Is ALFA a Persistent World? I know it was meant to be, but is it functioning that way truly now? Did it ever really? For me this is somewhat rhetorical: the answer is no. That’s not an indictment, but an honest appraisal. It was a laudable goal, to be sure, and no disrespect is meant in bringing the subject up. But an examination of what is good and what is problematic in ALFA has brought me to focus on this aspect, so please let me illustrate why.
ALFA, as presently built, requires the grouping of people. It is lethal, and the only way to survive and advance is to be in groups, and of course to fully take advantage of the DM/Player relationship groups are necessary as well. Players use out-of-character communication to “happen to show up in the same place at the same time”, bend over backwards to make different races, alignments, and levels somehow want to be together despite obvious character motivations to the contrary, and make it work while holding their nose to the obvious metagaming compromise. It isn’t merely that they don’t want to play alone, it is that it is a manifest necessity of ALFA’s design.
ALFA is also vast and expansive, requiring long time consuming trips to get places. The builders sought to create the look and feel of the vastness of Faerun, and it is a beautiful product. Travel is known to be strenuous and dangerous in Faerun, so characters would make these trips few and only when necessary. However the need to be with other characters (see above) and the relative scarcity of content (see below), makes these trips become quite frequent, sometimes happening several times in a single game session, chewing up valuable game time and adding extra unnecessary risk.
ALFA is not content rich. It was assumed that players would largely be guided by DM-driven content, and the scripted static content would serve as a stop-gap and is limited. Unfortunately the reality of ALFA is that there is not a wealth of DM offerings making a great reliance upon the limited static content to keep players engaged. Most players have repeated the same content as they replace dead characters and help other PC’s stay alive. What’s more, the risk of the content is not self-evident, and players rely upon metagame information from other players who have done the content to guide them about whether it is appropriate to do, if it can be done solo, or if it should be avoided.
Any one of these observations by themselves is not a game-ending problem per se and could be overcome, but taken as a whole it calls into question the viability of sustaining it as a formula for “persistence.” Players spend a lot of time trying to get together and seeking out content, and considerably less time actually doing content, by orders of magnitude. It is a formula for frustration, and that has to be tied to the problems of attracting and retaining players.
Let’s contrast to WOW for a moment, the king-daddy of persistent worlds. I know how such comparisons grate on ALFAns, but stick with me a moment for a point or two. WOW had some of the same issues, believe it or not. The developers loved the idea of a vast open world, and the game when first launched was massively large with huge distances of beautiful landscape between content, and built quests that required you traverse the terrain over and over. The developers were proud of their creation and wanted it to be appreciated by the players by making the content force the players to enjoy it.
It was a disaster. The number one reason cited by players who stopped subscribing was how frustrated they were by the amount of time they spent walking versus the amount of actual content they got to enjoy. The developers spent years reforming the world, adding mounts, flying mounts, portals, and player teleportation to all but eliminate tedious travel. They also responded to player complaints about finding appropriate content by moving the content to flow more logically and create natural player congregations which facilitated grouping. Had they not made these changes, the player frustrations would have continued to rise, and who knows what the fate of the game might have been.
Regardless of what you think of the depth of the content, the lack of role playing, etc. of WOW, you do have to defer to them as a thriving example of a persistent world, and learn from their mistakes in meeting the needs of their community. Again, I know how WOW comparisons irritate ALFAns, so let me bring focus back to us.
If ALFA wants to continue to have the goal of “persistence”, then something needs to be done to bring players together and deliver more consistent content to them. Simply having a server running 24/7 doesn’t meet the definition of persistence. The world needs to be alive and thriving, offering an attractive product round the clock.
If ALFA is not going to be persistent (and it truly has not been), then let’s evolve into something new. Let’s take a look at what we’re doing and deliver an experience which is more consistent with the reality of where we are and where we reasonably think we can go.
A persistent problem
Moderator: ALFA Administrators
A persistent problem
Duck One
Some guy who used to do some work 'round here.
Some guy who used to do some work 'round here.
Re: A persistent problem
This is a topic that keeps on coming up-- and I make the same request every time. So I will reiterate it here.
If you don't want ALFA to be a persistent world, don't try to work some weird lever where I have to keep working on a game that I'm not invited to. There's this horrible years-long pattern where people seem to think they're entitled to the work I provide-- or to the work Foam provides-- but let's remember that the core infrastructure of ALFA is available for persistency, and we work on it because it's a game we enjoy and play. If the community doesn't want persistency, great, but please just own it. Accept that being a campaign means that the members of the campaign are responsible for finding a way to gather. You wouldn't organize a PnP group to meet in my house; try to maintain the same basic courtesy when you're behind a computer screen.
If you don't want ALFA to be a persistent world, don't try to work some weird lever where I have to keep working on a game that I'm not invited to. There's this horrible years-long pattern where people seem to think they're entitled to the work I provide-- or to the work Foam provides-- but let's remember that the core infrastructure of ALFA is available for persistency, and we work on it because it's a game we enjoy and play. If the community doesn't want persistency, great, but please just own it. Accept that being a campaign means that the members of the campaign are responsible for finding a way to gather. You wouldn't organize a PnP group to meet in my house; try to maintain the same basic courtesy when you're behind a computer screen.
Re: A persistent problem
I think you may have misunderstood me. It is not a question of what I want; it is a question of what ALFA is and can be. I always have wanted ALFA to succeed in its vision. It was a bold vision and I always held out hope it would somehow find a way to realize the vision. There is nothing wrong with persistence as a goal, and I would enjoy playing in a persistent world if that is what ALFA was. But it isn't, and I dare say it likely won't be. So the question is not what I want, but what should we do given that reality.Zelknolf wrote:This is a topic that keeps on coming up-- and I make the same request every time. So I will reiterate it here.
If you don't want ALFA to be a persistent world, don't try to work some weird lever where I have to keep working on a game that I'm not invited to. There's this horrible years-long pattern where people seem to think they're entitled to the work I provide-- or to the work Foam provides-- but let's remember that the core infrastructure of ALFA is available for persistency, and we work on it because it's a game we enjoy and play. If the community doesn't want persistency, great, but please just own it. Accept that being a campaign means that the members of the campaign are responsible for finding a way to gather. You wouldn't organize a PnP group to meet in my house; try to maintain the same basic courtesy when you're behind a computer screen.
I hope you don't mean to imply that you did all that work for purely selfish reason. I doubt that to be the case, but the tone of your response is layered with a sense of ownership and entitlement. I wouldn't view this as your house, or mine. It is our clubhouse. When I left ALFA, I turned over the module quite willingly, and worked to orderly transition everything administratively I was managing to other members of the community. I sat in the background quietly rooting that all the reasons I left were short-sighted, and somehow someone more clever than I would unlock the formula to success. Perhaps that person is you.
So I ask, again without preference to the correct answer: if ALFA is to be a persistent world, what can we do to actually make it persist? If it is not to be one, then how should we evolve?
Duck One
Some guy who used to do some work 'round here.
Some guy who used to do some work 'round here.
Re: A persistent problem
The problem isn't an orderly transition-- indeed, I've set up the nuts and bolts of ALFA such that everything needed for that transition is already done. I can get hit by a bus on my way home today and everything you need to host your own ALFA campaign world is on the internet. We couldn't put that genie back in the bottle if we wanted to.Duck One wrote:I hope you don't mean to imply that you did all that work for purely selfish reason. I doubt that to be the case, but the tone of your response is layered with a sense of ownership and entitlement. I wouldn't view this as your house, or mine. It is our clubhouse. When I left ALFA, I turned over the module quite willingly, and worked to orderly transition everything administratively I was managing to other members of the community. I sat in the background quietly rooting that all the reasons I left were short-sighted, and somehow someone more clever than I would unlock the formula to success. Perhaps that person is you.
But there's a difference between an orderly transition and the usual route of these calls; they typically go the route of assuming that I will continue to actively work on and provide a persistent environment, and the people in those environments will just stop respecting the rules of persistency; this is where the comparison to hosting a PnP event in someone else's house comes in. Where's the food coming from? Who's cleaning up after? Who's responsible if the house or the table is in bad shape?
Re: A persistent problem
Perhaps I am failing to deliver the message, so let me try another tact:
You want persistence. Understood. I say there is nothing wrong with that goal.
You say you will only work if ALFA is persistent. Fine, that is your prerogative. That is clear.
But I didn’t demand ALFA stop being persistent. I asked a question: is it really? And then I answered my own question by saying it really isn’t and hasn’t been. I say that not because it is what I want or advocate. It is a statement, not a request or demand. ALFA is not persistent.
Now to illustrate my point of why ALFA is not persistent.
Darhthmec, my level 1 rogue, sits logged off in Silverymoon. Were I to log in right now to him, I would find the server empty. He has done all the static content available to him that has no risk. With 7 hit points, the roads are not really safe for him to roam. There is nobody else to role play with. There is quite literally nothing of any value for me to do with him right now except take a silly risk that has a high probability of death. This scenario is largely true for most characters in most situations in ALFA. A huge fraction of the time the game is effectively closed to them.
Logging into a game which you really can’t “play” doesn’t count as persistence. If the world is only viable when other players are on, and other players are seldom on and/or available to you, then the world is largely closed, and not “persisting”.
That is not a reflection of what I want or advocate; it is a statement of facts without advocacy. I am just the messenger in this case, so there is no need to get defensive. I didn’t make any demands, I asked questions, so let me repeat them for you and the community to answer:
You want persistence. Understood. I say there is nothing wrong with that goal.
You say you will only work if ALFA is persistent. Fine, that is your prerogative. That is clear.
But I didn’t demand ALFA stop being persistent. I asked a question: is it really? And then I answered my own question by saying it really isn’t and hasn’t been. I say that not because it is what I want or advocate. It is a statement, not a request or demand. ALFA is not persistent.
Now to illustrate my point of why ALFA is not persistent.
Darhthmec, my level 1 rogue, sits logged off in Silverymoon. Were I to log in right now to him, I would find the server empty. He has done all the static content available to him that has no risk. With 7 hit points, the roads are not really safe for him to roam. There is nobody else to role play with. There is quite literally nothing of any value for me to do with him right now except take a silly risk that has a high probability of death. This scenario is largely true for most characters in most situations in ALFA. A huge fraction of the time the game is effectively closed to them.
Logging into a game which you really can’t “play” doesn’t count as persistence. If the world is only viable when other players are on, and other players are seldom on and/or available to you, then the world is largely closed, and not “persisting”.
That is not a reflection of what I want or advocate; it is a statement of facts without advocacy. I am just the messenger in this case, so there is no need to get defensive. I didn’t make any demands, I asked questions, so let me repeat them for you and the community to answer:
So I ask, again without preference to the correct answer: if ALFA is to be a persistent world, what can we do to actually make it persist? If it is not to be one, then how should we evolve?
Duck One
Some guy who used to do some work 'round here.
Some guy who used to do some work 'round here.
Re: A persistent problem
Duck, man I've enjoyed playing with you, and I am glad you are back in the community.
I have been been in the community for all but about 10 months of the last 4 years and have seen massive changes toward for what you are asking. At least on ALFA 10, BG server. Recently Wynna has been back on TSM and making a lot of static content for the wizarding community, which, I admit, is often the most squishy and hardest to 'adventure' with. So I offer Kudos to her on that. More can be done, I won't disagree, but someone must have time, energy, and permission to do so.
As for BG server, Ruqel did not exist when I started. Horatio delivered mail as his first job outside of farm life, struggling to not get pulled into the world of adventurers. He carried a sword for protection and hunted for food. But all the while, he was watching what was being built in character. I'm sure that some were having a bitch over what was happening, because here was a player building something 'just because she is part of the admin' or 'for her ego' but you know what I saw? New content, that she has taken a huge amount of time to build some well thought out persistant world adventures. Sure you need to be in a party to do some of them, but this is a game that is intended for groups... D&D was never a solo adventure game. Even the single player has you building a party to work with. It's because no one class can do everything. Sure some are better at solo than others, but it's still encouraging you to group or learn the lesson by dieing or nearly dieing in character.
I'm sure if you give time, there will be more of this. There was starter character content added in baldur's gate, and that is almost like a tour of the server with all the places that chain sends you. Yes, it kinda depend upon you playing the hero type to enjoy her quests, but that's what the game was built on. If you want to play evil, or someone who hates everyone else, you need to find your own way in the world. Maybe the next builder who enjoys that will do content for those people, maybe I will. I don't know, right now I'm enjoying playing my favorite character.
In all this, the only complaints that I've had about the builder's work has been that triggers can be hard to find, but I"m playing a ranger who is used to spotting things from far off, and annoyed by having to stumble over things like a bookish newbie adventurer. It can also be troublesome when an adventure gets stuck because of something unforeseen, like wildlife killing the trigger creature before you can, or before you can talk to it. There is always room for improvement in everyone's work, in this case some way to reset to the last 'saved' position or start position for these out of character issues, maybe something only a dm can see or something clever like that. But the larger point here as I have digressed, is that the work is being done.
Zelk could retire her character and start a newb and get lots of rewarding rp with those of us who are here. But she is spending her time building for everyone else to enjoy, often I'm sure while she is sitting and reading and drinking tea in character so that she can get ic feedback and know what's going on with what she is building. I for one say thank you. No one is perfect, we all have room for improvement, but I am grateful for the content Zelk is providing for those who wish to avail themselves of it.
With this in mind, Duck, ALFA is not perfect either, but it's a work in progress, that has been making progress. I thought you should know that.
I have been been in the community for all but about 10 months of the last 4 years and have seen massive changes toward for what you are asking. At least on ALFA 10, BG server. Recently Wynna has been back on TSM and making a lot of static content for the wizarding community, which, I admit, is often the most squishy and hardest to 'adventure' with. So I offer Kudos to her on that. More can be done, I won't disagree, but someone must have time, energy, and permission to do so.
As for BG server, Ruqel did not exist when I started. Horatio delivered mail as his first job outside of farm life, struggling to not get pulled into the world of adventurers. He carried a sword for protection and hunted for food. But all the while, he was watching what was being built in character. I'm sure that some were having a bitch over what was happening, because here was a player building something 'just because she is part of the admin' or 'for her ego' but you know what I saw? New content, that she has taken a huge amount of time to build some well thought out persistant world adventures. Sure you need to be in a party to do some of them, but this is a game that is intended for groups... D&D was never a solo adventure game. Even the single player has you building a party to work with. It's because no one class can do everything. Sure some are better at solo than others, but it's still encouraging you to group or learn the lesson by dieing or nearly dieing in character.
I'm sure if you give time, there will be more of this. There was starter character content added in baldur's gate, and that is almost like a tour of the server with all the places that chain sends you. Yes, it kinda depend upon you playing the hero type to enjoy her quests, but that's what the game was built on. If you want to play evil, or someone who hates everyone else, you need to find your own way in the world. Maybe the next builder who enjoys that will do content for those people, maybe I will. I don't know, right now I'm enjoying playing my favorite character.
In all this, the only complaints that I've had about the builder's work has been that triggers can be hard to find, but I"m playing a ranger who is used to spotting things from far off, and annoyed by having to stumble over things like a bookish newbie adventurer. It can also be troublesome when an adventure gets stuck because of something unforeseen, like wildlife killing the trigger creature before you can, or before you can talk to it. There is always room for improvement in everyone's work, in this case some way to reset to the last 'saved' position or start position for these out of character issues, maybe something only a dm can see or something clever like that. But the larger point here as I have digressed, is that the work is being done.
Zelk could retire her character and start a newb and get lots of rewarding rp with those of us who are here. But she is spending her time building for everyone else to enjoy, often I'm sure while she is sitting and reading and drinking tea in character so that she can get ic feedback and know what's going on with what she is building. I for one say thank you. No one is perfect, we all have room for improvement, but I am grateful for the content Zelk is providing for those who wish to avail themselves of it.
With this in mind, Duck, ALFA is not perfect either, but it's a work in progress, that has been making progress. I thought you should know that.
The real Gonz.0
"Where morality is present, laws are unnecessary. Without morality, laws are unenforceable." -Anonymous
Horatio
http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l157/ ... atio-1.jpg
"Where morality is present, laws are unnecessary. Without morality, laws are unenforceable." -Anonymous
Horatio
http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l157/ ... atio-1.jpg
Re: A persistent problem
Gonzo,gonz.0 wrote:Duck, man I've enjoyed playing with you, and I am glad you are back in the community.
I have been been in the community for all but about 10 months of the last 4 years and have seen massive changes toward for what you are asking. At least on ALFA 10, BG server. Recently Wynna has been back on TSM and making a lot of static content for the wizarding community, which, I admit, is often the most squishy and hardest to 'adventure' with. So I offer Kudos to her on that. More can be done, I won't disagree, but someone must have time, energy, and permission to do so.
As for BG server, Ruqel did not exist when I started. Horatio delivered mail as his first job outside of farm life, struggling to not get pulled into the world of adventurers. He carried a sword for protection and hunted for food. But all the while, he was watching what was being built in character. I'm sure that some were having a bitch over what was happening, because here was a player building something 'just because she is part of the admin' or 'for her ego' but you know what I saw? New content, that she has taken a huge amount of time to build some well thought out persistant world adventures. Sure you need to be in a party to do some of them, but this is a game that is intended for groups... D&D was never a solo adventure game. Even the single player has you building a party to work with. It's because no one class can do everything. Sure some are better at solo than others, but it's still encouraging you to group or learn the lesson by dieing or nearly dieing in character.
I'm sure if you give time, there will be more of this. There was starter character content added in baldur's gate, and that is almost like a tour of the server with all the places that chain sends you. Yes, it kinda depend upon you playing the hero type to enjoy her quests, but that's what the game was built on. If you want to play evil, or someone who hates everyone else, you need to find your own way in the world. Maybe the next builder who enjoys that will do content for those people, maybe I will. I don't know, right now I'm enjoying playing my favorite character.
In all this, the only complaints that I've had about the builder's work has been that triggers can be hard to find, but I"m playing a ranger who is used to spotting things from far off, and annoyed by having to stumble over things like a bookish newbie adventurer. It can also be troublesome when an adventure gets stuck because of something unforeseen, like wildlife killing the trigger creature before you can, or before you can talk to it. There is always room for improvement in everyone's work, in this case some way to reset to the last 'saved' position or start position for these out of character issues, maybe something only a dm can see or something clever like that. But the larger point here as I have digressed, is that the work is being done.
Zelk could retire her character and start a newb and get lots of rewarding rp with those of us who are here. But she is spending her time building for everyone else to enjoy, often I'm sure while she is sitting and reading and drinking tea in character so that she can get ic feedback and know what's going on with what she is building. I for one say thank you. No one is perfect, we all have room for improvement, but I am grateful for the content Zelk is providing for those who wish to avail themselves of it.
With this in mind, Duck, ALFA is not perfect either, but it's a work in progress, that has been making progress. I thought you should know that.
Thanks for the thoughts. I have enjoyed playing too. I don't care of a "player" builds, and Zelk deserves a ton of credit for putting effort into the project. I mean that in all sincerity, because I've been there.
My issue is that the policies and procedures of ALFA still reflect a mentality of a "PW Project" with all the liabilities of that, but aren't really enjoying the benefits of persistence because in reality it hasn't (and likely won't be) achieved. I've had, and perhaps in a shadow of my mind still have, high hopes for ALFA, and so I don't say these things out of spite. If I am wrong, then prove me wrong, and I will celebrate that perhaps things are not as I suspect.
I have just gone through the new player experience, coming into it with renewed optimism and hope. Yes, I am not entirely new, but I was never a player, always a DM, and it has been so long ago that truly my perspective is as a new player with high hopes. Those hopes were largely dashed. ALFA is a crap ton of frustration for a new eager player, and not a lot of sympathy, with a "meh, that's ALFA, deal with it" attitude.
It occurred to me that those here probably have been heavily entrenched in their positions and so far down in the weeds that perhaps they really can't see all this, so I took it upon myself to offer my somewhat new perspective. I can't say that I have been encouraged by the response.
I will try to cling to some amount of optimism. Thanks for your thoughts.
Duck One
Some guy who used to do some work 'round here.
Some guy who used to do some work 'round here.
Re: A persistent problem
Not saying I agree, but as a devil's advocate, lets say you are 100% correct. What would you have us do other than shut down servers? I've seen that Idea, and I don't think that is one anyone is willing to deal with.
The real Gonz.0
"Where morality is present, laws are unnecessary. Without morality, laws are unenforceable." -Anonymous
Horatio
http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l157/ ... atio-1.jpg
"Where morality is present, laws are unnecessary. Without morality, laws are unenforceable." -Anonymous
Horatio
http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l157/ ... atio-1.jpg
Re: A persistent problem
I don't really understand your wants, Duck.
The only thing I can think of from what you said is that it would be nice if we had auto travel (By means of Caravans/ships/whatever) to more places to help players congregate.
Which is fine and nice and might be helpful. But alright, what else?
Now while I don't mind the comparison to WOW, it doesn't irritate me, but I do have to say I don't want to play WOW, if I did, I would have. So I don't understand what you want to achieve by comparing ALFA to it.
I mean, yes, it's more popular but... we're not WOW and we don't want to be WOW, so...
I think ALFA is great. Even the people that annoy me are fun to RP with (Ith, how I loath you!
) and are usually good gaming partners.
I think the main issue as I see it (and as I feel from my own experience) is that we are getting older and have less time to spend on our hobby. I can't find something inherentaly wrong with the way ALFA is, and something that would make it better in a blink of an eye.
Maybe i'm missing something but I just can't seem to understand what it is ALFA needs to be/become/have in order to address your needs (And maybe the needs of players in general).
The only thing I can think of from what you said is that it would be nice if we had auto travel (By means of Caravans/ships/whatever) to more places to help players congregate.
Which is fine and nice and might be helpful. But alright, what else?
Now while I don't mind the comparison to WOW, it doesn't irritate me, but I do have to say I don't want to play WOW, if I did, I would have. So I don't understand what you want to achieve by comparing ALFA to it.
I mean, yes, it's more popular but... we're not WOW and we don't want to be WOW, so...
I think ALFA is great. Even the people that annoy me are fun to RP with (Ith, how I loath you!
) and are usually good gaming partners.I think the main issue as I see it (and as I feel from my own experience) is that we are getting older and have less time to spend on our hobby. I can't find something inherentaly wrong with the way ALFA is, and something that would make it better in a blink of an eye.
Maybe i'm missing something but I just can't seem to understand what it is ALFA needs to be/become/have in order to address your needs (And maybe the needs of players in general).
Last edited by kid on Fri Jul 24, 2015 10:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
<paazin>: internet relationships are really a great idea
-
oldgrayrogue
- Retired
- Posts: 3284
- Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2008 7:09 am
- Location: New York
- Contact:
Re: A persistent problem
First, Zelk, please don't get hit by a bus.
To echo Gonz, Zelk busts her ass so we have a really cool sandbox to play in, PW style, campaign style, solo and everything in between, And its not just Ruqel, or new BG quests, her hands are in everything -- the ACR, unbelievable DM tools, and tons of other stuff I will never even begin to be able to comprehend. Whenever I make suggestions about new content or changes, I hesitate before I hit "submit" because I know if there is something in there that she thinks might be a good idea she will make it happen and that means more work for her. So thanks Zelk, and as for any and all of my suggestions they are never ever made with any expectation that they be implemented. Just food for thought if you or anyone else might want to do it.
Second, Kid, ALFA needs more players actively online. We have known that for a while now. I think Zelk would agree. Its hard to get that given our age and the age of the game but that is the issue. Absent that I think what Duck is saying is what changes can we reasonably make to the platform given that reality to improve player density so we can make the most out of the time and player base we have?
In that spirit, I clip the following from Duck's other thread to offer my response to Gonzo's question:
To echo Gonz, Zelk busts her ass so we have a really cool sandbox to play in, PW style, campaign style, solo and everything in between, And its not just Ruqel, or new BG quests, her hands are in everything -- the ACR, unbelievable DM tools, and tons of other stuff I will never even begin to be able to comprehend. Whenever I make suggestions about new content or changes, I hesitate before I hit "submit" because I know if there is something in there that she thinks might be a good idea she will make it happen and that means more work for her. So thanks Zelk, and as for any and all of my suggestions they are never ever made with any expectation that they be implemented. Just food for thought if you or anyone else might want to do it.
Second, Kid, ALFA needs more players actively online. We have known that for a while now. I think Zelk would agree. Its hard to get that given our age and the age of the game but that is the issue. Absent that I think what Duck is saying is what changes can we reasonably make to the platform given that reality to improve player density so we can make the most out of the time and player base we have?
In that spirit, I clip the following from Duck's other thread to offer my response to Gonzo's question:
I want to note, I much prefer a PW style of play to a "campaign only" style. Great campaigns are lots of fun but true RP immersion for me only comes from playing PW style.oldgrayrogue wrote: So to recap, some (possibly) more palatable changes that could address our density problem:
1. Designate one server the "Hub" server everyone logs onto. Just call it "ALFA" because you can seamlessly travel to all other servers from there. It will up our numbers on the pseudo gamespy board thing and maybe attract more players.
2. Shrink some of the long, boring travel areas on existing servers to make connections between players easier. Add hostile spawns to most areas so players are "forced" to congregate in "safe" hub areas and group up to travel. Add more content to hub areas so players are not constrained to tavern RP.
3. Alternatively, allow for instantaneous portalling between areas via canon magical portals. Maybe quests could even be written to "unlock" the ability to use said portals in each area. I have seen this very thing on other servers.
4. Eliminate all time restrictions on travel between servers or moving PCs between servers.
5. (Optional) Relax the DM where you play rule. With HDM consent allow a DM to run "events" on servers where they play or on the "hub" server with prior notice. As long as everyone involved consents what's the harm?
Any of the servers could serve as the Hub. BG probably makes the most sense, but the little used WHL server might actually be the best fit. Just add a portal to every server on the main travel map and make Soubar and Boerskayer bridge a bit more interesting with more stuff to do. hey there's a thought! How about making WHL -- a Faerunian "hub" into a "hub" server where everyone can mix and play and DM and travel from. Might not be ideal as a "player hub" but could work as a "server hub."
Re: A persistent problem
Well, I wouldn't mind any of those, though as someone who likes to both DM and play, I do enjoy a certain separation (which we currently have) so removing that would hinder my fun.
The only way I could tolerate it is if we just give everyone DM privileges and the basic right to run a game, just as much as each member has the right to play a character.
But that's just me I guess.
Regardless, I think that the only way to accomplish those ideas would be to run for admin positions and then do them.
Otherwise, as long as our TA/LA/DMA/PA whoever is needed for all those (I'm assuming that ultimately most fall on the TA to actually do) they just won't happen.
Not trying to dishearten anyone, that's just the way it looks to me.
The only way I could tolerate it is if we just give everyone DM privileges and the basic right to run a game, just as much as each member has the right to play a character.
But that's just me I guess.
Regardless, I think that the only way to accomplish those ideas would be to run for admin positions and then do them.
Otherwise, as long as our TA/LA/DMA/PA whoever is needed for all those (I'm assuming that ultimately most fall on the TA to actually do) they just won't happen.
Not trying to dishearten anyone, that's just the way it looks to me.
<paazin>: internet relationships are really a great idea
-
Ithildur
- Dungeon Master
- Posts: 3548
- Joined: Wed Oct 06, 2004 7:46 am
- Location: Best pizza town in the universe
- Contact:
Re: A persistent problem
I sort of hear what you're saying/where you're coming from Duck, but... there seems to be an underlying assumption in your posts that a 'persistent' place looks like an MMO in the sense there are plenty of things to do/activity anytime someone feels the urge to log in. If that's the definition, then ALFA definitely can be shored up in terms of persistency.
However, I don't think all of us view persistency in those terms. A working definition of persistency for me means things like if you logged off dead, you log back in dead. If you killed an NPC clearly named John Snowe, he won't pop up again the next time someone logs in. i.e. the world and the overarching story/narrative of that world is consistent, things have consequences that aren't overturned by a server reboot, dead things stay dead, there are repercussions for one's actions, NPCs have lives and feelings and goals and do things when PCs aren't around/logged in, etc. and our SYSTEMS AND RULESET support this idea of persistency quite well (a few notable exceptions like level drain/disease/poison)
In that sense ALFA does have persistency, regardless of whether 30 players logged in today and 5 dm's ran a half dozen plots and people engaged with 31 flavors of perfectly crafted static quests, or 2 players logged in and didn't do much beyond deliver mail. In fact, we are far more persistent than most other PWs and MMOs where you can simply relog and regain all your spells abilities instantly and be cured of all ills, respawn from death for the 50th time by hitting a button, or where there's little rhyme or reason to combat beyond farming the same mobs repeatedly for xp/loot (actually we're rather lenient in that we do allow some lattitude MMO style glossed over/handwaved, i.e. the same boss mob for static X gets killed for the 100th time, it must've been his brother/cousin/lieutenant next in line!). That's the definition I've viewed as our primary objective, narrative consistency/permanence/consequences, and what matters the most to me. It's why I vehemently hate retcons and to a lesser extent dislike comic book time.
Would it be nice if we did have more 'persistency' in the first sense, i.e. lots of activity round the clock like an MMO or BGTSCC? Probably, but that to me isn't about persistency, at least the kind that matters more to me. Saying that we don't have persistency loses a good deal of traction/credibility for me. I'd also probably be annoyed hearing such notions if I were someone who spent vast amounts of time/energy coding up systems that are modded from the vanilla game precisely for the purpose of supporting persistency.
TL;DR version: perhaps just semantics but it's a poor/misleading choice of words to describe the problem as one of persistency. Sometimes mislabeling leads to problems/confusion/rage.
However, I don't think all of us view persistency in those terms. A working definition of persistency for me means things like if you logged off dead, you log back in dead. If you killed an NPC clearly named John Snowe, he won't pop up again the next time someone logs in. i.e. the world and the overarching story/narrative of that world is consistent, things have consequences that aren't overturned by a server reboot, dead things stay dead, there are repercussions for one's actions, NPCs have lives and feelings and goals and do things when PCs aren't around/logged in, etc. and our SYSTEMS AND RULESET support this idea of persistency quite well (a few notable exceptions like level drain/disease/poison)
In that sense ALFA does have persistency, regardless of whether 30 players logged in today and 5 dm's ran a half dozen plots and people engaged with 31 flavors of perfectly crafted static quests, or 2 players logged in and didn't do much beyond deliver mail. In fact, we are far more persistent than most other PWs and MMOs where you can simply relog and regain all your spells abilities instantly and be cured of all ills, respawn from death for the 50th time by hitting a button, or where there's little rhyme or reason to combat beyond farming the same mobs repeatedly for xp/loot (actually we're rather lenient in that we do allow some lattitude MMO style glossed over/handwaved, i.e. the same boss mob for static X gets killed for the 100th time, it must've been his brother/cousin/lieutenant next in line!). That's the definition I've viewed as our primary objective, narrative consistency/permanence/consequences, and what matters the most to me. It's why I vehemently hate retcons and to a lesser extent dislike comic book time.
Would it be nice if we did have more 'persistency' in the first sense, i.e. lots of activity round the clock like an MMO or BGTSCC? Probably, but that to me isn't about persistency, at least the kind that matters more to me. Saying that we don't have persistency loses a good deal of traction/credibility for me. I'd also probably be annoyed hearing such notions if I were someone who spent vast amounts of time/energy coding up systems that are modded from the vanilla game precisely for the purpose of supporting persistency.
TL;DR version: perhaps just semantics but it's a poor/misleading choice of words to describe the problem as one of persistency. Sometimes mislabeling leads to problems/confusion/rage.
Formerly: Aglaril Shaelara, Faerun's unlikeliest Bladesinger
Current main: Ky - something
It’s not the critic who counts...The credit belongs to the man who actually is in the arena, who strives violently, who errs and comes up short again and again...who if he wins, knows the triumph of high achievement, but who if he fails, fails while daring greatly.-T. Roosevelt
Current main: Ky - something
It’s not the critic who counts...The credit belongs to the man who actually is in the arena, who strives violently, who errs and comes up short again and again...who if he wins, knows the triumph of high achievement, but who if he fails, fails while daring greatly.-T. Roosevelt
Re: A persistent problem
As Ithildur just said, we aren't an MMO style world like BGTOTSCand never will be. If we go in that direction you might as well hand a sign on ALFA that says 'casualified'. ALFA works best with player groups and a DM behind them, with a persistant story, or good dropped in little adventures for people to find in the servers. We are only a social server to those who insist on players being logged in 24/7 (these sort of players tend to go to BGTOTSC, find the casualness and ridiculous drama to be off putting, then come back here sobered to actually work at including themselves, rather than being spoon fed). We are harsh by necessity by the nature of our world. If you die, you don't come back. Deal with it or leave. We are a community, but there's only so much hand holding we can do before you have to make it clear that we are a permadeath world.Duck One wrote:My issue is that the policies and procedures of ALFA still reflect a mentality of a "PW Project" with all the liabilities of that, but aren't really enjoying the benefits of persistence because in reality it hasn't (and likely won't be) achieved. I've had, and perhaps in a shadow of my mind still have, high hopes for ALFA, and so I don't say these things out of spite. If I am wrong, then prove me wrong, and I will celebrate that perhaps things are not as I suspect.
I have just gone through the new player experience, coming into it with renewed optimism and hope. Yes, I am not entirely new, but I was never a player, always a DM, and it has been so long ago that truly my perspective is as a new player with high hopes. Those hopes were largely dashed. ALFA is a crap ton of frustration for a new eager player, and not a lot of sympathy, with a "meh, that's ALFA, deal with it" attitude.
It occurred to me that those here probably have been heavily entrenched in their positions and so far down in the weeds that perhaps they really can't see all this, so I took it upon myself to offer my somewhat new perspective. I can't say that I have been encouraged by the response.
I will try to cling to some amount of optimism. Thanks for your thoughts.
First Character: Zyrus Meynolt, the serene Water Genasi berserker. "I am the embodiment of the oceans; serene until you summon the storm." Zyrus: http://tinyurl.com/9emdbnd
Second Character: Damien Collins, the atypical druid. "What? Being a stick in the mud is boring. No pun intended grins"
Western Heartlands HDM: On break. PM for emergencies
Second Character: Damien Collins, the atypical druid. "What? Being a stick in the mud is boring. No pun intended grins"
Western Heartlands HDM: On break. PM for emergencies
-
FoamBats4All
- Githyanki
- Posts: 1289
- Joined: Sat Feb 04, 2012 6:00 pm
Re: A persistent problem
It almost sounds like your problem is more the lack of players online than the persistence of the world itself. In a game where we literally have player-created kingdoms, I don't think there's an argument against persistence. Suggestions to improve it, sure, but ALFA is definitely a PW.
Reduced travel time has been addressed many times, and as Zelknolf said in another thread, it does not help. Maybe it did on WoW. Cool. ALFA is not WoW and never will be. It's a different type of world. We don't have flying space ships. Not everyone can teleport. What we offer is a setting, a persistent world. You can go into it. You can work with it. You can do whatever you want. My characters have burned down buildings, while others have raised kingdoms. You can see the smoking remains of my changes to this persistent world in Sharp Teeth, while others have beautiful and content-filled towns growing up.
Can you provide a list of things you actually want, rather than listing labels? ALFA fits the definition of a PW as far as I'm concerned, though it sounds like you have a vastly different definition. Certainly, WoW would never, ever count as a PW in my book. WoW has to appeal to as many people as they can, because it needs to pay its bills and employees. We fill a very specific niche: a hardcore, permadeath setting. In WoW you leave town and fight mook mobs, then slightly less mooky mobs, and so on and so on in a game-y world. In ALFA you leave town and if your first destination is Cloak Wood, you die horribly, alone and sad. Because in our fantasy setting we're not trying to tailor a game for you. We're trying to tailor a world for you, based on the popular D&D setting of Forgotten Realms.
I think we'd benefit far more by people contributing (in terms of time/DMing/building) or advertising than we would by trying to emulate something we are not and never will be.
We'll never be an exclusive group where DMs have total control, because we're a persistent world. We need at least some sort of cohesive setting. How would we be persistent if Xan dropped a moon on MS but people on BG didn't notice?
We'll never be a game that appeals to all, like WoW, because we're a persistent world. We do not tailor for the player, we instead adjust for the character.
If WoW is our role model then we're really not aiming to be a game that I want to play or contribute to. If I wanted to play WoW, I would play WoW. It does a better job of being WoW than we ever could.
You play ALFA by making interesting stories, and playing a sort of multi-player, multi-DM D&D with a constant and consistent setting. You play WoW by going out and killing shit to get levels and riches so you can kill more shit to get levels and riches. They are not the same game. (Not to say that ALFA doesn't have its fair share of killing shit, that's just not the point of ALFA.)
Another way to look at it: You win WoW by hitting max level as soon as possible, amounting riches, and going on raids. If you die, who cares, you laugh and go raid a different dungeon. You win ALFA by creating interesting stories with your character until you get yourself killed. You win by having your name engraved on a rock outside Rivermoot. You win by building Ruqel. You win by establishing and running Sword's Edge. You win by achieving your character's goals, not your player goals.
Reduced travel time has been addressed many times, and as Zelknolf said in another thread, it does not help. Maybe it did on WoW. Cool. ALFA is not WoW and never will be. It's a different type of world. We don't have flying space ships. Not everyone can teleport. What we offer is a setting, a persistent world. You can go into it. You can work with it. You can do whatever you want. My characters have burned down buildings, while others have raised kingdoms. You can see the smoking remains of my changes to this persistent world in Sharp Teeth, while others have beautiful and content-filled towns growing up.
Can you provide a list of things you actually want, rather than listing labels? ALFA fits the definition of a PW as far as I'm concerned, though it sounds like you have a vastly different definition. Certainly, WoW would never, ever count as a PW in my book. WoW has to appeal to as many people as they can, because it needs to pay its bills and employees. We fill a very specific niche: a hardcore, permadeath setting. In WoW you leave town and fight mook mobs, then slightly less mooky mobs, and so on and so on in a game-y world. In ALFA you leave town and if your first destination is Cloak Wood, you die horribly, alone and sad. Because in our fantasy setting we're not trying to tailor a game for you. We're trying to tailor a world for you, based on the popular D&D setting of Forgotten Realms.
I think we'd benefit far more by people contributing (in terms of time/DMing/building) or advertising than we would by trying to emulate something we are not and never will be.
We'll never be an exclusive group where DMs have total control, because we're a persistent world. We need at least some sort of cohesive setting. How would we be persistent if Xan dropped a moon on MS but people on BG didn't notice?
We'll never be a game that appeals to all, like WoW, because we're a persistent world. We do not tailor for the player, we instead adjust for the character.
If WoW is our role model then we're really not aiming to be a game that I want to play or contribute to. If I wanted to play WoW, I would play WoW. It does a better job of being WoW than we ever could.
You play ALFA by making interesting stories, and playing a sort of multi-player, multi-DM D&D with a constant and consistent setting. You play WoW by going out and killing shit to get levels and riches so you can kill more shit to get levels and riches. They are not the same game. (Not to say that ALFA doesn't have its fair share of killing shit, that's just not the point of ALFA.)
Another way to look at it: You win WoW by hitting max level as soon as possible, amounting riches, and going on raids. If you die, who cares, you laugh and go raid a different dungeon. You win ALFA by creating interesting stories with your character until you get yourself killed. You win by having your name engraved on a rock outside Rivermoot. You win by building Ruqel. You win by establishing and running Sword's Edge. You win by achieving your character's goals, not your player goals.
Re: A persistent problem
Sewer rabbit.
Mugsy the delinquent hin mugger.
Those are persistent problems.
Mugsy the delinquent hin mugger.
Those are persistent problems.
12.August.2015: Never forget.