Not Exactly DMs

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oldgrayrogue
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Not Exactly DMs

Post by oldgrayrogue »

OK, been reading the many ideas on the forums lately and the whole DM where you play issue and thought I would revive an issue I have brought up several times in the past in ALFA that usually got no traction. I still think its a good idea and we seem to have folks looking for new ideas/changes so I will throw it out there again.

The first NWN2 server I played on was called the Frontier. I met Ithildur and some other long time RP friends there. In addition to DMs this PW had something called RP Advisors or "RPA's" that were not quite DMs but close. The role of the RPA was to basically help bring the server to life. It was also used as a "training ground" of sorts to becoming a DM. Some of the best DMs on that server ended up coming out of the RPA ranks. So basically, RPA's had access to the DM Client and authority to use it in a very limited way. You were allowed to possess NPCs to provide what the Frontier called "spice." IE you could possess that tavern keeper or guard and help bring a setting to life with other players. Or you could possess monster spawns or bandits or whatever and RP them as antagonists. You were only allowed to do this in one off ad hoc events, no campaigns. You also were allowed to award loot and XP but only in very limited quantities. I think there was actually a special RPA drop down menu on the client that you could use that limited the amounts of these rewards. You could spawn chests and loot but it was only mundane items. RPAs did NOT have access to the DM forums. However, they were often used by DMs to "play" NPCs in campaign sessions. The idea was that the RPA's were folk with "proven RP skills" who could not only help bring the server to life but also help guide new players into how to become immersive RPers. As I say, it was also meant to be a training and proving ground for future DMs.

Anyway, it was a very fun way for folks who did not want to full blown DM, or were not really comfortable running a campaign or what not, to get behind the screen and spice up the server. I found it really brought the server to life.

ALFA should consider implementing something like this. I know the response will be "Why not just DM and do all of these things, no one says you have to run a campaign?" But DMing in ALFA has limitations that some folks would rather not deal with.
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Re: Not Exactly DMs

Post by Zelknolf »

A feature of the ACR that remains entirely unused, which may be of interest to folk.

The "voice thrower" commands (select a creature, #<number>; later use #<number> <message> to speak through the NPC; everything the NPC hears goes to your server window) are available for consumption by players, but only on NPCs who are flagged as able to be manipulated in that fashion by that player. Nobody set up those flags, so the feature doesn't get used. But given the support of HDMs and appropriate admin, it could be done basically whenever.
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Re: Not Exactly DMs

Post by Arianna »

Zelknolf wrote:A feature of the ACR that remains entirely unused, which may be of interest to folk.

The "voice thrower" commands (select a creature, #<number>; later use #<number> <message> to speak through the NPC; everything the NPC hears goes to your server window) are available for consumption by players, but only on NPCs who are flagged as able to be manipulated in that fashion by that player. Nobody set up those flags, so the feature doesn't get used. But given the support of HDMs and appropriate admin, it could be done basically whenever.

Probably cause we have no idea it exists
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Re: Not Exactly DMs

Post by Zelknolf »

Arianna wrote:Probably cause we have no idea it exists
I did post about it that one time that I released it. Obviously everyone should remember all of those posts.



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Re: Not Exactly DMs

Post by CloudDancing »

I just showed someone how to do it yesterday (while I was playing a PC nonetheless) Spread the word of awesome.
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Re: Not Exactly DMs

Post by Dorn »

So, Zelk just to be clear.

If I was a player, in the player client, I could speak through an NPC to my party members to give 'quests' etc?

Provided:
- curm and wynna were mad enough to trust me
and
- these NPCs properties are changed to allow players to do it or
- these NPCs properties are changed to allow GSID Dorn to do it

We have a regular player driven session where the majority of people involved have been DMs and i believe are 'old farts in good standing'. The ability to take turns in both playing but providing interaction would be simply awesome and really allow us to combine with set and forget encounters a DM may drop a few days before our session.
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Re: Not Exactly DMs

Post by FoamBats4All »

http://www.alandfaraway.info/wiki/Text_Commands

#setdesc, #sethp, anchoring (works as a player on familiars, but not on NPCs), #ifs/#ifl/#not. All good stuff.
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Re: Not Exactly DMs

Post by Zelknolf »

Dorn wrote:So, Zelk just to be clear.

If I was a player, in the player client, I could speak through an NPC to my party members to give 'quests' etc?

Provided:
- curm and wynna were mad enough to trust me
and
- these NPCs properties are changed to allow players to do it or
- these NPCs properties are changed to allow GSID Dorn to do it

We have a regular player driven session where the majority of people involved have been DMs and i believe are 'old farts in good standing'. The ability to take turns in both playing but providing interaction would be simply awesome and really allow us to combine with set and forget encounters a DM may drop a few days before our session.
This isn't quite the design of the system. The idea was more that there are a few regions where there's a player who is an obvious authority in the area and knows crazy amounts of canon about it (like Veilan and Khelb, SwordSaintMusashi and the Knights in Silver, me and Ruqel), and so any given NPC can be flagged with "This player may speak for this NPC" -- and that overrides the normal "not on NPCs" qualification for anchors for that player.

By its current design, the system wouldn't let you have a rotating set of quest-giving players unless you also had a rotating build. Each NPC can only have one player allowed to speak for them. And of course that wouldn't give you the ability to grant loot or XP. Just RP.
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Re: Not Exactly DMs

Post by oldgrayrogue »

Honestly that sounds an awful lot like DM where you play -- or in my parlance "Not Exactly DM" where you play and I am all for it.

If certain established players are trusted enough to speak for NPCs in certain areas then why not have those players have limited authority to grant XP and loot? On the Frontier, everything the RPAs did was with DM oversight, could be the same here. My only caveat would be that the player/quest giver should not be able to actually participate in the quest. That's tantamount to DMing yourself.

Honestly, I have always believed that once a PC becomes so powerful and influential as to essentially become an NPC, that player should be given the option to play the PC as a DM/NPC.
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Re: Not Exactly DMs

Post by Zelknolf »

It's probably worth noting that technical ability isn't the same as something being accepted and practiced. To be clear, no HDM has set this on any NPC to my knowledge, and I think that a PA could make a strong case for this being at least cross domain (PA does, after all, define the conditions under which people may have characters here).

That said-- I think there's entirely-different levels of trust required to trust a player to role play with NPCs (which is really something we already do-- how many one-sided conversations with random NPCs meant to gather information about other characters do we currently negotiate through tells? My own observation suggests "a lot") and the levels of trust required to let players dole out rewards (which is already a topic of routine contention among DMs, and they have less potential for conflict of interests). I suspect that trying to bundle the two will result in both flopping.
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Re: Not Exactly DMs

Post by Ithildur »

We did have something called 'ADM' (assistant/apprentice?) positions at one time... not quite what you're describing, but similar, with one big difference obviously (play where you ADM/RPA).

Couple thoughts: if the option of becoming a 'not exactly DM' were available where I could do some DM-like things while still being able to play a PC on say, TSM where I could get in on Wynna's DMage as a player, I would undoubtedly be tempted (I think I've subconsciously avoided reading Wynna's DM forum posts just in case!). But that actually means (setting aside the fact that atm I am neither active as player or DM due to RL priorities) one less DM for TSM that could be (if priorities/schedules shifted!) say, running stuff like I did for Knights Draconis or Pies and Pennies.

Would this actually help ALFA in the long run or be counterproductive?

I suppose it's a tradeoff; if my availability/time/energy were such that I could afford to occasionally log in to add texture/'spice', run occasional stuff of limited scope/one offs, etc. but not be able to commit to my own ongoing plot or regular sessions, a little bit of 'spice' is better than nothing at all. The ideal to shoot for is at least one plot running/'full time'/regular session DM on every server, I'd say, but if the ideal isn't realistic for now, maybe the tradeoff is worthwhile... IF this 'RPA' idea actually would result in people signing on as such AND juggling being a player and RPA simultaneously well.

Perhaps a reasonable thing to do is to put the question out there to two groups: current DMs (active or inactive), and those who might consider DMing (or have considered in the past, etc). So far there doesn't seem to be much response to this thread from the people that we'd need to ask this... which might indicate indifference/negligible impact? But still, just to be sure, ask these folks whether such a position would increase the likelihood of logging in without their PCs. If the answer is no or negligible difference, then this idea is probably a dead one even without considering other issues like preserving integrity, etc., which I believe still need to be addressed even if the response is a clear 'yes' to the above question.
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Re: Not Exactly DMs

Post by Brokenbone »

I like OGR's idea, I further like that some form of flagging can be done to NPCs, to let that voice throwing thing happen. The set anchor stuff was handy for brief flirts with DMing. No need to run around and possess guys when you could flag barman as #1 then type "#1 Want a drink?" and such NPC would speak the string. Messing with flags probably "takes work" though at a module maintainer end. Or alternately, if there was buy in of what, all 4 HDMs, somehow reversing the preferred status from "off" to "on" is maybe do-able at a global level, beats me.

Since I saw drift to XP awards too being mentioned... would it break the game if every ALFA PC had a 1/d unique power 0.0 weight item that let you award 10, 20, 50 or 100xp to someone other than self? That stuff would show up in logs if it turned out there was some TERRIBLE PACT whereby a pair of people just logged in 10 seconds per IG day to XP each other off. I forget how to write scripts, particularly in a way that might make a cookie-token-thingy reflect as if it was a new category of "Peer XP" but it couldn't be that hard, could it? Little parties who are out having fun and not DM'd might all say "good time" and award each other 50xp in a circle for beating up the plantation orc or something. Hurray, tiny bit of xp for your trouble (despite being down 3 CLW pots and can't afford better than banded).
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Re: Not Exactly DMs

Post by gonz.0 »

I'd be for it, sure. For the examples given of course. Most notably, as i've been playing there recently, Zelk should be able to literally order one of her followers to move to a position and stay there, and speak for them like a puppeteer. as her Persephone is the leader of that group, captain of the guard etc. The same goes for SSM's Alyra and her knights, or the guards who should listen to the Baroness of Kelb.
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Re: Not Exactly DMs

Post by kid »

I still kinda think that if you wanna control your NPCs, retire your PC, take a wand and DM.
That's the proper way to do it.
That way you can control whatever you want, reward whatever you want, etc.

Players should never be in such positions of power on the server, it ruins the fun, interferes with DM plots and it is more trouble than it's worth.
Nothing personal against SSM/Zelk.

I remember SSM especially tries to make sure Alyra doesn't hinder any DM efforts, and still would be a hell of a lot better to have SSM DM the knights, and have Zelk DM Ruqel.
Giving them voice control or puppet control while still keeping PCs playable is meh.
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Re: Not Exactly DMs

Post by Zelknolf »

kid wrote:Players should never be in such positions of power on the server, it ruins the fun, interferes with DM plots and it is more trouble than it's worth.
I would, obviously, respond that DMs who demand levels of control that they feel disrupted by PCs who acquire power or influence are railroad DMs who ruin fun and are more trouble than they're worth.

Removing elements of stratified social or political influence is the removal of consequence for social or political action. These consequences (good at bad) are one of the core things that makes ALFA an immersive role playing environment; taking it out leaves us with swordsmen who sometimes cry about their dead parents to try to pretend not to be shallow mechanics.
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