Opinions on the Current Death System

[Zelknolf]

In the context of a recent discussion in the brainstorming forum here, I am seeking opinions on the player base's opinions about our current death system.

I'm sure that I'll get some jabs about the options for the poll, as "I don't like this but I'm still playing" covers a wide variety of intensities and nuance, it gets a lot harder to measure the state of things meaningfully with more granularity.

Importantly, this poll is not binding. I will not be changing death without support from the DMA and whomever else he would like to include in the decision, but I also do not wish to use up my or the DMA's time discussing change without some clear indication that we could improve things for most people with a change. That's all this poll is.


For those unfamiliar, our current death system operates as follows:

• When an NPC is the subject of a death effect for which it is not protected, or when the NPC is reduced to 0 hit points, it dies. Death is not regarded as meaningfully different between creature types to the game engine (outsiders = humanoids = constructs = undead, even though in the narrative of the world different things happen to them when they run out of hit points and DMs sometimes do stuff with that-- that's plots and server content, and thus not really my role or business).
• When a PC is reduced to 0 or fewer hit points, the PC falls to the ground and begins bleeding. In this state, the PC is regarded as unconscious and helpless, and may take no actions. Every round, there is a 10% chance that a bleeding PC will naturally stabilize. PCs who do not stabilize lose 1 hit point.
  • A naturally-stabilized PC has a 10% chance to begin to recover every hour. PCs who do not begin to recover based on this check instead lose 1 hit point.
  • An able PC may use a kit (healer's or first aid) to force a bleeding PC to stabilize, with a DC 15 heal check.
  • An able PC may use magical healing to force a bleeding PC to stabilize, which happens automatically but does not necessarily prompt recovery.
• If a PC is reduced to -10 hit points, or is the subject of a death effect which they fail to resist, our handling branches...
  • If the PC was taken from "standing" (1 or more hit points) to dead with a single attack, or by multiple simultaneous attacks (such as an NPC attacker with 4 or more attacks per round, during one of the flurries which resolve attacks simultaneously), that PC is saved by the "death floor." The death floor is an invented mechanic specifically for ALFA, operating from spring of 2008 to the present, wherein some PCs who would otherwise be regarded as dead are instead placed at -6 hit points and begins bleeding immediately, allowing allies 18 seconds to get healing to the downed PC and roughly a 1 in 3 chance of stabilizing naturally.
  • If the PC was already bleeding, stabilized, or recovering (defined above), the PC is dead, and is removed from play with a placeable left in the place of the PC to serve as the PC's dead body.
• Four spells are established in practice as capable of returning dead PCs to life: Reincarnate, Raise Dead, Resurrection, and True Resurrection. Though Clone could also serve as a canonical reference, I am not aware of any cases of its use. The ACR only explicitly handles Raise Dead and Resurrection.

[Adanu]

Does anyone know what the hp floor was originally intended for?

[oldgrayrogue]

Just ditch the -6 floor. Simplest solution. Character turnover is healthy for the project. Especially now with 2 PCs playable, players need not risk their "treasured" high level PC if they want to play it in perpetuity. We claim to be hardcore, lets actually be hardcore.

If you want to preserve a "less lethal" "hardcore" ALFA then leave the floor in place for levels 1 to 3. This gives new characters more of chance to develop with a decreased risk of death. Higher level characters don't need this crutch. As Ronan points out, rezzes are easily attainable and pursued often.

From the Brainstorming Thread.

[MaskedIllusion]

I like things the way they are. I see no real problem here. And I don't see a huge reason to go upsetting the balance and implementing changes when there are other things that need to be fixed in alfa.

[kid]

In this state, the PC is regarded as unconscious and helpless, and may take no actions. Every round, there is a 10% chance that a bleeding PC will naturally stabilize....allowing allies 18 rounds to get healing to the downed PC and roughly a 1 in 3 chance of stabilizing naturally...

Automatically bugged me... (A math OCD thing I suppose) but it's closer to 1 in 4.

[Brokenbone]

I'm reminded that ALFA-izing Reincarnate ought be done someday. Even if it's just "if you roll an unplayable race as a DM, just roll again." I've seen Reincarnates IG, odd races off the table like half-drow when it was a Slyth Druid in the UD doing the spell, and a few times I've seen gender switches. It's cheap and low level too though in relative terms, 1000gp and Dru 4, rather than 5000gp and Cleric 5. Even a lowbie adventurer party may be able to pass the hat for a beloved companion and shake out that much coin (hypothetical quartet of 5s, one has a prized +1 weapon, but prizes their ally more... vendor time!)

Anyhow I come out on the "play, yet lenient" side. Death magic is my main sore point. Death magic is hated and terrifying, one bad save and you're toast! But again in ALFA, it's Bleed Magic. So while a PnP Bodak: fearsome, ALFA Bodak: hey whatever, I have partymates and we've got lots of healing we're packing. So it's like death monsters take a back seat to say, petrify monsters like medusa or basilisk and whatnot. Just a little off putting.

A similar thing disliked about the death system is foes "losing interest." I saw cartoons as a kid where if Bugs Bunny played dead, sure, a bear might ignore him. Maybe that works in RL too. But sometimes you'd figure an ornery bear just keeps on mauling, and digging a muzzle into tender guts to grab tasty organ meat, even as it bats away a second man with a pointy stick. Take this into intelligent foe territory and consider "unconscious guy is a wonderful coup de grace target for band of goblins, even if there is still one human adventurer tangling with them." Sure, four out of five goblins may keep engaged with the adventurer, but one snivelling goblin goes over and stomps a big flappy foot on downed guy's throat, dead. Yes it sucks but if even just a small % chance for "animal or intelligent NPCs sometimes make sure disabled actually means dead" might add some urgency to getting a buddy back on feet, not just "he got a cure minor, hope no one has AoE spells kicking in soon..."

[Zelknolf]

Quite a bit of repetition of "hardcore" presented as "challenge curve" -- can I ask where we say that? The only one I know about is about encouraging people to not make characters only for loot and violence.

Automatically bugged me... (A math OCD thing I suppose) but it's closer to 1 in 4.

It is exactly 34.39% (1 - 0.9^4). I'm guessing that you forgot the -6->-7 check (which would indeed give you 27.1%). Yes, you see 7 damage taken after hitting the floor, but remember that damage is applied to you post-instant-raise (and you thus have 1 hit point before the damage). Also, yes, you usually see people with -7 hit points if you mouse over them after they trigger the floor, but remember that the first check is instant.

Does anyone know what the hp floor was originally intended for?

Vaguely. It looks like most of the discussion was pruned, as it happened about six years ago (probably in general discussion?), though the Core Rules forum speaks of it as intending to make sure that no one died without a chance to be healed by friends. One part "we kill too often per level," one part "we kill too abruptly and the user experience is terrible," one part "we want to encourage people to adventure in parties." The only comment in the old style release notes is descriptive-- a 'this is what it is' instead of 'this is why it is.'

[Galadorn]

If the PC was taken from "standing" (1 or more hit points) to dead with a single attack, or by multiple simultaneous attacks (such as an NPC attacker with 4 or more attacks per round, during one of the flurries which resolve attacks simultaneously), that PC is saved by the "death floor." The death floor is an invented mechanic specifically for ALFA, operating from spring of 2008 to the present, wherein some PCs who would otherwise be regarded as dead are instead placed at -6 hit points and begins bleeding immediately, allowing allies 18 rounds to get healing to the downed PC and roughly a 1 in 3 chance of stabilizing naturally.

If a PC hit's the floor at -6, and automatically bleeding taking 1hp/rd, and dies at -10, how again does the PC's friends get 18 rounds to save him? Wouldn't this mean allies only get...3-4 rounds to save him?

EDIT: is that supposed to say: "18 seconds"?

[Zelknolf]

If the PC was taken from "standing" (1 or more hit points) to dead with a single attack, or by multiple simultaneous attacks (such as an NPC attacker with 4 or more attacks per round, during one of the flurries which resolve attacks simultaneously), that PC is saved by the "death floor." The death floor is an invented mechanic specifically for ALFA, operating from spring of 2008 to the present, wherein some PCs who would otherwise be regarded as dead are instead placed at -6 hit points and begins bleeding immediately, allowing allies 18 rounds to get healing to the downed PC and roughly a 1 in 3 chance of stabilizing naturally.

If a PC hit's the floor at -6, and automatically bleeding taking 1hp/rd, and dies at -10, how again does the PC's friends get 18 rounds to save him? Wouldn't this mean allies only get...3-4 rounds to save him?

EDIT: is that supposed to say: "18 seconds"?

Yes, it is supposed to say "18 seconds." First bleed check is instant, which has confused many people in the past. Original post is fixed.

[Adanu]

My only real problem with removing the floor is very simple:

The UI is terrible without using pause for aiming spells. If every single encounter was pausable to allow people to react for a few seconds I'd consider removing the floor, but as it is, combined with the slow progression, I can't see removing it as fair without giving players the ability to pause during combat (good luck with that).

[Castano]

I agree mainly with BB. Put reincarnate in, take out the -6 floor. It's abused enough during combat, tanks routinely fight to single digits knowing the floor is there. I'm used to running when in the teens on HP.

[Ronan]

I suspect a significant portion of the disagreement stems from differing experiences. When PCs count on the floor and make decisions around it, it becomes ridiculous. When this does not occur, or the PCs do not have access to a lot of healing, it seems much more reasonable.

If the floor is removed I will remove death spells from a few of BG's mobs. In my opinion its catching of death spells is a feature, not a bug. I realize many people disagree with this, but in my opinion 3.5 was not balanced with our slow progression in mind. It was also not created with our strong culture of not raising dead PCs and our requirement to start over from level 1.

OGR, I agree that PC turnover is healthy for the project, but only if new PCs have plots and things to become involved in.

[Castano]

I agree with Ronan too, death magic is an issue if we are limiting rez's. I think making reincarnate more available is a good stop gap solution, and can provide RP opportunities.

[MaskedIllusion]

OGR, I agree that PC turnover is healthy for the project, but only if new PCs have plots and things to become involved in.

+1

[kid]

ah, gotcha Zelk.