30 Day Timer Request

[kid]

I think it's not just a matter of rules and loop holes and self twinking, swift.

I really wouldn't feel comfortable if some us (even me included) will have the ability to play and DM the same server, unless that is something we allow each and everyone of us.

We can't pretend that we don't still have many players that get overly attached and perhaps biased when their toons are involved, or others that "winning" seems important to them.

But even our most detached and story oriented players/DMs, that have absolutlty no sentiment to their toons (and are robots) may appear at fault in some situations when they theoretically have something to gain, enough to make other players feel not at ease...

I don't know. I really, personally, am not afraid of any intentional cheating, cause as you say those you can smack away.
But we don't need intentional cheating to make DM where you play a bad idea.

[oldgrayrogue]

I could care less if DMs play where they DM. Overt cheating is easily discovered, and can be punished. I also trust the DMA to take action on any DM who abuses their authority. When I think about all of the various DMs I have played with over the years in ALFA I cannot think of a single one I would have a problem playing with as a PC on the same server.

Any DM who is uncomfortable with the idea of playing where they DM can still refrain from doing so.

[Zelknolf]

This is the bed we have made for ourselves. I have long called for us to loosen up our restrictions and just punish the people who take advantage and exploit the rules, but ALFA as a community has always tended to lean the other way and just have more and more rules in an effort to not have loopholes. It continues to boggle my mind that we seem happy to loosen up rules on playing further and further, but DMs (which we have always been in short supply of and are the ones we trust with creating magic for the players) continue to have baffling restrictions.

I don't get what's boggling about it? You seem to answer your own question on that point. People don't like punishing people-- based on even cursory observation of activity information, I'd estimate that the community hates it. Even banning people who were unambiguously doing a thing that's called out specifically as bannable gets fallout that costs us players and activity.

When I think about all of the various DMs I have played with over the years in ALFA I cannot think of a single one I would have a problem playing with as a PC on the same server.

Seriously? Not a single one? We've had some terrible DMs. Sex for XP; undocumented console-command stat adjustments; items worth hundreds of thousands of gold renamed something mundane and marked plot for pet PCs; explicitly equipping people for CvC (or just directly assassinating the enemies of their friends' PCs); secret rebuilds with restricted classes. I'm sure there's more that I just haven't heard of or am not remembering now, but it's not hard to point to examples of extreme misconduct.

Of course, most people are great; in all roles most people are great, and most people operate with the full intention of doing the right thing. We acquire rules because some people suck, and it takes a lot of people being great to undo the damage of one person who sucks-- which is why "Any DM who is uncomfortable with the idea of playing where they DM can still refrain from doing so." seems inadequate. Anyone who's uncomfortable poisoning the well can indeed choose not to add more poison, and we can indeed note that if given a clear avenue to poison the well most people won't-- but that doesn't provide clean water. And in the context of a persistent world, the core concept is that there is but one "well" which we all drink from.

[kid]

I wouldn't even want you DMing while playing OGR, and I pretty much trust you as much as I can trust anyone.

For me it's not the fear of overt cheating.

It's both the bias (Do people like their characters? If so, then there is bias).
Or the appearance of a bias (even if there wasn't any, and the decision that happens to help your char was the "correct one", whatever that may be, it still can easily look bad to others).

Either is enough take away from my fun.

[Duck One]

Here we come to the heart of the problem. As you sit in your plain old sedan and that guy rolls up next to you at the stop light in that brand new shiny red sports car that costs so much money, which thought comes into your mind:

“Nice ride. Well done, sir. Maybe someday I’ll be that guy, but I am proud of my car too. It’s paid off and gets me to where I need to go, and I’ve got nothing to be ashamed of.”

or

“Hmph. I bet he stole it. Or faked some injury to win a lawsuit. Or his daddy gave it to him. Whatever the case, I doubt he deserves it.”

How is it we’ve gotten to where we are in our society that someone else’s choices needs to impact our satisfaction of our own choices? When did everything become a competition to the point that our independence and happiness is predicated on the actions of others? Lance Armstrong doped but it doesn’t mean I can’t go enjoy my bike ride. Tiger Woods cheated on his wife, but that has nothing to do with my marriage. Someone in ALFA twinked their character, okay but I can still login and enjoy adventure with no regard for it.

Why be concerned of someone who cheats to the point that it impacts your enjoyment? As far as your PC is concerned, other players in ALFA are the same as NPC’s. If it is a 6th level NPC helping you, or a 6th level PC helping you that earned every experience point legitimately, or a 6th level PC helping you that didn’t earn all of the experience, it doesn’t change the fact that you are teamed up with another 6th level chacter, and the result in your game is not affected.

My only issue with this is that the presence of this rule is limiting those who might otherwise DM, myself included.

[Brokenbone]

I will be interested to see if anyone takes up DMing briefly, takes a bow, and comes right back to play a reset later.

I'd do it if I could figure out a brutal funnel adventure for new 3rd PCs. Google "funnel adventures" but not sure how to simulate "awful level 0 like PC bumpkins." Even a "slave pits of Drazhu" rip off could be fun.

[kid]

If you like your character, you're biased. Jeebes it's like asking one of the sides in a soccer game to also officiate the game.

You really can't see the issue with that Duck?

Now... If we're all officiating (same as a game of soccer in the neighborhood), meaning, we're all DMs, then im fine with it.

Otherwise I wouldn't play basketball under the understanding that one of the players is the one that has the single say if something is a foul or not.
And it wouldn't matter if he was in my team or not. I wouldn't enjoy the game.

It's really not that hard to understand.

[HEEGZ]

I will be interested to see if anyone takes up DMing briefly, takes a bow, and comes right back to play a reset later.

I'd do it if I could figure out a brutal funnel adventure for new 3rd PCs. Google "funnel adventures" but not sure how to simulate "awful level 0 like PC bumpkins." Even a "slave pits of Drazhu" rip off could be fun.

Well, I have the ability to reset the servers. So I guess I can try my hand at micromanaging my DM access. I still have access to the BG and TSM DM forums (and of course don't read them as a rule), per the HDMs desire that I retain access. I'm sure that neither HDM has a problem with me do a stint of DMing, resetting the server and returning as a player. Seems an equitable middle ground between "play where you DM" and "wait 30 days to play where you just DM'd". Since the former seems a non-starter, and the latter is no longer applicable, it is now time for something new.

I'll try to get with shadow and see about something like this on BG. Curm hasn't replied to his personal email for the first time since I've known him, so not sure if I'll be able to reach him for comment on trying this out on TSM, or not.

[Zelknolf]

I will be interested to see if anyone takes up DMing briefly, takes a bow, and comes right back to play a reset later.

I imagine that if we were going to get any quality plot-focused DMing out of a policy, the "start playing next reset" policy would be enough of a dropped restriction. Focus on DMing while you're DMing and step down on a high note (hopefully making space for the next person with a good idea). I'm waiting for a lull in DM activity before I take the sort up myself; I'd hate to run a big "testing out these strategies for letting everyone be involved in a plot in different capacities" plot when doing so would steal other DMs' thunder.

I would suspect that people who are only enticed by playing where they DM would be a net loss; training DMs takes effort which could just be put straight into DMing, and actually stepping up enforcement would mean more DMs lost to "resignation" and more player attrition from dangling plots. And also attrition from any time that a DM appears to be up to no good (and, obviously, a DM who says "Cheating isn't bad. You guys should just be OK with cheating." will always look like he's up to no good)

[HEEGZ]

I've just posted to both BG and TSM DM forums to solicit feedback from the respective DM teams and HDMs. I might try something soonish, and will start cooking up ideas plot-wise to be the guinea pig on this. Naturally if there is no support from the DM teams it won't happen, but hopefully everyone is in the mood to trial the new policies in a way that increases DM coverage.

Micro-DM counting down to launch. . .

[kid]

The idea was to allow you to return to play quickly, and on that basis the whole thing was allowed.

The idea was NOT to allow weekend DMing.

Taking this rule change to do that while using the power to restart servers on your own is in very poor form.

DM a day, Player a DM, if that's what we want you just go and DM where you play.

[HEEGZ]

Well, there seems to be a matter of degrees that people are and aren't comfortable with. It seems like the majority were okay with shortening the 30 day timer. My OP asked for a 3, 7, or 10 day timer instead. What we got was after a reset with no day quantity specified. So... if a DM such as myself is able to restart the server after the session is done, well, under the current rule then back to PC status. This is the next best thing to DM where you play. It would be good to know what people are happy with. If I DM on one weekend, when is good to play, the following weekend?

Obviously I would prefer to play where I DM. Not seeking that though, just the happy medium ground for this. My PCs are not my end game here, I really enjoy them, but I can walk away from all of them. In fact, I think I would go so far as to roll up a new PC after each DM stint, just to have more control over how quickly I can switch between playing and DMing. In any case, still waiting to hear back from the HDMs and other DMs. I was pretty much done Admin/DMing in ALFA a week ago, because I honestly didn't expect this change to actually happen. I've spent an hour or so today planning out new DM quests, so I guess for me at least this was a good motivator to return to DMing at some point soon.

[Arianna]

I honestly do not think that the DM switching between being a player and being a DM should have the right/authority to reset the server themselves even if they have the ability to do so.

[kid]

I'm glad at the 30 day drop. I think it's a good step, no need to be overzealous.
But consistency might also be important.

And I understand where you're coming from, obviously, but can't have specific rules for specific people.

Anyways, yeah, HDMs', DMA's call.

[Arianna]

The whole I am going to play today , DM tomorrow and play again in two days concept . . is basically the same thing as being able to DM where you play which I am wholeheartedly AGAINST.