Increasing Player Activity / Density

[Dorn]

One could probably argue a no-real-change leader swap in Baldur's Gate (particularly because Eltan died before ALFA canon began... and because he's retconned alive he's like 80), though it would be a pretty big chunk of work to have the city be sacked by Zhents, and also introduces a challenge for how to distribute that information (how do new players get prompted to brush up on the ALFA canon here? There's established canon for Baldur's Gate which they probably know and would assume is correct until told otherwise).

But (not knowing the political structure of BG) the opportunity for intruige, political assassination, press ganging, zhentilar buying votes or even importing a succubus to meddle with the election of s new duke who may have a deep dark secret/alliance could open up SO much with such a little change! I mean the zhents dont always invade with armies, they are as much a political and economic force.

[Zelknolf]

But (not knowing the political structure of BG) the opportunity for intruige, political assassination, press ganging, zhentilar buying votes or even importing a succubus to meddle with the election of s new duke who may have a deep dark secret/alliance could open up SO much with such a little change! I mean the zhents dont always invade with armies, they are as much a political and economic force.

Well... the trouble is still that the sorts of political changes that Fzoul on the council of four would imply would be a lot of build. It would still be a lot of opportunity for plot, of course, but the full implications aren't small. It's not considering the full implications that tends to get people all amped up about cool ideas and then shot down-- it eventually ends up in front of people who have experience managing servers, and they need to know how we're going to accomplish a lot of things (but the haver of the cool idea hasn't actually done anything like this before and hasn't hashed out what all it will mean and what needs work to make it happen).

I don't know that there's good answers there. It seems that you have to be terrible at making things change for a while before you can be good enough at it to get results. I guess you can go rogue with it-- discretely tell a group of players that a thing is different and avoid letting your HDM know that it's done, so it becomes a quasi-canon among a small group of people (ALFA has totally seen that), but then you just get overturned later, usually to the rancor of significant drama and burnout.

This is all why having a plan, being consistently available to handle unexpected bits, coordinating with HDMs, and being judicious about targets goes a long way.

[kid]

Don't be a Boom or a Ronan.

I wish all our DMs were a Ronan.

[Xanthea]

God forbid anyone be the best DM ALFA's ever had.

[Lokan]

I'm not saying that the apprehension to slowly make changes here and there to our world isnt founded. It is hard to reconcile every DMs little changes, and hard to keep up with all the different ways each DM plays a particular NPC. I don't think it all has to be perfect. We as a collective whole would really need to be open to widening our own field in order to tell our own story. Like Kid is saying, I tend to be reluctant to make broader pen strokes as a DM because I fear making "seemingly" irreconcilable alterations to "canon". Im not debilitated by it, but I think I tend to hold back. I that that change, and the promise of making lasting interesting stories it what Alfa was made for, and by reading this thread is what alot of people are looking for.

We all may be in more agreement than I perceive right now as far as willingness to allow DMs to tell stories. But as of right now I feel hindered...maybe its totally unfounded.

As far as willingness to add to the technical work of making changes...Ive got a few areas in BG under my belt, but we dont need it. We can have an abundance of the most detailed, static content filled areas which rival world or warcraft, but I dont think that is at the coure of what we players in Alfa are looking for here. We want personal, interesting stories.

Heck! one of the most interesting sessions I had as a player was with BRM. Our PCs were traveling through a forested area for a considerable amount of time to reach an old hermit deep in the woods....we played it with our avatars in a single IG area, and barely moved from the one spot IG. We had several different kinds of encounters including battles.

Of course if there are sweeping changes that require alterations such as changing all the Flaming Fist guards to Zhentarium guards....someone has to put in the work, got it. This fear of putting the the work for change to stick hinders actual persistent change, and is why we would generally have to agree as a community, as DMs and as TA what is a priority. At certain points, maybe making cosmetic changes are more important that updating the ACR. But even this isnt totally needed. We could place a note in the forums, an IG sign outside of the Blade and Stars that says ((All of the Flaming Fist guards are should be RPed as being Zhentarium)), old players OOCly clue in new player, DMs give a synopsis of the state of the world as new players turn in new PC bios, etc. Rest assured, not actually replacing the guards IG isnt the greatest way to do it...immursion breaking, got it, but it could be done. When we play PnP there is no ACR.

As far as keeping up with all the changes, and addressing them to players... I dont think we can do it perfectly, nor do we have to, but I would answer....we do it the same way we learn about PnP canon now. The biggest way we could do that is keep an ongoing Alfa Calendar of Harptos. Also, players might have to experience the world around them through DMs and RP with other players to learn the differences...that actually might lead to RP and some excitement.

This is how its done in the PnP world....http://www.amazon.com/Grand-History-Rea ... 0786947314

EDIT: and I guess this is how we do it here in ALFA, which looks very good wiki

I agree that there would need to be some oversight, and we already have the DM hierarchy in place for this very thing.


All this is hard to do, and we can only hope to reach the goal we are looking for as DMs, I just want to keep playing, keep trying to get better, make mistakes, learn from them, and move on. I don't want to be so worried I'm going to make a terrible mistake and ruin a PC or iconic NPC, or cannoned area with one misstep of an encounter. And Id like to think I can be trusted to at least attempt a balance between changing canon and respecting it. Plus i really enjoy collaborating and working with other DMs, its one of my favorite things to do as a DM.

[Zelknolf]

So most of what you wrote there, Lokan, is what we already do. You probably want a link to the wiki to replace your grand history of the realms link.

However, this piece...

we would generally have to agree as a community, as DMs and as TA what is a priority. At certain points, maybe making cosmetic changes are more important that updating the ACR.

... plays into the broader theme of DMs not noticing or respecting the work that the people who actually provide this game do. The implications to build should give you pause; that's a burden you're about to put on others in this community. That's someone's time off that you're about to ruin-- probably more of their time off than the total amount of DM attention you've given to them over your entire time as a DM. In some fanciful future land we can imagine a time when that won't be so, but until then that's part of the cost of this medium. We can't be as flexible as PnP because we're not actually isolated groups at tables using sketched-out maps on printer paper and wordplay to make our settings.

[FoamBats4All]

Cleanest solution is just to require that DMs pre-build everything before their world-changing plot can be approved.

[SwordSaintMusashi]

Cleanest solution is just to require that DMs pre-build everything before their world-changing plot can be approved.

Or find someone to build it for them, or the like. Just have such there.

Amen.

[Swift]

Cleanest solution is just to require that DMs pre-build everything before their world-changing plot can be approved.

Which might not be possible if the players do not play along with the DMs however loosely pre-conceived idea of how and where the plot will play out.

[dergon darkhelm]

I wish all our DMs were a Ronan.

+1

[Zelknolf]

Which might not be possible if the players do not play along with the DMs however loosely pre-conceived idea of how and where the plot will play out.

"We all need to talk as a group about how someone else is going to clean up my mess" isn't a solution.

[Lokan]

So most of what you wrote there, Lokan, is what we already do. You probably want a link to the wiki to replace your grand history of the realms link.

Oh great, thank you! Im glad we have that. I mentioned the grand history in an attempt to answer how we might go about putting the word out to a player base about all the crazy stories and divergences we have in ALFA from or adding to original Canon

However, this piece...

we would generally have to agree as a community, as DMs and as TA what is a priority. At certain points, maybe making cosmetic changes are more important that updating the ACR.

... plays into the broader theme of DMs not noticing or respecting the work that the people who actually provide this game do. The implications to build should give you pause; that's a burden you're about to put on others in this community. That's someone's time off that you're about to ruin-- probably more of their time off than the total amount of DM attention you've given to them over your entire time as a DM. In some fanciful future land we can imagine a time when that won't be so, but until then that's part of the cost of this medium. We can't be as flexible as PnP because we're not actually isolated groups at tables using sketched-out maps on printer paper and wordplay to make our settings.

Cleanest solution is just to require that DMs pre-build everything before their world-changing plot can be approved.

So, really, as a player, the only hope you might have of seeing your character matter (a thing that seems to be the core difference between this PW, using this game engine, within this community) would be to build everything related to your character yourself.

I sound sarcastic there (and I am, a bit) though I dont mean it to be spiteful. I get it, I know we've had this discussion before..."stop placing the burden of your grand schemes on us tech wizards" Also, in all of my previous posts, I recognize that I sound ungrateful about the wonderful work that is actually in this game. I mean, this game is very old and its really an wondrous thing that we can even play it so many years after the game makers gave up on it, on top of that you all keep adding functionality to it that is awesome. I hope that I have not ever one on one, or anytime publicly expressed myself in any way as to make it seem I am ungrateful not only to the Zelk and Foam, but to all those who put in effort for me to be able to go away and come back, and this hobby to still be here for me to pick up.

With that said, I would like to be able to make the changes necessary to place more persistence in the game world in more concrete visual game terms. Im willing to bick up the toolset, and I have done so. Im not that good at it, its not anything related to what I do for a living AT ALL. Ill take as much time as my hobby allows to try. It will take away from actual game play and DM time for players. The implications do give me pause. They give me so much pause that I was trying to say that I need to check, double check and triple check almost every encounter I conceive. it fairly stifling at times.

That's someone's time off that you're about to ruin-- probably more of their time off than the total amount of DM attention you've given to them over your entire time as a DM.

This statement is somewhat ironic because the last time I tried to put forth this idea, I had been spending some time in the toolset learning it, trying to up with areas, items and NPCs which I would like to try to use for a certain very high level PC on BG. As I put it out for consideration, uncertainty from the other DMs had me water it down. Uncertainty about the possible ramifications, both RP And Technical, and if the player would even except the RP. Opinions, which I absolutely agreed with at the time and completely respected, btw. But even the slightly watered down, less mega world changing event that I did have thought up didn't come to fruition because I simply ran out of time trying to figure it all out.

Which might not be possible if the players do not play along with the DMs however loosely pre-conceived idea of how and where the plot will play out.

"We all need to talk as a group about how someone else is going to clean up my mess" isn't a solution.

Well, if you consider the narrative a "mess", then I guess you can put it in those negative terms. If I as a DM want to do something, I will consider doing the work for the change and will really try to make sure I can do it before I put it forth in game to other players. Even when I attempt it, I will need help, and i know it will be there because you all have helped me very much in the past. I do hope that your roll in actually making the changes for other players aren't a burden or mess to clean up, however.

I still don't understand why we really MUST make the tech change. Even in the case of Zhents taking over BG, a simple suspension of disbelief and community agreed RP situation can handle the change from Zhent guards, to Flaming Fist guards. If this change really does become more permanent, they we have time to make the technical change later, but we didnt hold up the story for the mechanism we use to tell it. Heck, if we end up we dont want to do the work, the DM simply nudges the story in the opposite direction. Hopefully, the players find a new way to win the day and bring back the good guys...and we just go back to the Flaming Fist's triumphant return to BG. And at no time, did we actually put in any tech changes.

Bottom line is if we are saying that Tech people cant or wont be able to do some work in order to make other DMs stories come to life, and DMs have to be able to make changes on their own before trying to tell a story...then fine, Ill play the game as is, as we have it, and only expect those very small things that I can do with the toolset to find any permanence. I'm really ok with that.

I just thought people wanted something more. Also, if that is true then... really I think the best way I can help ALFA be fun is to jump in game and RP with other players as a DM, run them through some random encounters from time to time, dole out XP and items (provided they are within Standards), and rinse and repeat.

[kid]

some tech support is a must. probably the most bang for buck is to have people who know what they are doing do what they know how to do.

Simple changes aren't that hard (swapping guards) and i'm sure HDM will be willing to help if he likes a certain narrative. If he doesn't, well... then you're screwed anyways

As long as you're not building a new city, the work load isn't necessarily grand.

Also... while I know how to use the toolset and build, personally, anything I ever tried to build was pretty ugly.
So while it was fine for my own adventure (Cause looks aren't as important as the story to me, as long as everyone knew what was what), I know that it won't pass the test for ALFA wide stuff...
So unless we find a way to install talent... I got nothing.

Anyways, Lok, all you need to do is manage to sway the HDM. Unless you want something REALLY grand (In game), i'm sure he'll help with changes.

[FoamBats4All]

So, really, as a player, the only hope you might have of seeing your character matter (a thing that seems to be the core difference between this PW, using this game engine, within this community) would be to build everything related to your character yourself.

I sound sarcastic there (and I am, a bit) though I dont mean it to be spiteful. I get it, I know we've had this discussion before..."stop placing the burden of your grand schemes on us tech wizards"

Oh, there's hope, sure. But is there reality? No.

In ALFA2's history, where has this actually happened? Who built Sword's Edge (I honestly don't know, not rhetorical)?

Your faction will get their base when you find a builder to make it, not before.

Your character will get a mansion when you find a builder to make it.

Sylvaine will get an actual interior to be Baroness of when Veilan finds a builder to make it.

Ruqel would be a couple of tents if Zelknolf didn't personally build (almost) everything you see there.

[Zelknolf]

I would probably qualify the "stop burdening the builders" -- the problem isn't asking for help. The problem is assuming that you can just require it from people. But some DMs have already asked people to take on enormous build projects (like in a certain thinly-veiled circumstance where a certain currently-complaining DM asked the current TA to build all of Eveningstar for his events that never happened) and promptly thrown out all of the build. Some DMs have been an enormous burden on the people who keep this community together and then pointedly ignored them in game.

Most people get the benefit of the doubt at first, of course; we're a volunteer community, and so we have the default ways of exchanging human effort (a gift economy), and we all have those primal "We're really best adapted to be naked grass apes" instincts that says it's appropriate to give to someone when at a zero state. But if they don't give back, they give back substantially less, or they obviously abuse or waste the gifts, they stop getting more. Trying to force something else because it's "for the best" is a good way to just lose those builders entirely.