best passage about D&D by Gygax...

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Duck One
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Re: best passage about D&D by Gygax...

Post by Duck One »

I watched GG play once at a convention in Wisconsin. Everyone wanted to make a big deal about him being there, but he just wanted to play. Some interesting things I observed:

He didn't care which PC he got (they were all prerolled and you picked one up to play), he was willing to take any of them.
He referred his character in the 2nd or 3rd person, as "he", or "the elf", never by the PC's name, or "I"/"me"
He never spoke as if he was speaking for his character, "Excuse me, sir, is there someplace in this town which sells arrows?". Instead he narrated, "The elf asks around town to try to find someone willing to sell him some more arrows"
He was very energized by the tactics of the game, liked putting things down on the map, almost like playing miniatures.


In short, based upon what I saw, I am not sure he would buy into the level of role playing seen in ALFA, at least based upon what I saw. The game does have social elements (diplomacy skill, etc.), but those things can impact the plot story arc to drive the PC's to adventure....it is not the entire adventure itself.
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Xanthea
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Re: best passage about D&D by Gygax...

Post by Xanthea »

I believe, as far as I recall, he said words to the effect of "This isn't an amateur theatre production. Your characters are nothing more than your game pieces."
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Re: best passage about D&D by Gygax...

Post by gonz.0 »

I always enjoyed gaming from the first night I did it with some friends. It was a unique thing that gave you as much as you were willing to put into it.

That said, I've always developed personalities for my characters, let them live in my head on a subset of my psyche. I let them make the decision and try very hard to never interviene and make it a logical decision based on all information, only on what the character can know or knows in their gut. They become a living person in my head, and as such, I can't look at them like pieces on a chess board to be moved around for most effect. Yeah, sometimes they make stupid rash decisions and sometimes they die or become heroes. But at least in my head, they live.

Role playing to me, has never been about JUST the combat or the dice roles. These are elements to a whole story, that we are writing together. Thats why we have creative writing segments to our website, isn't it? Because it's recognized that ALFA is an ongoing story with many writers playing their parts?

I wouldn't be here if the characters were 2 dimensional, and without personality, and could not be interacted with as one might a real person. Sure, Gygax was the creator of the first D&D games, but then he sold them and moved on. We are the ones who are playing the games. It's the players who matter, not who created the game. With out players, you just have a cool game, that you can be proud of, but what fun is it?
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Re: best passage about D&D by Gygax...

Post by Dorn »

Bloody well put that last para gonz
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Re: best passage about D&D by Gygax...

Post by johnlewismcleod »

Yeah...I agree with Gonzo and Dorn...as long as they don't agree with Xan, of course 8)
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Re: best passage about D&D by Gygax...

Post by Zelknolf »

To be clear, when I said "mechanical depth," I didn't mean that as a proxy for "narrative depth." I meant mechanical depth.

Just that claiming that Gygax wouldn't want us to have conflicts at faction or state level is crazy; he got super excited by that stuff. More pieces, more options, and more-cerebral play was always good.
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Re: best passage about D&D by Gygax...

Post by Ithildur »

I get where the OP is coming from to some extent, but I never really understood why Gygax is so venerated... I mean, seriously. He was a war gamer who helped make up a game which evolved long after he had much to say about it. A GAME. The way some folks talk about him you'd think he ended world hunger or something.

ALFA's never been a typical DnD place anyway; GG would have made for a terrible ALFAn.
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Re: best passage about D&D by Gygax...

Post by Veilan »

Is this the nerd version of debating what the founding fathers might have wanted?
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Re: best passage about D&D by Gygax...

Post by Xanthea »

My point, at least, is that D&D started as a dungeon crawling wargame and all its iterations have been built on that foundation. If people want to play grand fantasy intrigue, or whatever, then they're building on flawed foundation and would be better served by playing a system designed to support that sort of thing.

Obviously that's harder in ALFA that it is in PnP because, you know, the engine and all. But they would certainly have more success in making D&D into something it's not if they stopped faithfully adhering to its ruleset and instead set out to design something more suitable.
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Re: best passage about D&D by Gygax...

Post by dergon darkhelm »

Veilan wrote:Is this the nerd version of debating what the founding fathers might have wanted?
If that's the corollary, then I'm Scalia.
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Re: best passage about D&D by Gygax...

Post by Duck One »

It is an interesting topic because it speaks to the question of “why are we all here?” What’s the point? We’ve all come here to play NWN, but to what end? Without a common understanding of that, the group will not move in the same direction. This is why the organization of the group starts with assumptions that are written down: the Pillars, so that all who come here understand the perspective of the entire group. One of those pillars is that ALFA is D&D, but what does that mean? To answer that it can be very instructive to look to the guy who created it.

D&D is a fantasy adventure game. That word adventure is key. The whole premise of adventure is that you assume a risk in order to earn a reward. The game mechanism that is devoted to this is experience points; an acknowledgment that a character has grown from his adventurous experience. The bigger the risk taken, the higher the reward. You need only look at how much time and effort is invested in the rules for experience and levels to understand how pivotal it is to the construct of the game.

Moreover, the game also makes allowances that players can actually lose experience points by doing non-adventurous things. On the face of it, one might think that the item crafting and enchanting processes would give the character more knowledge and “experience”, but the game instead takes experience points away. It is as if to say, “sitting around your wizard’s lab and making potions has actually dulled your character’s skills because he’s not assuming adventurous risks.” This is no accident. If character development is what is desired, then the path is to get out there and take some risks; have an adventure.

The plots therefore should provide the characters adventurous opportunities. Things like politics, character motives, personal relationships, professional relationships, religious motives, wealth, glory: these are the reasons to assume risks; the context of the plots that present opportunities for adventure. But do not confuse them with the risks themselves. It is the job of the DM to use these motives to craft a story which presents the players with opportunities for adventure; to leverage these to find good reasons for the players to take risks.

So it is quite relevant what Gary Gygax was thinking because it is manifest in the foundational assumptions of the game dynamic. DM’s craft stories to appeal to character motivations to take on risks to bring about adventure, and the system of rewards and advancement is built upon that fundamental formula. D&D has evolved to become more robust and broad, but that base assumption has never changed.
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