30 Day Timer Request

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HEEGZ
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Re: 30 Day Timer Request

Post by HEEGZ »

Arianna wrote:The whole I am going to play today , DM tomorrow and play again in two days concept . . is basically the same thing as being able to DM where you play which I am wholeheartedly AGAINST.
Right. It just occurred to me today that since I could reset the server myself, after finishing a DM session, I could effectively do just that. I'm working under the assumption that none of our current HDMs are really interested in that sort of DM activity on their servers. So, that is why I've started conversations in the DM forums to see what people think about the change, and a potential return of me as a DM under the new rules.

Ultimately this thread was about being able to switch between DM and player status more quickly. Now that is possible and I'm grateful. There is just a possibility of really rapid changes now, and it remains to be seen how rapid a change people are comfortable with.
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Re: 30 Day Timer Request

Post by FoamBats4All »

Nope.

You can restart the server and quit being an active DM. You can immediately go play, because of the reset.

But, you can't come back and DM without the HDM reapproving you. Because, you know, you quit, to go player side.
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Re: 30 Day Timer Request

Post by Rumple C »

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Swift
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Re: 30 Day Timer Request

Post by Swift »

FoamBats4All wrote:But, you can't come back and DM without the HDM reapproving you. Because, you know, you quit, to go player side.
Good DMs get re-approved on a regular basis already. If that re-approval became regular enough that the person simply worked out a deal with the HDM, that the HDM was happy with ("Ill run my campaign saturday and sunday, reset the server then be a player during the week") it wouldn't be any different to what it is now.

With HDM approval, it allows the closest thing to DMing where you play, to the point that I don't see why we don't just change the rule to say "You can play where you DM if granted HDM approval." That allows HDMs against it to maintain the status quo (and likely draw like minded players to their server) while allowing the more liberal HDMs and DMs to roll with it (and deal with whatever drawbacks it might bring if someone is naughty).
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Re: 30 Day Timer Request

Post by oldgrayrogue »

kid wrote:If you like your character, you're biased. Jeebes it's like asking one of the sides in a soccer game to also officiate the game.

You really can't see the issue with that Duck?

Now... If we're all officiating (same as a game of soccer in the neighborhood), meaning, we're all DMs, then im fine with it.

Otherwise I wouldn't play basketball under the understanding that one of the players is the one that has the single say if something is a foul or not.
And it wouldn't matter if he was in my team or not. I wouldn't enjoy the game.

It's really not that hard to understand.
I have coached baseball, football, soccer and am a Tae Kwon Do instructor. In most early age "youth" leagues where the focus is on learning and fun, and not on competition and winning, the coaches and teammates do in fact officiate their own games and matches. No one ever takes issue with it because the objective is not to "win" the contest but to participate together, learn, and have fun. We all trust each other because we all share a common goal. Are there some coaches and instructors, even at that level, who "favor" there own kids, maybe even from some subconscious bias? Sure, but that's what we call a "teaching moment" or a "life lesson." In RL I am an extremely competitive person. What I do for a living is essentially a high stakes contest. But ALFA is not supposed to be about who wins and loses the "game." It is a "participation" sport where the experience of playing with others to craft a story is (or is supposed to be) the enjoyment and the reward. Sure we all get excited when we get good XPs, a new shiny sword, or find a chest full of phat loot. That is part of the fun of the game. But I agree with Duck to this extent, in the end its all just bits and bytes of code on someone's computer inside a video game world -- why does what someone else has ruin my game? Who cares? When I was playing in SE we had our own Guildhouse with all kinds of cool stuff -- it was a place for really fun RP that many, many players outside of the group enjoyed. I mean Veilan's PC is a Baroness of Khelb. Alyra a Commander of the Knights in Silver. Perse has her own Temple and growing city around it. Doesn't bother me in the least. In fact I think its all pretty cool.

And Zhelk, I am unaware of a single one of those horrible incidents you describe, and have still managed to have loads of fun with lots of DMd play here over the years. If you focus on the experience that is truly rewarding, the abuses matter less. And as far as unwillingness to punish, I disagree. We like to give folks chances, many chances to change for the better because this is a game after all. But in the end the bad apples are weeded out.
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Re: 30 Day Timer Request

Post by Zelknolf »

oldgrayrogue wrote:But in the end the bad apples are weeded out.
I disagree.
HEEGZ wrote:Micro-DM counting down to launch. . .
Swift wrote:Good DMs get re-approved on a regular basis already. If that re-approval became regular enough that the person simply worked out a deal with the HDM, that the HDM was happy with ("Ill run my campaign saturday and sunday, reset the server then be a player during the week") it wouldn't be any different to what it is now.
I find it interesting that an offered compromise is immediately subverted into not a compromise at all.
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Re: 30 Day Timer Request

Post by Swift »

Zelknolf wrote:I find it interesting that an offered compromise is immediately subverted into not a compromise at all.
That is what "After a reset" would allow, if both sides agreed to it. It subverts the spirit of the rule, but people have subverted the spirit of tons of rules in ALFAs time without punishment, so this would hardly be something new. If we continue to leave the same restrictions on DMs we have always had while continually loosening the rules around playing, something like this is bound to happen eventually.
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Re: 30 Day Timer Request

Post by Zelknolf »

Swift wrote:That is what "After a reset" would allow, if both sides agreed to it. It subverts the spirit of the rule, but we have subverted the spirit of tons of rules in ALFAs time, so this would hardly be something new. If we continue to leave the same restrictions on DMs we have always had while continually loosening the rules around playing, something like this is bound to happen eventually.
All of the reasons that you say this
Swift wrote:With HDM approval, it allows the closest thing to DMing where you play, to the point that I don't see why we don't just change the rule to say "You can play where you DM if granted HDM approval."
are the reasons that you're taking this compromise in bad faith.

A faster transition back into playing is what was asked for and what was offered. The response is a wish to twist it into day-long tenures as a DM repeated perpetually, leaving the DM to read any posted documentation about other DMs' plots that they're playing in (or risking accidentally ruining those plots) and leaving them to play on a server where their own plots are still active.
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kid
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Re: 30 Day Timer Request

Post by kid »

Not a proper analogy OGR. It's not one of the coaches.

I don't understand why we're being so adamant about it, wanting the cake whole and eating it too.
You have a group of players, make two sets of toons, one of the group party memebers can DM TSM, another can DM BG, another can DM MS, the players can rotate, if not on a weekend basis, on a monthly or bi monthly basis, switch DMs, and plots (and not just do a weekend DMing of basically drop loot and monsters - cause that's pretty much all you can do in a 4 hour adventure - and while fun and good - that's not what we strive for I think?)

We have plenty of options that still keep a certain nice and safe separation that makes everyone feel relatively comfortable.
Choose those, and stop fighting for the ones that will cost us more than what you'd earn.

You keep telling us we should feel like you do, well, we don't.
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Re: 30 Day Timer Request

Post by Wynna »

This feels like playing where you DM. It was never about the possibility of twinking yourself, to me. I confess myself a blinkered straight-arrow who never saw that very obvious potential until it was pointed out. Now that I do, of course, I can't unsee it. And therein lies the rub.

For me, it's always been about the knowledge a DM has of the server, of the secret places and easter eggs. The inability to partition one's brain and remove that information, to remove that unavoidable advantage or even the perception of an unavoidable advantage is why I can't agree with this micro-DMing (good name for it!) policy. I had wrestled myself around to agree with the benefits of changing the 30 days cool down period between DMing and playing to a server reset, but going back and forth as player and DM is a step too far for me.
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Re: 30 Day Timer Request

Post by Duck One »

kid wrote:If you like your character, you're biased. Jeebes it's like asking one of the sides in a soccer game to also officiate the game.

You really can't see the issue with that Duck?

Now... If we're all officiating (same as a game of soccer in the neighborhood), meaning, we're all DMs, then im fine with it.

Otherwise I wouldn't play basketball under the understanding that one of the players is the one that has the single say if something is a foul or not.
And it wouldn't matter if he was in my team or not. I wouldn't enjoy the game.

It's really not that hard to understand.
You really make my point for me. Basketball is a competitive sport where the players are pitted against one another and the performance of one player changes the game of all, and an unfair ruling impacts all participants. D&D is not competitive, and one player's experience doesn't impact another (except of course if we're talking about PvP, which is only by player choice in ALFA). A better comparison would be golf where you're really out there to play against yourself and your own enjoyment of the game. If you cheat on your golf score, who cares, I can still play my round of golf and not be impacted by your cheating. This is why you don't see officials roaming the links, and golf is a self-officiated game (except of course where major professional tournaments are involved, and if ALFA ever starts offering prize money then I'll move into your camp on this issue).

If, for instance, I were to DM and also play Darhthmec, and succumb to whatever temptation there is and for whatever reason help Darhthmec out, it doesn't change your PC John or your chances for adventure. John's story is still John's story. His interaction with Darhthmec is no different that his interaction with Lady Alustriel, two other characters in his realm. Lady Alustriel didn't "earn" all that experience, levels, wealth, power, and influence she has. She is made up entirely on the spot and instantly granted all that. Nothing was "earned". Do you begrudge her power and status as being unearned? Does that ruin your game?

NPC's are no different from other players PC's as far as you and your character is concerned. Both can be part of your character's story, and both have positive or negative impact. In fact, if you're truly playing your PC correctly, you should approach them much in the same fashion. Why do you care what percentage of the other PC is fairly "earned", when absolutely none of the NPC's stuff is ever "earned"? The only question of fairness you should really be concerned with is, "Do the challenges being put in front of me give me a fair chance at adventure?"

Think of it this way: What if the game didn't have all of its flaws, and you couldn't tell an NPC from a PC, and never knew if the voice behind that other character was that of another player or a DM controlling an NPC? Would you care then how "legit" those other characters are? 99% of those characters are DM created fabrications, and 99% of the other 1% are probably entirely legit PC's, and the remaining 0.01% probably doesn't change your game's outcome, yet you are concerned with a policy to try to prevent that 0.01% from ever happening.

Let's try another tact then:

Things that defeat ALFA's policy:

Two players colluding: "Hey, you DM on that server, and I'll DM on this server, then we'll help each other's PC's out". Or "Hey, I'll give you all this wealth if you walk over to this other server and give my PC half" Or "hey, I'll give your PC a whole bunch of stuff, then in 30 days I'll roll up a PC and you give me half"

Doing it by yourself: build something into the module (dialogue branch that would only apply to very specific case) then later switch roll up a PC that fits that specific case

How about simply having two Gamespy ID's and labeling 1 and DM and 1 as player. (maybe separate CD keys and and IP spoofer for good measure). Why stop at 2? In fact go ahead make 6 or 8 and elect yourself DM admin while you're at it.

Truth is you can't really 100% stop all potential exploitation, and this particular rule while well-intentioned is preventing good honest people from offering more content. I would start a campaign on TSM tonight if this rule was changed. Even if people exploit it, it shouldn't change your game.
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Brokenbone
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Re: 30 Day Timer Request

Post by Brokenbone »

Wynna wrote:<Snip>
For me, it's always been about the knowledge a DM has of the server, of the secret places and easter eggs. <Snip>
All the servers are on Github and in cases have been there for years. Whether you're a player, DM, or even a non-member of ALFA, anyone with an internet connection can open these babies up and either run around them with a PC like a single player scene... or open them in the toolset and look at what is where. Ex-DMs do not get lobotomized as part of the traditional 30 day wait period either, nor do their hard drives get wiped of any past "working copy" of the mod they may have had when perhaps actively building. Volunteer builders often have copies of the mods too, without necessarily a wish to DM or an intent to either. The concept of secret modules, that ship sailed a long while back I figure.

...

Back to a more general topic, not re: Wynna's point of secret places / easter eggs...

The community is always praising what few DMs we have at any given moment (lucky if we have 3 highly active at a time, though there might be 10-15 around, possibly doing more background / limited in game presence than the most prolific folks). Then goes nuts at the prospect of elaborate abuse (what if they seed loot in a secret PERSISTENT container that will survive reset, to go and get, oh lawd what then?) Also the prospect of ALFAns (gasp) becoming friends and you can't trust someone to DM friends, as it will be a cakewalk of XPGP.

I doubt we'd have many people interested in brief DMing stints, though HEEGZ seems to be waving his hand as interested. Do a little couple things for a party idea, but then at other times, play. DMless, absent statics, there is very little to do but bash highly dangerous monsters, often for 1-2xp max, and loot is sort of self-correcting too if you get too wealthy (i.e., no more loot appears). We have hardcore nosy neighbour syndrome up in here too, so if DM ABC shifts to PC ABC, "someone or other" will double check ABC's character inventory and acquisition patterns religiously to see if there is a whiff of wrongdoing. If ABC lucked into a really nice piece of armor for their concept, it'd be a Culnarion-like witch hunt to see where the heck it came from.

EDIT- also I think we're waiting for abuses of any sort, Heero is bored and wants to do some tarring and feathering.
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Re: 30 Day Timer Request

Post by kid »

There are millons of options. HEEGZ wants to play BG/TSM, that's fine, DM MS. I'm sure he'll find a group of willing players.

There's no reason to continue to hackle at the one option that makes too many of us too uncomfortable.
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Re: 30 Day Timer Request

Post by Zelknolf »

Brokenbone wrote:Then goes nuts at the prospect of elaborate abuse
I take issue with jamming "prospect" in there like these things never happen. We acquired all of our rules in moments of facepalming and wondering why in the world Wheaton's Law is inadequate.

See also: repeated previous posts about how DMs are given the luxury of no censure and their misconduct being treated as private; I bet a lot of this would be resolved by just changing that. If the community knew every time that a DM was asked to resign, I bet there'd be a lot less wondering why they need to be limited.
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Re: 30 Day Timer Request

Post by Brokenbone »

I more meant "prospect" as in "some new form of abuse" which is somehow uniquely open to any kind of "come and go" DMing.
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