Alignment Changes

[ElCadaver]

I have heard that some scripts are now changing alignment.

Some people like to create characters with conflicting class alignments for fun, or for the unique skills they bring.

Would this be frowned upon, if a player set out from the get go to have something like a

Barbarian/Monk/Paladin/Assassin

just because they could? It would sure make for an interesting complex character.

[t-ice]

if a player set out from the get go to have something like a
Barbarian/Monk/Paladin/Assassin
just because they could? It would sure make for an interesting complex character.

Yes, yes it would. But it equally sure doesn't need all those class levels for it. You can be some kind of character without any need for class level in it. You can murder people without having the Assassin class, and you can be a fanatic righteous avenger without a single level of paladin. People can already play this oxymoron you propose just as well (or it is just as impossible, whichever way you want to put it).

What's the point and need for the char sheet complexity and trying to bend the rules as far as you can without breaking? Other than "because I can".

[ElCadaver]

I suppose, not only do some enjoy role playing, but also PC's which are technically difficult or interesting to play, because of their skill mix.

[NESchampion]

The only issue I have with setting your character out in stone from the beginning applies to all character builds, not just alignment variable ones, which is that you are pretty much saying none of your future IC interactions will influence your characters' path.

It's great for characters and players to have goals, but my personal preference is to let the interactions take my character as they will, not to follow some path I set out at level 1 without regards to events happening around my character.

[Blindhamsterman]

personally I set up one major focal goal for a character when I make them (current one as most by now know - was to have him as a bladesinger PRC or no. Previous was a young arcanist trying to learn wizardly arts at the same time as harnessing his own innate abilities (sorc/wiz)).

I think having one major goal that the PC has like that really helps define them, that being said, I agree with NES that IC interactions should have major affects on how a PC actually grows from there on out.

Alignment changes are certainly one of them (current toon having gone from CG to CN to CG to NG over the course of his 2 year life).

Actual build will very rarely be affected by IC interactions, only places I imagine you'd see notable affects in most cases... would be skills e.g. your PC has to research some ancient society due to a DM plot or at another PCs request - and picks up Knowledge History as a consequence... or your PC spends a lot of time around wizards and picks up draconic etc.

<edit>
of course an obvious example of an IC interaction having an even bigger effect is diety and class changes... e.g.
Warlock of some neutral or even evil diety is 'shown the light' through interaction with goody paladin types and eventually becomes a paladin himself!

[Lady Crankenstein]

Oddly enough I have a character that is dedicated evil, as defined by the character class... I have made the challenge that if folks want to change her, They are welcome to try as good RP'rs... If they were to succeed, I have to wonder what what happened to my character class?
I could just retire the character but that makes no sense she would not be dead... But could no longer still play the same class...

What would happen in that case?

Lady Crankenstein

[Blindhamsterman]

warlocks dont have to be evil... they have to be either evil OR chaotic... so chaotic good warlocks are A-OKAY!

A warlock might've gained power from some place other than a demon - or might have gotten it through a pact their parents made... in which case they'd not have to be evil themselves either.

[t-ice]

Your character being unable to proceed down a class path if (s)he switches from the ethics required is sorta given. You can't be a cleric of Bane if someone convinces you to turn into a fluffy philantropist carebear. Or a paladin if you turn to murdering babies. etc.

In such a case, in my opinion, a good DM will allow you a chance to rebuild so that you aren't left with a mechanistic turd. Though I for one would knock you back a level or more upon it. You did just lose the basis of your PC's power after all. If you're expecting this to happen from day 1, then you should already have a sketch of a plan on how your char sheet changes upon such conversion RP. And you can ask for tentative DM approval beforehand.

[Blindhamsterman]

Warlocks can become good though, there is even a PRC outlined in one of the books all about a warlock that chooses to do 'good' with their powers (it even assumes the power was given originally by a devil/demon rather than fey) - IMO it's one of the cooler concepts for Warlocks.

[NESchampion]

Your character being unable to proceed down a class path if (s)he switches from the ethics required is sorta given. You can't be a cleric of Bane if someone convinces you to turn into a fluffy philantropist carebear. Or a paladin if you turn to murdering babies. etc.

In such a case, in my opinion, a good DM will allow you a chance to rebuild so that you aren't left with a mechanistic turd. Though I for one would knock you back a level or more upon it. You did just lose the basis of your PC's power after all. If you're expecting this to happen from day 1, then you should already have a sketch of a plan on how your char sheet changes upon such conversion RP. And you can ask for tentative DM approval beforehand.

I don't see that a rebuild would be necessary or even desirable. Fallen Paladins shouldn't get a rebuild nor non-neutral Druids really. For example, rebuilding out of a cleric to a fighter because you abandoned your deity for another seems very counter-intuitive to the idea of an immerse and consistent game world.

[t-ice]

I don't see that a rebuild would be necessary or even desirable. Fallen Paladins shouldn't get a rebuild nor non-neutral Druids really. For example, rebuilding out of a cleric to a fighter because you abandoned your deity for another seems very counter-intuitive to the idea of an immerse and consistent game world.

From a consistency and hardcore point of view you are of course correct. Fallen characters should be stuck with N levels of turd, like cleric/druid/warlock without divine/arcane powers. And then they can build on from there, taking fighter 1 or whatever at next level. But practically that doesn't leave much option than retire for the player in our PW. Naturally assuming the rp leads away from atonement and sacrificing the rp for mechanistic viability isn't desired. Not to mention that we don't really have good mechanistic means to make PCs with levels of "fallen x".

So what else would you suggest than a "re-alignment" rp, followed by a rebuild and (likely) level strip? Like Lady Crank said, retirement is the only other way I see for "fallen" PCs.

[NESchampion]

I don't see that a rebuild would be necessary or even desirable. Fallen Paladins shouldn't get a rebuild nor non-neutral Druids really. For example, rebuilding out of a cleric to a fighter because you abandoned your deity for another seems very counter-intuitive to the idea of an immerse and consistent game world.

From a consistency and hardcore point of view you are of course correct. Fallen characters should be stuck with N levels of turd, like cleric/druid/warlock without divine/arcane powers. And then they can build on from there, taking fighter 1 or whatever at next level. But practically that doesn't leave much option than retire for the player in our PW. Naturally assuming the rp leads away from atonement and sacrificing the rp for mechanistic viability isn't desired. Not to mention that we don't really have good mechanistic means to make PCs with levels of "fallen x".

So what else would you suggest than a "re-alignment" rp, followed by a rebuild and (likely) level strip? Like Lady Crank said, retirement is the only other way I see for "fallen" PCs.

You haven't identified any reason why the character must be retired instead of continuing to be played but without access to those class abilities they would lose for falling out of alignment; In the case of the Warlock class Complete Arcane doesn't say anything about losing abilities for not being chaotic or evil, so the closest analog is Barbarians: you keep all your class abilities, you just can't progress as a Warlock unless you become chaotic or evil again.

[Blindhamsterman]

or... the player can be trusted to not use the abilities they should've lost.

Grease played a cleric for a LONG time that couldn't use even a single spell due to turning from his diety.

Rebuilds because the player opted to RP out of terms for the class etc they were a part of, is totally legit, a Paladin that falls doesn't lose their paladin stuff and suddenly gain a bunch of fighter feats... they simply lose their paladin stuff. Full Stop.

Equally, Warlocks do not actually lose their power once gained, there is even a PRC dedicated to showing Warlocks doing goody stuff with the evil powers they had once gained.

[t-ice]

You haven't identified any reason why the character must be retired instead of continuing to be played but without access to those class abilities they would lose for falling out of alignment;

Playing a transition while you are powerless, like a cleric changing deities, could certainly be very much fun. But playing a PC you know will never again be able to raise up to level-appropriate challenges is not. That it's the topic here, not transitions in-between patrons or the like. I know it's just my prediction, but I'd claim most people would just retire if their PC doesn't have a future as level-appropriate PC ever, being stuck for example with 6 levels of cleric/warlock without powers. My preference would be to offer a less harsh future from such PCs in reward for their falling rp.

Oh, and also the troubles with mechanics. I like to think players can be trusted to just not use active powers, but many powers are passive, too.

In the case of the Warlock class Complete Arcane doesn't say anything about losing abilities for not being chaotic or evil, so the closest analog is Barbarians: you keep all your class abilities, you just can't progress as a Warlock unless you become chaotic or evil again.

Fair enough, this would certainly make it somewhat easier for "fallen" warlocks. For good rp reasons, "fallen" warlocks casually using their powers like nothing doesn't sound too swell, though. The tether to the lower planes that gives you the powers should be expected to run two ways, and it's a temptations you probably wouldn't want to play with if you've decided to turn away from the path it beckons for you.

[Blindhamsterman]

Although the fiendish origins of the warlock's power can't
be denied, he need not fully embrace the darkness. Some
warlocks start down the fiendish path, then repent and turn
toward the light. Such rare individuals are called enlightened
spirits.

playing one:

You're living proof that anyone can change, regardless of
where he begins. You began as an arcane magician with a
fiendish heritage, but you had a change of heart and chose
the path of good over evil.
Your new life is rewarding, but you still walk a difficult
path. Good people sometimes have trouble trusting you if
they realize what you once were, and evil folk consider you a
traitor to your former ideals. Temptation to return to your old
ways is everywhere, and will be until you die. But you have
come this far, and you know you can overcome your past.

npc reactions

Most people have little knowledge of the differences between
arcane casters and treat them all with either indifference
or hostility, depending on their past experiences. Those
who know what warlocks are and have a chance to see an
enlightened spirit use his eldritch blast treat him as they
would a warlock—with an unfriendly or even hostile attitude
if they are good, or with a friendly or helpful attitude
if they are evil.
The attitude of an evil person shifts rapidly to unfriendly
or hostile as soon as the enlightened spirit's true nature is
revealed, but a good-aligned person takes longer to accept
the enlightened spirit's good heart. Some proof—how much
depends on the person—is usually required, and even then
the attitude shifts only one step for each piece of evidence.

Thats about 'enlightened spirits - a good aligned warlock PRC, just citing the fact that warlocks actually dont lose their powers if they aren't evil, and can infact use them for 'good'