Come together

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Arianna
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Re: Come together

Post by Arianna »

Duck One wrote:
  • • Each server will take turns being the featured server of the month.
    • While offline for a period of 3 months, the HDM and his builders work together to build and plan for their month long event. They dream up a plot which will have something for lower and higher level characters which should take about a month to unfold and conclude.
    • As their time to come online comes closer, they make announcements about the event, giving PC’s an in-character reason to be drawn to move to that part of Faerun.
    • For a few days there is an overlap period where two servers are up to let players travel.
    • Some players convert to DM’s and vice-versa, but for a period of 30 days, the entire community games on that one server, making the server much fuller and offering a broader range of times, levels, and opportunities for all.
    • The event progresses throughout the month, perhaps changing as the players shape the events.
    • Towards the end of the month, a culmination events brings the plot to a conclusion.
    • After the players leave for the next server, the server is taken offline. The DM’s consider lasting effects from the event and incorporate them into the module. The planning for the next event begins anew.

For the most part each server has 2-3 DMs and if its lucky one builder . . . that builder may or may not be a DM . . . none of those 2-3 DMs work as GROUP they each have their own ideas on what short of adventures to run what level it should be for etc. If they are lucky and need stuff built for it they MAY be able to get the builder for that server to make something for them . . .or not . . . For instance I am HDM of MS and the ONLY builder for MS . . .. one of my DMs uses MS simply as a platform . . little of the adventure actually takes place in the Moonshea's , I plan to run stuff for the lvl 10+ group . . . . and the other DM has stuff off on another tangent . . . . I may have one of the Global Dms that will just do one offs . . . . Due to time slots and player slots and RL constraints for all involved . . I don't have a Team I have a collection. I am not sure that the other servers are in any better shape in that regards honestly.

Have you ever played a PnP game where there was more then ONE DM dming it ? I know I haven't nor would I have ever let a second DM run my game. Because only I know where its going and what its doing and how any given NPC will react.

You want a server wide adventure that 1 - doesn't hinge on any of the PC's {because you know they are going to change on a daily to weekly basis], 2 - includes all levels 1-20, and 3 - is somehow History making enough to cause lasting changes to the server.

Sorry I am NOT that talented ., . . . .I will admit my failings now .
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Re: Come together

Post by Zelknolf »

Duck One wrote:You have done a ton of work…good work. That is to be applauded. Sincerely I do. But put yourself in the position of someone new….someone coming in off the street…someone just playing ALFA for the first time. If there is to be growth, a revitalization, it will come from them, not you or me. Look to meeting their needs in weighing your position. That may be hard for you, or me, to easily do, but it is the correct perspective to have.
A couple assumptions in here, which I find somewhat bothersome. I would like to point out a distinction between my choices and my understanding. It's a bit insulting to say that I'm not trying to empathize with new players. I just haven't reached the same conclusion as you.

And developers are artists, and like most artists, we're never happy with our own work. I routinely consider how I would go about burning it all down and starting again, or what we'd benefit from discarding, or what level of game engine I could write myself (even started on them a few times; burnout sucks, unfortunately). Leaving old work behind is part of the gig. Often, personally destroying your own creation is part of the gig. That's not the hangup. (or, if it was the hangup, the problem would be that the overwhelming majority of my work applies to all servers, and bringing down three of them doesn't spare me the embarrassment of having my name on things I wrote in 2012)

The problem is the reality of what I can actually do. I try not to let the perfect be the enemy of the good, and so I'm here saying that this proposal won't fly. Density is good, yes; I can measure that and give you numbers to support the statement. This plan will probably cost us the people we need to make the plan successful.
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Re: Come together

Post by Rumple C »

Maybe approach this from another perspective D1. If you can't condense the servers to concentrate the people, can you instead concentrate the people through superior organization?
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kid
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Re: Come together

Post by kid »

Alright, it was a nice pitch, but...

Obviously it won't happen, cause, well, the people you want to do certain stuff don't wanna do 'em (And that's quite understandable - it's silly to say to someone "You should do this and that" when we're all doing this for fun, really).

Either way, one thing we all agree on (I think) is that player density is nice and improves the general ALFA experience.

So, do we have any other ideas?
Maybe something simple like try to organize certain days as a "BG day"... or "TSM day" etc?
Nothing that would be set in stone, but just something that helps people gravitate towards a server every other day or so?
I mean, I can play on TSM or MS, and DM BG. If there are a lot of players on either of those servers on a certain day, i'd be happy to RP with em, as DM or player - Assuming life permits - So maybe just simple organization would help?
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Re: Come together

Post by FoamBats4All »

I'll note that we haven't had an LA who has taken their advertisement duties seriously in, like, ever. This may help immensely.
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Re: Come together

Post by Brokenbone »

kid wrote:Alright, it was a nice pitch, but...

Obviously it won't happen, cause, well, the people you want to do certain stuff don't wanna do 'em (And that's quite understandable - it's silly to say to someone "You should do this and that" when we're all doing this for fun, really).

Either way, one thing we all agree on (I think) is that player density is nice and improves the general ALFA experience.

So, do we have any other ideas?
Maybe something simple like try to organize certain days as a "BG day"... or "TSM day" etc?
Nothing that would be set in stone, but just something that helps people gravitate towards a server every other day or so?
I mean, I can play on TSM or MS, and DM BG. If there are a lot of players on either of those servers on a certain day, i'd be happy to RP with em, as DM or player - Assuming life permits - So maybe just simple organization would help?
WELCOME TO TRIPLE LOOT AND XP WEEK ON (INSERT SERVER)!

People'd come.
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Re: Come together

Post by gribo »

WELCOME TO TRIPLE LOOT AND XP WEEK ON (INSERT SERVER)!
Yes, well, make it triple DM time and you got me :D
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Re: Come together

Post by Duck One »

Zelknolf wrote:
Duck One wrote:You have done a ton of work…good work. That is to be applauded. Sincerely I do. But put yourself in the position of someone new….someone coming in off the street…someone just playing ALFA for the first time. If there is to be growth, a revitalization, it will come from them, not you or me. Look to meeting their needs in weighing your position. That may be hard for you, or me, to easily do, but it is the correct perspective to have.
A couple assumptions in here, which I find somewhat bothersome. I would like to point out a distinction between my choices and my understanding. It's a bit insulting to say that I'm not trying to empathize with new players. I just haven't reached the same conclusion as you.

And developers are artists, and like most artists, we're never happy with our own work. I routinely consider how I would go about burning it all down and starting again, or what we'd benefit from discarding, or what level of game engine I could write myself (even started on them a few times; burnout sucks, unfortunately). Leaving old work behind is part of the gig. Often, personally destroying your own creation is part of the gig. That's not the hangup. (or, if it was the hangup, the problem would be that the overwhelming majority of my work applies to all servers, and bringing down three of them doesn't spare me the embarrassment of having my name on things I wrote in 2012)

The problem is the reality of what I can actually do. I try not to let the perfect be the enemy of the good, and so I'm here saying that this proposal won't fly. Density is good, yes; I can measure that and give you numbers to support the statement. This plan will probably cost us the people we need to make the plan successful.
Oh I didn't mean to imply that you don't care for new players. I have no doubt you do. I am saying someone in your position, or mine, is at a disadvantage when trying to be objective because our past experiences and vested interests present as considerable conflicts of interest to objectivity. It is hard for us to look at this project with the eyes of someone who has no proverbial skin in the game.

Forget ALFA for a moment. Let's instead talk about a hypothetical restaurant. I founded the restaurant, so I set the menu: liver and onions. It's an odd choice, but something nobody else is offering, so I figure it's a niche that will let me distinguish the restaurant. Out of a million customers, a few thousand respondents agree. I think to add a root beer floats to wash it down. The combination is odd, but still several hundred customers love it. I set about refining it...exotic animal livers, different ice cream flavors to add to the root beer. My small but loyal customer base keeps telling me that my odd menu is the best out there. But over the years, some my customers grow tired and seek variety, and my niche never really gains favor with a wider audience.

Noticing my dwindling revenue, I try the idea of changing the menu, but that it met with disaster. While I am able to attract a few new customers, I lose dozens of loyal ones, so the trade off doesn't seem worth it, and I revert back to the tried and true menu. By listening to my heavily entrenched customer base, I am fed constant narrow feedback of a very limited few of the overall world. It skews my perspective, and limits my ability to innovate. My restaurant operates in an echo chamber which cuts off feedback from external sources.

You see where I am going with this? Every decision has two costs: direct and indirect. The direct ones are like how many hours of labor is this going to take are a bit easier to quantify. The indirect costs are often nebulous, such as the opportunity cost of options not taken. The direct cost of offering a menu of liver and onions can be found by looking at the price of liver, etc. The indirect cost of offering that menu is the opportunity cost of not offering something that would attract some of those millions who don't like liver.

In ALFA, to know these opportunity costs, we don't survey those who are here in ALFA, but those who came and left, for they are the ones who can inform you about what you could have had but lost. It is easier to look at the potential risk to loyal ALFAn's who like the way things are and suppose the damage such a change might bring. It is harder to weigh that potential direct cost against the indirect cost of not offering a more dense and thriving gaming environment.

I don't claim to have the answer to such a question, but I think it prudent that we be open minded enough to consider the possibilies.
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Re: Come together

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Have you ever played a PnP game where there was more then ONE DM dming it ? I know I haven't nor would I have ever let a second DM run my game. Because only I know where its going and what its doing and how any given NPC will react.
Actually I have. We had a group that had about 9 regulars, and often the group might split up to manage separate tasks, or get separated through no intentional plan, so we had 2 DM’s. When this happened, the DM’s would step aside and confer, and then the group would break into two rooms until reunited. When together, the 2nd DM would help manage some of the administrative things: keeping track of hit points of monsters during a battle, make determinations on a PC’s inventory sheet, pull aside a late arriving player to update him on what he missed, etc. When the group got that big, it only made sense. There was one main DM, and the 2nd DM always deferred to him, or asked him questions if in doubt. It was a lot of fun.
You want a server wide adventure that 1 - doesn't hinge on any of the PC's {because you know they are going to change on a daily to weekly basis], 2 - includes all levels 1-20, and 3 - is somehow History making enough to cause lasting changes to the server.

Sorry I am NOT that talented ., . . . .I will admit my failings now .
I think you underestimate your talent. Let me paint a picture for you using your server as an example and see if it doesn’t spark your creativity. The “event” would be something that has upset the order of things, and has many cascading elements to it. Normally, the little world is in balance. Sure there are opposing factions that have conflicts, but they are largely offsetting and not disrupting civil society. In comes the “event” to stir the mud and cause all kinds of problems.

The Plot: (many parts of this would be unseen to the PC’s at first, but it would come together in pieces as they go through the event). The Dread Pirate Red, who ruled the largest pirate faction on the seas around Moonshae, has died. Her death left a massive power vacuum in her criminal organization, and various lieutenants and their loyal followers are now warring to claim her empire. What’s more, the treasure map which gave the safe route to her personal wealth stash, is missing. The resulting conflicts has forced large elements of the pirates on shore, and the order of things has been upset.

What’s really going on: The Dread Pirate Red was killed by a powerful necromancer to obtain her treasure map. One of Red’s recent hauls included a powerful artifact that the necromancer wants. However Red’s map was complicated, and the necromancer is having problems solving the riddles and defeating the traps Red put in place to protect the bounty. The lieutenants of Red know of how and why Red was killed, and are racing each other to intercept the necromancer and claim the treasure themselves, often fighting one another along the way.

The effects and what it means for the PC’s: The trail of the necromancer’s hunt has left areas of discord all over, and the PC’s are left with the task of dealing with the effects of his hunt.

Low level: one of the first places the necromancer visited was a wooded area. He set up several camps of operation as he worked to solve the clue. His camps included summoned undead to protect him from the wildlife there. The PC’s start by dealing with agitated wildlife displaced by the camps. This wildlife has been pushed into habited areas and attacking villagers and travelers going down the road. At first the PC’s try to deal with the animals to stop the attacks. The PC’s then learn of why the animals are agitated and are sent to deal with the camps themselves, killing the undead and smashing the device that is holding them there. Treasure: animal pelts, items found on skeletons & zombies, rewards from thankful villagers and travelers.

Mid level: the warring factions of the pirates have lost many ships, and refugees have come ashore to set up camps and make a living until they can again reform and return to the sea. A local elven village has found itself between two such camps of rival factions, and the daughter of the elven leader was taken. The PC’s are called in to at first deal with pirates blocking safe routes in and out of the village, and then to try to deal with the pirates themselves, having to attack two different camps in hopes of finding the taken girl. Complicating matters is the disruption of the woods near the pirate camps, which includes a large group of bugbears who are mad and attacking any human it sees. Treasure: items found on pirates, items found on bugbears, reward from the village for the safe return of the girl.

High level: the necromancer is close to finding his prize, but not there yet. A druid has put out word that he is hiring powerful adventurers to help him solve a problem. An ancient shrine, a sacred site once home to Larue, has been disturbed by dark magic. The druid is offering a powerful magic item as a reward to a group of souls who will purge this shrine of the fell magic which has corrupted it.

Turns out that Red hid the key (a powerful magical key) somewhere in the crypts beneath the shrine. The crypts once contained the honored dead of Larue’s loyal worshipers, but now they have been animated and turned into powerful undead by the necromancer to protect him while he searches. The PC’s who take up the druid’s quest will have to face two lieutenants separately along the way, then finally the necromancer and his powerful minions. If they seek the key themselves, they’ll have to deal with the traps and spirits in the crypts. Note the remote area has many powerful creatures and the presence of powerful dark magic will agitate normally reserved creatures living near the shrine. Treasure: items on the lieutenants, items on the animated dead, items on the necromancer, reward from the druid (if he doesn’t have to do the dirty work himself).

End game: The lower PC’s (and some villagers if needed), are able to clear the undead that were bothering the wildlife. The animals retreat back into their home, and order is restored. The mid level PC’s (and some elves if needed) are able to defeat the pirates, driving them away, and restoring order to the woods allowing the bugbears to calm down. The high level PC’s (along with the Druid if needed) are able to cleanse the shrine of the necromancer (either driving him off or killing him).

Epilogue: A third lieutenant, Red’s most trusted, already knew the location of the key, and removed it before the necromancer could get there. He used the key to claim the loot, and bought the loyalty of the rest of the pirates and replaced the lost ships. A new Dread Pirate is born, and order is returned.

So there you have it, a plot for all levels, with different groups managing different elements of the plot. Took me about 30 minutes to come up with it during my morning commute, and about an hour to write it up for you. You can complicate or simplify portions to meet the needs of the players. The idea is simple: take your orderly world and drop something into it which disrupts the order, and then imagine the cascading ripples of that disruption to dream up opportunities for the PC’s to solve. The event doesn’t have to have any permanent effect; that is up to you.

You can script pieces of it, chain it together, and make it a permanent feature of the server when you’re done, or do it all DM run by declaring different nights oriented for different levels. I envisioned doing it in episodes one per week, so about 4 different plots to get to conclusion. You could maybe have a banquet at the end where bards share the lore of the event and PC’s get to share their personal tales with one another. If you want to put in permanent effects, little markers on the server, that’d be fun. A marker where a PC fell, a scripted lore dialogue from an NPC or two, perhaps scarring of a building. It can be as simple or involved as you like.
Last edited by Duck One on Thu Jul 23, 2015 5:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Come together

Post by Brokenbone »

gribo wrote:
WELCOME TO TRIPLE LOOT AND XP WEEK ON (INSERT SERVER)!
Yes, well, make it triple DM time and you got me :D
Long advance notice of a DM running an event (with or without more DMs) has probably generated our highest density days, right? Greengrass or this Midsummer thing recently being "open invite", XP and prizes... people come. Well announced DM events of other sorts can catch ten people as well, though follow ons sometimes go well and sometimes fall apart.
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Re: Come together

Post by Zelknolf »

I don't claim to have the answer to such a question, but I think it prudent that we be open minded enough to consider the possibilies.
I am curious as to what is meant by consideration.

The problem that I point to with this plan is a concrete thing which I wouldn't be able to suggest without understanding of the proposed concept and at least some experience monitoring the health of our game. I haven't gotten any direct response about that problem (I guess the "people hate change" comment is a sort of response, but that sounds more like saying that I'm right to be worried), and so my view of things hasn't changed.

And so I'm still asking how we're going to keep contributors happy and engaged enough to make the live time of each server worth having.



More posts came while I was writing, but I'd probably point to BB's and your plot description of examples of things that would condense players without needing any outages, things that we can do with just the support of the hosting server, and things we can demonstrate that we can do without a measurable cost to our contributor population.
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Re: Come together

Post by Arianna »

Duck One wrote:

You can script pieces of it, chain it together, and make it a permanent feature of the server when you’re done, or do it all DM run by declaring different nights oriented for different levels. I envisioned doing it in episodes one per week, so about 4 different plots to get to conclusion. You could maybe have a banquet at the end where bards share the lore of the event and PC’s get to share their personal tales with one another. If you want to put in permanent effects, little markers on the server, that’d be fun. A marker where a PC fell, a scripted lore dialogue from an NPC or two, perhaps scarring of a building. It can be as simple or involved as you like.
_


Its a lovely vision certainly, it requires that , you have enough players and DMs that can get together at the same times often enough. I doubt that 4 , 4 hour sessions would be able to push along a the tale that you laid out even 8 sessions would be hard pressed. I have seen PCs take weeks to just make their plans and do all of their pre scouting to assault something. Usually because players B & C won't move forward without player A who can only be on maybe once a week and finding a day when DM +A+B+C all have time together is a nightmare . . .. then you add to the mix the random players who pops in and has no clue whats going on and you spend the next hour bringing them up to speed and the encounters you had set up for A+B+C are no longer viable because they would fry players D+E+F you spend another hour reworking stuff . Maybe others can do it faster or push it better. I know my limitations

I am willing to bend reality to a certain extent but I am not going to bump level 1 PCs so they can play with lvl 15s nor am I going to simply require all PCs to suspend their IC ness to accommodate some PC they have never met IC and expect them to work together as if they had been doing so for ages.


Honestly I don't have the OCC time in my RL where I hold down a job, work my 20 acre farm and try to build on MS to DM with any intensity more then once a week and not having a outlet to go Play would burn me out VERY quickly. 20 years ago I could probably manage it as I edge closer to 60 not so much
Last edited by Arianna on Thu Jul 23, 2015 6:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Come together

Post by Duck One »

Zelknolf wrote:
I don't claim to have the answer to such a question, but I think it prudent that we be open minded enough to consider the possibilies.
I am curious as to what is meant by consideration.

The problem that I point to with this plan is a concrete thing which I wouldn't be able to suggest without understanding of the proposed concept and at least some experience monitoring the health of our game. I haven't gotten any direct response about that problem (I guess the "people hate change" comment is a sort of response, but that sounds more like saying that I'm right to be worried), and so my view of things hasn't changed.

And so I'm still asking how we're going to keep contributors happy and engaged enough to make the live time of each server worth having.



More posts came while I was writing, but I'd probably point to BB's and your plot description of examples of things that would condense players without needing any outages, things that we can do with just the support of the hosting server, and things we can demonstrate that we can do without a measurable cost to our contributor population.
So let me try it from another angle: what is the difference between having 25% of the players 100% of the time, or 100% of the players 25% of the time? You seem to be caught up on the fact that the builders and DM's will lose interest if the players are occupied on another server, but isn't that happening now? As a builder, it would be easier for me to plan and test without interruptions, and having a goal in mind (be ready for my turn in the rotation) would keep me excited and motivated. If knowing that 100% of the community is on its way to your server soon is not motivation enough, I am not sure what would be. If the prospect of a more engaged and thriving player base isn't attractive, I am not sure what else would work.
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Re: Come together

Post by Duck One »

Arianna wrote:
Duck One wrote:

You can script pieces of it, chain it together, and make it a permanent feature of the server when you’re done, or do it all DM run by declaring different nights oriented for different levels. I envisioned doing it in episodes one per week, so about 4 different plots to get to conclusion. You could maybe have a banquet at the end where bards share the lore of the event and PC’s get to share their personal tales with one another. If you want to put in permanent effects, little markers on the server, that’d be fun. A marker where a PC fell, a scripted lore dialogue from an NPC or two, perhaps scarring of a building. It can be as simple or involved as you like.
_


Its a lovely vision certainly, it requires that , you have enough players and DMs that can get together at the same times often enough. I doubt that 4 , 4 hour sessions would be able to push along a the tale that you laid out even 8 sessions would be hard pressed. I have seen PCs take weeks to just make their plans and do all of their pre scouting to assault something. Usually because players B & C won't move forward without player A who can only be on maybe once a week and finding a day when DM +A+B+C all have time together is a nightmare . . .. then you add to the mix the random players who pops in and has no clue whats going on and you spend the next hour bringing them up to speed and the encounters you had set up for A+B+C are no longer viable because they would fry players D+E+F you spend another hour reworking stuff . Maybe others can do it faster or push it better. I know my limitations

I am willing to bend reality to a certain extent but I am not going to bump level 1 PCs so they can play with lvl 15s nor am I going to simply require all PCs to suspend their IC ness to accommodate some PC they have never met IC and expect them to work together as if they had been doing so for ages.


Honestly I don't have the OCC time in my RL where I hold down a job, work my 20 acre farm and try to build on MS to DM with any intensity more then once a week and not having a outlet to go Play would burn me out VERY quickly. 20 years ago I could probably manage it as I edge closer to 60 not so much
What you are describing is a campaign setting, not a persistent world. That's fine...that's truly D&D, and there is of course nothing wrong with that. I have long lobbied that ALFA maybe should be both, and the ability to have multiple PC's has in part moved the community perhaps towards that.

In a perfect world, that scenario I laid out would be scripted with level tests in the dialogue, and players could organize their own adventures by forming their own groups and coordinating calendars on their own. Players could then have the chance to do the quest as a series, doing the first set of quests this time, and then the second set 4 months from now when their PC is higher. Each iteration of the server coming up in rotation would then add a new event, and a new set of quests, making the amount of material grow and grow.

As for balancing play time and building time, I understand. You want to bring out Red and get into a quest when you are hungry for adventure and need some fun time. Totally understandable. No reason you couldn't do that on the server that is up in the rotation.
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Re: Come together

Post by Zelknolf »

Duck One wrote:So let me try it from another angle: what is the difference between having 25% of the players 100% of the time, or 100% of the players 25% of the time? You seem to be caught up on the fact that the builders and DM's will lose interest if the players are occupied on another server, but isn't that happening now? As a builder, it would be easier for me to plan and test without interruptions, and having a goal in mind (be ready for my turn in the rotation) would keep me excited and motivated. If knowing that 100% of the community is on its way to your server soon is not motivation enough, I am not sure what would be. If the prospect of a more engaged and thriving player base isn't attractive, I am not sure what else would work.
"This work I'm doing for my hobby will matter in three months" is, in practice, pretty terrible motivation. The smaller number of people who are on your server right now are an active audience who you know you can give stuff to, and you know they will use it. The larger number is vague, and in the eyes of dwindling motivation of an artist with no audience, it's easy to view it as that they just won't show up (which is a thing that will only get more severe with time; keep in mind that willpower, creativity, memory, and reasoning are the same exhaustible resource).

I'd probably point to our incomplete servers as evidence of this. If motivation was as you say-- and a few months of intense work to get a month of all of ALFA playing the stuff you made was plenty to keep people going-- we'd expect it to be really easy to get a server live. If a human could intensely focus on build and keep motivation up for three months, they'd be able to get a server to live in that time, and the burst of activity from basically all of ALFA and the sparkley-eyed wonder at the novelty of it lasts about a month. The reality, though, is that the overwhelming majority of servers die before they make it to beta, the ones that make it take much longer, and I have to assume that it's pretty rare for the reason to be that the builder(s) are physically incapable of continuing.

Now, clearly this won't describe everyone (some servers do get built, but there's two of us still here who have done that, being Teric and I) but how do we make sure we have those people and that they'll produce?
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