalpel to slice up somebody else's post just sets a negative tone, no matter how many "sorry if this offends" are sprinkled in ... and the spiral begins.

Final point: I am just here to play, like I was 15 years ago! Just like all of you. Tweak the death rules or don't, I am having fun.
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Re: Changing death

Post by Veilan »

Heh, you are absolutely correct, Care Wombat. And thanks for the flowers, in my defense I was... pretty damn young when I started playing ALFA. And glad to hear Rick and you remember those times, was good fun. JM was a mad genius, dancing on a knife's edge of sanity and it was 5 minutes to midnight while the volcano was erupting and the dead were rising from their graves.

The only thing I would disagree with is that it is not about RP. I think it is always about RP, because it is so easy to imagine the other into an extreme corner and pass judgment about what we personally consider "proper" RP. To some it is sacrilege if you even propose letting the game reality influence your RP, to others the opposite is true and you are considered a heretic for wanting to push through your concept against reality. At its core, I take this as a positive thing: We are passionate. But in practice, some aspects of this are inconsolable matters of taste. And as any German speaker knows, one cannot argue about taste and at the same time one can argue the very best about taste.

What I tried to point out in between is that I think on this issue there is a broad consensus and overlap, with a slew of proposed solutions now. We just cannot easily let go of our "rp-philosophical" underpinnings, and this leads to acrimony, especially when combined with an unwillingness to truly consider the underlying positions and statements of others, and when we put impassioned rhetorics above constructive deliberation. I know I have been guilty of that more than once in my time here, even when I heeded my own advice of re-reading before posting. Still, I insist we can call each other's BS out, heavens know we are all full enough of it.

Anyway, yeah, socket HP anyone?
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Re: Changing death

Post by Galadorn »

*slams the primary level thesaurus closed with authority*

Veilan’s words are so long they give me a headache even if they slip off the tongue like a fine wine.



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Re: Changing death

Post by ImStrokerAce »

I might be biased here, but I think Veilan roll a PC and start playing some NWN1 with us. :-)
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Mephis the Awkward Mage
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