Stop Hating on the Tavern RP

[CloudDancing]

So telling players to be terrified of their servers and rightfully so because all Dms (inc. me in the past) have described the monsters and perils within as perilous is rather counter intuitive to the whole "well if you never leave the Tavern how can I Dm you?" arguement.

This was one thing I had with another HDM who unrealistically blamed the players for his lack of planning. I have yet to ever have a Pen and Paper blame the players for anything in regards to his/her DM skils other than "taking too long shopping." Because PnP DMs plan for weeks for each adventure or plan a gentle progression.

First a DM is destiny calling. Destiny calls whether you are in the loo or sitting in a tavern or walking some scary road you know is covered with Trolls for the 100 time for no apparent reason other than extreme boredom.

Second, if they don't listen to destiny, it needs to yell a little louder. For example, PCs are chatting away about gossip and a squirrel explodes next to them. Or one of their friends is suddenly met with guards and dragged off to jail. Or like six of their friends are suddenly kidnapped by ninjas..and..um..yea.

Taverns are the CLASSIC start to many pen and paper adventures. Taverns are were you naturally meet new adventurers to team up with. Taverns are for secret meetings and intrigue. Taverns are where you lick your wounds and recapitulate for the next round.

Taverns have also been the location of many a horrible battle with zombies or giant wererats and so forth.

As a Dm the most difficult thing you encounter to getting started is having all the players in one place where they can be gathered and thusly inspired to go out and change the world and save people, and possibly less noble tasks. So Taverns serve as a locus, just as in the single player NWN nights to find help, find friends, and make alliances.

A DM is God/Goddess here. I think their storytelling should be able to pry a frightened player out of a chair.

Please dicusss.

[fluffmonster]

If we adopted campaign tables as our primary design philosophy, this question would be moot.

[Blindhamsterman]

personally, I prefer to meet folk and chat IC with them around a campfire, it irritates me to no end that to find players i have to go to taverns, which IC I may or may not have any real desire to go into...

[Veilan]

What's a DM, precious?

[Blindhamsterman]

What's a DM, precious?

touche

[t-ice]

it irritates me to no end that to find players i have to go to taverns, which IC I may or may not have any real desire to go into...

In a meshed PW/Campaign setting as ours there really needs to be a neutral ground for every PC to be able to go and meet. If you decide to shun it and pick a character that isolates him/herself, well, then you opt to have fun playing alone. It's really not that hard at all to alter the IC of your char an inch so that you will have fun, and give your PC a quirk that brings the PC to the common room occasionally. Certainly easier than most PCs to come up why to meet you on your terms at your campside in the woods, or your study in the wizard's tower, or your barracks at the fortress of shiny knights, or your temple of mighty god, etc.

[Blindhamsterman]

true enough, and I do exactly that

doesn't mean I have to like it though


but alright, a serious answer to Clouds points....

I don't think any DM has a problem with running stuff for folk that were RPing in a tavern, as has been stated, it's what happens for a lot of players most of the time, on the other hand, I think what the DMs in question may be alluding to, is that they'd like to see groups of players doing things other than tavern RP when they log in, i.e. if you see a DM log in, perhaps it might be fun to IC suggest taking a trip to location x or y, or take that point to suggest some other daring do.

It's not fair to simply assume the DMs will drag you out on a story every time they log in (which I myself have been guilty of assuming many a time), sometimes you need to do something to make them decide on a suitable story etc.

Tavern RP is great with the right PCs, it can also be good fun after an adventure but as a constant activity on the servers, it wears thin, eventually you run out of new tales to tell or new topics of importance to discuss. So finding something different to do, regardless of DMs being logged in or not, isn't always a bad Idea.

And no, i'm not suggesting do it alone, do it with the same (or different) groups you'd usually tavern RP with.

disclaimer: this isn't aimed direct at Cloud, more a general view on the subject that she brought up.

[t-ice]

I think what the DMs in question may be alluding to, is that they'd like to see groups of players doing things other than tavern RP when they log in

Quite true enough, I'd say. Likely the DM doesn't know who is on when (s)he logs in, and hasn't decided what to do. Having PCs initiate something other than smalltalk can be a great catalyst in starting the story. And odds are it will be immediately more relevant to the PC in question, too, and hopefully it will be more rewarding to the player for making his/her own path instead of shifting feet until the DM makes that shove towards the start of the story.

On the other hand, if the DM has decided what to do, a shout for everyone to gather at X to find it is rather obvious.

[JaydeMoon]

As an anti-Tavern RP kind of guy:

Point brought up before by BHM is huge. It's just scads easier to think of something to do for people who are out and doing stuff than it is to contrive something totally non-sequiter for PCs sitting in the Golden Oak talking about their messy love triangles.

That doesn't mean I won't, but given a choice between enhancing something for players who are exploring the woods near the ruins or running yet another "Oh my gods, the MacGuffin happened and I heard that this was the place adventurers gathered" sort of contrived plot piece... I'll go with the former.

The comparison to table-top PnP is a bit incorrect in that when I sit down with a weekly, regular tabletop group, I already know exactly what it is I'm planning and how it ties in with the rest of my plot. In Balder's Gate where we are currently running a regular weekly session with a regular player group, we always start in a Tavern with some Tavern RP

So the gripe is mostly about off-the-cuff spontaneous DMing and is simply an observation that it's easier to get something going for players who are willing to take the initiative than it is for players who are simply waiting. The former are also more interesting, honestly. But as many can tell you, we still come up with stuff for the latter.

This problem is exacerbated in TSM where the main city has this huge built in Deus Ex Machina that seems to hamstring DMs' ability to run stuff. Sitting in a Tavern in a City with Mythallar designed to keep adventure from happening is a huge drawback from the DMing perspective.

[Galadorn]

Categorizing it "all" as Tavern RP and making it seem "bad" is the problem. (I personally LIVE daily for "Tavern RP", but, such is my life...)

Who cares where it is. Play your character, and if you truly don't want to lead your PC into a tavern for whatever reason, and you can't find even the smallest reason to wander in, even to ask a question, refill your waterskin, hang your wet cloak near the hearth, get some travel rations, buy a sausage, eat some hot soup, look for work, growl at drunkards, ....and then leave right away if you want, at least to let whoever IS in there see you're "near by", ......then suck it up and hang out outside.

My PC hates it indoors (more now... and getting worse). As he develops into what he is becoming, eventually he will never ever go inside period (spoiler!). But, if people are online, and you are like me and would rather not send tells to find out exactly where everyone else is... then just...wander in, buy some water, warm up near a fire for a while, whatever... or just hang out outside...believe me, they always come out eventually.

Blind: I also do love the outdoor campfire RP as well. Outside Rivergate on Daggerdale server, NWN1, I must have spent literally RL YEARS RPing with Soipa and of course whoever else passed by... so many fantastic people walked by... Orcpaladin, Killthorne, Mizbiz, MShady, even frigging TRAIND... they all ended up walking by, and everyone...everyone stopped and had a chat.

As far as DMs go, just let them do it. I never change what my PC would be doing no matter who the hell is online. If you place yourself in your PC's shoes, then just play it. Others will pop in or walk by when your PC would see them.... and better than that, DMs will look for you eventually anyway. I play my PC as he is, ALL the time. When 10 people are online, and usually, when no one else is online at all. If you get used to it that way, then it becomes a natural feel for you. And it makes those "Tavern RP" sessions everyone seems to flame ...also just natural.

[oldgrayrogue]

Let me suggest that, at least on TSM, the static quests are intended to be used as a focal point around which to RP. Don't save them up to do when you are logged on alone, do them with a group. It gives you a reason to head out of the tavern in the city and explore the world -- i.e. adventure. Even the boring repeatable fed ex quests can be a great excuse to group up and RP: a slow walk on the OLM alone to deliver some caravan goods is a chore and a bore, but the same walk with a group with all of the associated RP, especially if some random encounters spawn, can make for an entertaining evening.

I do this all the time, and try to invite as many others along as I can. I can say that many times a DM has seen our little group on the way to complete a static and threw something at us ad hoc on the road to spice things up. Maybe its completely ad hoc, or maybe its a piece of the puzzle in some overarching global plot. The point is its easier to spawn a bandit/ villain/ demonic ritual that could end the world out away from civilization than in a well protected cosmopolitan center. Often when this happens we never even complete the static quest, but are usually in a position/location to do so the next time we log on with the same group usually. It brings groups together in ways different from pure social RP IMO. If the DM does not latch on to us, then we are still out on the road in a group exploring the world. Not as fun as DMage, but fun nonetheless.

So the same way others have encouraged those of us who prefer "adventuring" to try tavern style RP, or think of reasons to sit by the fireplace and chat, let me encourage the opposite. Even if it is IC for your PC to sit in a tavern and drink heavily planning the next conquest of the heart, bend a little and venture forth finding reasons to participate in D&D style adventure -- even when a DM is NOT logged on. Yes its risky, but where is the fun without a challenge?

[Audark]

As I've said before, I love tavern RP, I do tavern RP frequently, I prefer to be in the company of the other PCs no matter what.

However;

I do not like tavern RP to the exclusion of all else, if people want to sit in where it's safe and play house and have dinner parties, glorious, I may pop in from time to time, I may be associated with the characters involved, but that's not why I'm here.

I never speak for the exclusion of tavern room RP, I just often find that without DM action, it is often necessary for players to go out and cause some trouble, so they have something worth talking about back at ye olde tavern.

Interpersonal relationships may be intriguing, but I always want that played against the backdrop of glorious adventure in faerun, lest it simply become days of our lives with various sub-races intermingling.

[CloudDancing]

This problem is exacerbated in TSM where the main city has this huge built in Deus Ex Machina that seems to hamstring DMs' ability to run stuff. Sitting in a Tavern in a City with Mythallar designed to keep adventure from happening is a huge drawback from the DMing perspective.(from Jadyemoon)

Actually this is why I built new Quaervar as the canon town described in the manual with fortifications but still allowing for continued awesome Were/Malar battles.

I also had begun my own personal project to build Neseme and the Troll/Evermoors to expand a key sister town to Silverymoon but also present a town that was constantly under siege by crabby high-level trolls.

SO many times the even the players hit me with "*** *** **! the Mythal won't let you do that!" Even nonmagical Ninjas apparently suffer from it's effects. And of course the crackdown on crime and the removal of key unsavory elements like the removal/repression of the Theives Guild and the omission of some shadier joints, like the Dancing Goat brothel, require evil to happen on the fringes of Silverymoon and drive it out into the wilds.

Lol. What is a Dm to do? Or an evil character?

[NESchampion]

This problem is exacerbated in TSM where the main city has this huge built in Deus Ex Machina that seems to hamstring DMs' ability to run stuff. Sitting in a Tavern in a City with Mythallar designed to keep adventure from happening is a huge drawback from the DMing perspective.

While I agree things like well-protected cities can be problematic to stirring up trouble, for some characters it doesn't make a lot of sense to be hanging around on the outskirts of the wilderness each day either. A wizard in the Marches is almost obviously going to be centered around Silverymoon without a compelling reason to leave. In most cases I try to provide that compelling reason myself (like yesterday when I gathered up a few heads and made for a temple somewhere else on the server to visit) but sometimes it breaks character too much to suggest people drop an important inter-character discussion to go wandering simply because a DM just logged on. Is it disheartening to see that DM log off a few minutes later? Sure, but no communication went on between the two groups; the DM saw everyone in a tavern and decided they'd try again later, and the players have no clue what the DM is logging on for and didn't ask.

Lack of communication seems the main thing, and admittedly something all could work on. It doesn't take much effort for players to shoot a DM a tell when they log in explaining what's going on, or inform them that once the current conversation wraps up the player will try to get people on the road heading somewhere. The DM could even suggest a location and plan something to encounter on the way, or just tag along with them wherever the characters decide to go.

It's something I'll give a shot in the future. Speaking for myself a lot of the time when I see DMs log in I assume they have something preplanned for the night, and feel like it's selfish to suggest they DM me or my group, but I'll work on asking because there's no harm in that.

[JaydeMoon]

Well, just also keep in mind that (at least from me) being in a Tavern isn't the end all be all of, "Well, guess you're not getting DMed." Just pointing out that ad hoc is easier to do for those who are out doing than it is for those who aren't.

I'm pretty sure a lot of you have been involved in at least one ad hoc session from me that began in a Tavern.