"First" Impressions: Diminishing returns

[boombrakh]

I know it's been a while since this was implemented, but I havn't really been that active these past months so this "first impression" isn't really that "first" i guess

I am a player who doesn't really get a lot of DM attention. This is of course mostly because of conflicting time zone issues than anything else. This means that when I don't have the pleasure of random RP with a fellow player, I tend to do stuff like mail runs when I am online. Before the implementation of diminishing returns, this gave a modest amount of xp and gold which due to increasing amount of xp needed to gain a new level kept becoming less and less of percentage of the total needed xp of each level. I did a rundown of this on the DM forums some time back where I showed that fixed xp as a reward already served as its own diminishing return for the reason stated. Now that I have had the oppertunity to experience first hand the result of diminishing returns, not only did it confirm to me that it was indeed redundant, but also had another side effect. - Increased character wealth.

Before, since you actually got a modest amount of xp, the amount of gold didn't impact the character that much. I asked for the math behind the diminishing returns on the chat and was met with suspicion of power gaming so I can't really give the exact numbers for this. Instead i tried it out for myself on MS and since my character is level 6 the examples below will reflect this. When you completed a mail run that gave you 30 xp and 30 gp at level 6 you recieved 0.5% of your total level required xp and 0,38% of the average character wealth for that level. That meant, assuming that you did nothing other than go back and forth, doing mail runs from the start of level 6 until you hit level 7, first you would do the same mail run 200 times and you would end up with 6000 xp and 6000 gp (1800 less gold than what the average character wealth would indicate the character should be at on level 7).

Now, trying this with diminishing returns, I got 17 xp and 30 gp for the same mail run. This means that if I were to put myself in the same situation as described above where I only did the same mail run over and over between the start of level 6 until I hit level 7 that I would have to repeat the same statistic for 353 times (1.76 times more). I don't have that big of an issue with it aside from the fact that it serves as double diminishing returns (increased experience required between levels and lowered reward) but when I look at it from the wealth perspective it also means I'd get 1.76 times the gold that I'd normally get on that level. Instead of leaving me at 1800 gp less than the average character wealth increase for that level it would leave me at 2790 gp above it. Now, that is a substantial difference and over several levels, the increase would of course only get bigger. I would really like to present the numbers for all levels to further show how this would impact character wealth, to show how this isn't really that well thought through, but as stated, I can't.


I just thought I should bring this to attention. My thoughts on the matter is that we really don't need diminishing returns on statics, but I suspect the proper ALFA reaction to this will be to implement diminishing returns to gold reward as well.



SIDE NOTE:

Castano said on the chat "ALFA is not about running a gauntlet of statics to power level. We're more focused on DM'd adventures" and that is a wonderful goal, but in reality it doesn't work like that. We are experiencing a DM shortage, at least during the euro timezones when I and my friends can play. There has been a significant drop in swedish presence in ALFA and one of the reasons is that there is no one around to DM our group. That leads us to do other things when we muster enough enthusiasm to go online. Statics being those "other things". Statics aren't the evil that it is painted out to be. It helps players such as myself to keep coming back, to stay online and create a player presence in ALFA. And this "stigmatization" of statics really have to stop.


At least that's my thoughts on the matter.


/me takes his soap box and leaves

[Ithildur]

Boom, no one but a small percentage of players get a lot of DM attention atm.

Your previous PC before Jax got a lot of DM attention (I should know); Spike Elf did not. Coincidentally, you farmed your way with Jax through the static contents on 3 servers to the point you were given a warning or strike. Probably not a direct correlation, but you tend to reap what you sow. I suspect a good part of the reason why dim returns were put in place at all is because of episodes like with Jax and a couple of the Trills.

You probably have to deal with it for now bro.

Eventually a DM will run something that works out for you and you may get attention again, but you have to deal with lulls like everyone else does from time to time.

That said, you're playing on MS which has active DMs, and you have a lowbie in Teric's campaign on WHL. If BG comes up and you can make early saturday mornings, you're welcome to hang with Aglaril. Most of my game on BG currently consists of trying to explore and find areas that I've never seen before or patroling the two forests, and occasionally a smallish high CR dungeon, all of it sans DM. I don't worry about xp because it doesn't exist for Aglaril outside of that one dungeon.

In all likelihood you'll probably be getting more DMage than I will (SE stuff will be coming to an end soon).

[boombrakh]

First of all, this isn't about me but since you only focused on the "Side Note", I guess that is where we are going with this. I just wanted to point something out that I had thought of, not "defend" anything I may or may not have done half a year ago.

Boom, no one but a small percentage of players get a lot of DM attention atm.

The more important my point above in the original post. (If you can look past the side note)

Your previous PC before Jax got a lot of DM attention (I should know); Spike Elf did not. Coincidentally, you farmed your way with Jax through the static contents on 3 servers to the point you were given a warning or strike. Probably not a direct correlation, but you tend to reap what you sow. I suspect a good part of the reason why dim returns were put in place at all is because of episodes like with Jax and a couple of the Trills.

Coincidentally, I had just quit my job, spent up to 10 hours a day online playing, got next to no DM attention. So yeah, I got a lot of experience from statics. I started playing on TSM, wanted to play there because it was as far away as possible from where my previous PC died so that I could get a new setting. After getting saved from PC death by an on-call DM twice because of lag issues I gave up. TSM had been nothing but an uphill from day one and my patience had run out. There were still plenty of statics left to do if that was my main goal, but it wasn't, so I left.

Coming to BG felt like a whole new start. I asked paazin if it was ok to come to BG despite having been logged in with my other PC less than 30 days ago if I moved him to WHL and he agreed. I played a lot on BG and yes, of course I did statics, because the problem with having no DM take interest in my character was present on BG as well. DarkMystic said he had a few ideas that he might start up, but nothing happened.

Then I went to MS because I was told/asked to, promise of DM love was just too much to ignore. And as you say, I got a lot of DM attention with my previous PC and it set the expectation-bar pretty high and left me with a serious case of the shakes. Needless to say, and you know this as well as I do, "Spike Elf" did not receive any DM attention on MS as well. So I did what anyone who had 10 hours online a day to kill, I signed up for the MS Postal Service because hey, abusing the other broken statics where I could get superfast instant xp was not really a viable option. Instead I reported that back to Castano and it got taken out (and hopefully fixed). True sign of an xp farmer

So believe me or not when I say that I wasn't farming. It really doesn't matter at this point. The "temporary strike" was because I thought I was doing Regas a favor by not arguing against it since he really didn't want to deal with the work. He's always been cool to me and had it been anyone else, I would have stood my ground. You try being online for 8-10 hours every day for a month and see how fun that is if all you do is emote by yourself. Players go to where the DMs are, it's as simple as that.

That said, you're playing on MS which has active DMs, and you have a lowbie in Teric's campaign on WHL. If BG comes up and you can make early saturday mornings, you'll be getting more DMage than I get (SE stuff will be coming to an end soon).

I am not playing on MS because playing on MS for me is like playing russian roulette. I am afraid to even login because of potential witch hunts. The only reason I am on MS is because I got myself validated on MS on account of BG being down. While on MS, I figured i'd try out the theory behind increased character wealth in relation to diminishing returns. As soon as I was done, I logged off.

[Adanu]

Boom, no one but a small percentage of players get a lot of DM attention atm.

I keep telling you people to talk to me, and you continue to ignore me.

Your own fault there.

[Zelknolf]

Your gold math doesn't count the RPXP you'd acquire from the time it takes you to run those mail runs.

If quests are written according to ALFA's standards for static quest rewards, which includes minimum time required to complete the runs, then people leveling off of static content end up a little bit below the mark. We worked through this math before implementing. You'd need to murder a fair number of things with CRs more than 8 points below your level (some gold, no XP), loot some dead adventurers, or hit level 20 and continue to do stuff to catch up on gold. Or get DMed. But as Ith notes, DM coverage is rarely better than 50%, even if we define coverage as broadly as "non-zero quantity of DMed plot over the course of a month." Closer to 20% if we're looking for how many people are in regular sessions.


For the rest-- that is known, but the position of tech is that the farming strike is the collateral of a design flaw (that is-- it was possible to advance in a way that prompted punitive action, and that way was not cheating or exploiting bugs), and that just throwing the "bad people" out for unclear measures is untenable. (for numerous reasons-- mostly in defining said "bad people") That doesn't make the current state of advancement ideal; it is simply argued that the current overall state is better than it was.

The DMA seat had his own reasons for dimrets; I'll let Cast write up his opinion himself if he likes. I'm not confident that I'd get it exactly right if I tried to repeat it.

[Ithildur]

Tech Team's position is noted, thank you for your hard work and input... but no one said we should throw the bastard out.

I do clearly remember the discussions with other DMs (and the guy who is currently DMA) about this case...

[Castano]

We considered gold input when we put "dimrets" in place. See Zelk's post above. Edit: when I say considered we considered that the un-DM'd were largely well below wealth cutoffs to the point that they required DM intervention if we could get to them. There's a list of 14 odd PCs in this state in the DM forums. So any minor increase in the gp side of the XP:gp ratio was welcomed.

Lastly, the dimrets were added after months of vociferous complaints from community members that people were making level 6 in like a month by going on a static circuit. With dimrets you can now play more often and not worry you will be viewed as farming/power leveling. I think it's a good compromise between our session gamers and those who prefer to live in a PW and be online for many hours each day. I want people to play as often as they like w/o worry that their XP gain will become a problem.

[HEEGZ]

I want people to play as often as they like w/o worry that their XP gain will become a problem.

I would also like to echo that people should feel free to play as much as they like without worry about xp/gp. Just ensure you are roleplaying and not farming excessively. The statics are there, enjoy them if that is your thing, just don't make it your only thing.

Back to a comment by Boom, are there any of the swedes interested in DMing your group at your playtimes?

[danielmn]

I want people to play as often as they like w/o worry that their XP gain will become a problem.

I would also like to echo that people should feel free to play as much as they like without worry about xp/gp. Just ensure you are roleplaying and not farming excessively. The statics are there, enjoy them if that is your thing, just don't make it your only thing.

Back to a comment by Boom, are there any of the swedes interested in DMing your group at your playtimes?

That was the initial intention of raising dimrets as a whole as a possibility of inclusion. When PA I recieved so much greif from fast advancement, and the prosecution thereof, I felt it necessarry to bring the suggestion forward in order to achieve what Cast has pointed out...the ability to play freely without having to look over your own shoulder in moderation for fear of censure.

[Castano]

I want people to play as often as they like w/o worry that their XP gain will become a problem.

I would also like to echo that people should feel free to play as much as they like without worry about xp/gp. Just ensure you are roleplaying and not farming excessively. The statics are there, enjoy them if that is your thing, just don't make it your only thing.

Under the old system it was fairly easy to RP yourself and your buddies doing statics and end up farming anyway (you can complete most in 1/2-2 hours each, some less than that), if you were on the server say 8 hours a day that would be like 4-6 statics counting RP for breaks between like resting in the inn etc. We wanted to take that problem away. If you are bored and want your lvl 10 pally to hunt down a farmer's missing plow for 1 XP that's fine, followed up by fetching a water clock for a crazy gnome barkeep...

[kid]

Dim ret good.
Postman class bad.

[Heero]

What about squirrel killer (or BG berrygobbler)? Surely this warrants some XP although I don't feel any wiser or stringer after defeating one in RL earlier. I guess its FR and its magic so no comparison? Magic squirrels impart wisdom upon their killing mayhap.

[vergin_sacrifice]

Dim ret good.
Postman class bad.

The Postman was a hero man... deal with it, all that delivering mail made the shakespeare an ass kicker.

Oh well. It's dying anyway, why argue so much.