Death Shouldn't Feel like a Punishment

[Xanthea]

Okay, so my level 7 PC just died. No complaints about it, could have been captured instead and survived but I felt like the timing was right to die so I asked the DM for a kill instead. It was a fine and fitting death and I enjoyed it.

But then there's the thing that comes after. I was pretty much exclusively playing in a campaign, where the average level is around 5-7. I can't get back in on that with a fresh PC, level gap is too big. I'm looking at maybe 3-4 months of soulless grinding on a server that's empty most of the time, with a majority of PCs out of my level range. And so I'm asking the question, if ALFA wants to be a permadeath server, why does it make death feel like a punishment?

As it is, the biggest effect this has is me not playing the game until another dedicated low level campaign comes along in six months or a year to hop on. I have better things to do with my time than run mail quests on an empty server hoping for a few scraps of DM attention every so often. ALFA is only fun with a DM, and campaigns with a set time every week are the only cost effective way to get that. Player density and player population are both too small to make ALFA any good at being a 24/7 persistent world.

In PnP if someone dies in the middle of a campaign you don't bring them back to their level 7 party with a fresh level 1, you introduce a new PC at maybe level 5 or 6 and get them back in the group and playing again. That's how you have death without it being crushingly demoralizing. Isn't it about time we let DMs do the same for their campaigns and actually let people get back in on the action?

Death should punish the character, not the player.

[Adanu]

You can't have your consequences cake and eat it too. Permadeath is supposed to mean dead.

I have a lowbie campaign on WHL trying to get off the ground that needs more PCs as it is, if you're interested.

[Xanthea]

You can't have your consequences cake and eat it too.

I can, uh, cite multiple examples of you being able to do just that, and in fact did so in the first post of the topic.

[Adanu]

Are you interested in my lowbie campaign?

[Galadorn]

Sorry to hear your PC died Xanthea.

In my opinion: the problem (for you) is this may have been a campain, but it's run in a persistent world where there are rules that (at least when ALFA started), the majority all agreed upon and wanted to follow. These days even pillars are not as sacred as some of us thought, so who knows?

If the campains are run so that they are 100% seperate from the other half of players who don't usually play campains (on purpose or because of playtime issues), then starting at 6th level because of a death would seem fine by most. But, I assume the characters in the campains are fully permitted, whenever they want, to play between sessions on any ALFA server, even if discouraged by the DM of the campain(s), the player's PC can still intermix and play with (against? ) PCs in the persistent world of ALFA "off session". So, allowing people to just create a PC above "Starting level" would not be "fair".

People or you could certainly ask/promise/be-allowed to create a PC that is "ONLY" in the campain... but that PC still influences other PCs, and would bring up, I think, more issues with respect to "what is the bottom line" on starting elvels across the board.

I sincerely am sorry you lost your PC though, and kudos to you for letting him/her go when the RP for it made more sense than bringing him/her back.

[shad0wfax]

I'm actively DMing on BG, Xanthea, and all levels are welcome. You should feel free to bring a character on and get in on the action.

[Brokenbone]

<SNIP>
But then there's the thing that comes after. I was pretty much exclusively playing in a campaign, where the average level is around 5-7. I can't get back in on that with a fresh PC, level gap is too big. I'm looking at maybe 3-4 months of soulless grinding on a server that's empty most of the time, with a majority of PCs out of my level range. And so I'm asking the question, if ALFA wants to be a permadeath server, why does it make death feel like a punishment?
<SNIP>

Bummer. I was pretty much ready to step my PC off a narrow ledge-bridge thing with illithids fore and aft as a "death before capture" option... well before realizing it was a sort of "Y" shaped set of rock formations with a potential 3rd less covered route.

Anyhow, I agree that the question is a good one - much in line of previous observations that "content" and "interesting stuff" make permadeath less of a deterrent to play. It is funny though that permadeath can be a deterrent to play, either in terms of "no way I'm doing this high risk tactic in some dungeon or hook etc.", or "bah, why bother playing catch up through endless boredom?"

I do not know how many people will remember this, but at the end of NWN1, dying days of the project for ALFA really, we did experiment with both 2nd PC and "higher than level 1" start, for campaign use only. The thread is, I believe, pruned, but it was an experiment in Sembia, there was an announcement / bullet list of points probably in Valdimir's name, and I think the first campaign that was taking advantage of this was either being run by, or going to be used by, Rotku. I do not know how it worked out, it was simply notable for "changing several unchangeable rules", like having a dedicated campaign-only 2nd PC, could have a level of "catch up worthiness" a little small bit below avg party level, start with an avg wealth budget, but also asked not to engage in CvC as a defender or aggressor outside of campaign (think "wow instant level 4 PC, what if he hypothetically menaces a bunch of non-campaign PCs unfairly with this advantage!?!?!"). Idea also of looting of an instant level, instant gear character being DM moderated, as in, "um, yeah this horrendous combat happened to break his really nice shield and his bum smashed the couple 700gp potions on his belt, really awkward fall." Idea again being, wouldn't accidentally have an instant "loot balloon" joining campaigns.

I'd suggest we've been in NWN2's dying days for a good few years now, with some well embraced changes like "2nd PC if desired" to try to stir up vitality of the project some.

I have this feeling that "content isn't much going to change" in terms of servers, their areas, statics etc., sure there's odds and ends hak changes and DMs of varying levels of stamina and creativity come and go, but largely we've got whatever we've got and it's going to stay static. Adjustments to the way we play are I guess always on the table... things like "want to congregate" or "want a new way to experience ALFAdom" brought about 2nd PC, maybe dusting off the campaign PC thing makes sense. Whether you called it something like a Dark Sun character tree with "fallback characters of lesser level" developing in the background, or normal PnP concepts like "fine, party level is 5, you can join with a 4 with $xxxx in gold and items worth no more than $yyy gp each available in Baldur's Gate."

As it stands though, yeah, the idea of "here is a group of fun stuff you've been in for 6 months, you're welcome to join again but you probably will want to do 50 statics first, FYI the story continues in one week", I'd say that doesn't have much appeal.

[kid]

Xan is correct.
We should allow DMs to allow players to start anew in a campaign appropriate level.

I guess most of us are getting older, we don't have as much time as we used to.
Silly leveling up (which 99% already did in many servers along the years) is just not appealing.

[orangetree]

From personal experience Death feels like a punishment- not just because of the death of the actual character, but because you are saying goodbye to past social circles and the characters you played with. They get to continue the journey you were part of, and for you it has ended. With a low player base, (Especially in certain areas of the world) This can often mean, you are alone again.

In normal PnP, generally, everyone is at the same level because everyone is doing similar things at the same time. With online RPGs, individuals can do other things and die doing them. I can only imagine going to a PnP game and saying- "yeah I did something and now my char died, can i roll another?" in the middle of a high level campaign.

I don't really have a solution for it other then time, luck, feel angry when you want to be angry, and hopefully a new group can be formed. You are in a very well placed time zone I think. The 2nd PC rule has been very useful in making higher level players experience low levels- (though both my PCs are low level.)

Sorry I know it isn't much solace.

[Castano]

The fact 2 ALFA DMs offered up level one campaigns on this thread proves there's no issue here other than wanting to get back in the same group/campaign with a 6th level toon immediately.

Your PC died and that is an IC consequence for the group. If needed the DM can roll an NPC to help fill your spot so as to not disrupt the campaign, and you could help finish that campaign as a DM running said NPC - then dumping it once the sessions end.

But chances are you will ask to keep the toon, rendering death meaningless, except for changing PC names/background and any optimization that you can engage in while leveling a 6th level to fill the role in that group - ALFA's answer to that is a firm no.

[Zelknolf]

Seems Castano beat me to my first bit, so sticking that in a spoiler box. Basically the same thing with different words.

Spoiler:

The campaign PCs thing keeps coming up, but it's never had the support or momentum to get implemented. It'd also cheapen other characters who had to work harder for the same level, would exaggerate existing problems of unequal treatment by DM interest/availability, and present difficult-to-reconcile narrative inconsistencies with these sudden appearances. And those will all be problems for as long as we're a persistent world (which we're unlikely to cease to be, as if you actually want an isolated campaign where the only rules are what the DM says at that moment, that setup is much easier than fussing with ALFA).

Would think you'd find more fertile ground in just trying to provide meaningful content for lowbies. The grind is the grind because it has been built as a grind (that is, they're largely-unconnected tasks which can be taken and easily disregarded. The mail still gets carried if no one carries the mail; the goblins don't actually swamp over the roads if they're not beaten back; escaped criminals don't establish themselves and start waylaying travelers if you don't bring them in)-- but that can be answered by writing in connections, accounting for failure conditions, and having quest state bleed into one another, which anyone can learn how to do.

[kid]

Zelk, Cast, you're posts doesn't make sense.
If it was about power Xan coulda just played Rani who's a level 258258 cleric.

The issue is being able to play with your buddies like you've been doing for how ever long.
You could do it with a lv1, but sense we insist on playing DnD that sucks.

Either make rules to make the game playable for all levels which is unDnDy (And a big no-no for some reason)
Or allow people to do what you do in PnP DnD and start a level or two behind their buddies.

Anything else is just being silly.
Trying to save PW (which is long dead) at the expanse of DM'd games seems bad.

On the other hand I haven't played in a very long time so ya'll do whatever you think is right.

[Brokenbone]

ALFA's current answer is "firm no" to campaign PCs, but were it not for NWN1 Sembia forum pruning, I could show you the details of the program that briefly ran as a test / pilot. Not agitating for that as a renewed program, but when I hear "oh no we'd never do that" type tones, we've been there and done that... though maybe since NWN1 was on life support at the time and people were v. excited about moving to NWN2, maybe it was a low scrutiny "do whatever you want with old and busted, NWN2 is new hotness" type situation.

[Xanthea]

With all due respect, I feel like the point is being missed here. I feel like I have to cite relevant credentials here now, which isn't totally unexpected given ALFA's weird culture.

1) Like Kid said, this is not about power. I have a high level cleric alive and well who is like an order of magnitude more powerful than anything the dead PC could ever hope to achieve. This is about being able to actually play with a group in a system that does not support a huge level disparity.

2) Again, chose to die. I could have been captured instead with a high level of confidence that the DM would have worked me back in with the same PC in a few sessions and none of this would be an issue. But a death was more fitting for the plot at the time so I asked for that instead. A system that punishes that decision is a system that encourages an OOC desire to avoid losing a PC at all costs.

[Zelknolf]

I made no argument about power; I made an argument about cheapening others by altering the context in which they play, damaging narrative consistency, and our already sorely-lacking presentation of fairness in play. I also presented an obvious solution for yourself (and indeed, many others who may come after you) to make our world more enjoyable to new PCs who haven't yet found a group.

Castano made an argument about subverting permadeath and the likely damage to fairness in play, and noted the presence of low-level options for a new character.


This is probably why the posts make no sense; you've assumed they are about things that they are objectively not.