A Land Far Away

In February, it was discovered that two PCs had grossly adjusted ability scores, equaling a total of 9 bonus ability points, something that equated a 42 point character build.

After some investigation, it was determined who the PCs belonged to.

Further, it was determined that in October, they informed a DM that they had +2 to the Cha, but did not disclose that they had an additional 7 points distributed amongst other abilities.

It was stated that there had been, several years ago, many ability point edits. Some up, some down.

It was further stated that, over time, the players did not bother to keep a close record of exactly what may have changed one way or another.

The players said that it was very possible that they had more points than the 2 they disclosed to the DM. However, that was their best answer at the time as they didn't think to analyze their ability points and went on what they believed, which was:

As of their last character rebuild, points had been restored to their original values and that since then they had each received +2 to their Charisma scores.

After reviewing the statements and gathering a wide variety of circumstantial evidence, DMA strongly believed that it was implausible for the players not to have somehow noticed that they had 7 additional ability points spread out between their six abilities. He felt that the players in question should have been able to realize that their PCs had been modifed from their 30 point builds.

Further, if one were to believe that, then one must assume that they then attempted to conceal this from the DM that they disclosed their ability point bonus to. That they lied to a DM.

The next step is that you determine that if they lied, they did it because they assumed that having those ability points was, for some reason, wrong or against the rules, whether letter or spirit, what have you.

From here, DMA held the opinion that those involved (the players and the DM who gave the points) conspired to grant the PCs an unfair advantage, outside of the bounds of ALFA's standards and that they lied to hide the fact.

PA took the DMA's opinion and considered it. PA's belief is that lying to a DM is a serious offense and might most certainly constitute a form of cheating.

It was the PA's decision to open the case up for formal dispute to consider whether or not those involved were lying.

In the PA's mind, there were several points to consider:

Were stat edits illegal?

Was having a total of +9 ability points illegal?

Did those involved feel that it was wrong?

Is it possible that they could have honestly not realized that they had +9 ability points?

There are perhaps more points worth considering, but those four seemed to be the most important. If the answer to any of those were yes, then a strong case could be made that the individuals lied. If the answers were 'No', then it would seem that purposefully lying would serve absolutely no purpose and therefore one could reasonably assume that they would not have lied.

The purpose of my dispute was to answer those questions and make a decision.

90-day rule, all alleged offenses occurred beyond the scope of the 90-day rule. Therefore Admin had to make a decision as to whether the offense could fall under a 4.2.2.

Now, the Admin were meant to vote on whether 'lying' in this case constituted 'cheating' and therefore censurable beyond 90-days.

I would like to point out that the Admin are not a body of people trained in handling legal proceedings. They are a group of people who are passionate about an amazing little hobbyist community.

So the Admin, as a body, decided to the best of their ability, and acting as their integrity and ethics dictated, what to do.

They opted not to pursue the case.

Are ability edits illegal?

Ability edits are not and never have been illegal. There has been a question as to whether they should be allowed and it was recently decided that they would be, and that they would be priced accordingly.


Would having a total of +9 ability points be illegal, or go beyond the spirit of ALFA and/or its standards?

This is a tougher question to answer. While nothing clearly prohibits granting +9 ability points to an individual, it is obviously inappropriate and I do not think a single member of ALFA would dispute that. It would, in fact, be nothing more than a DM twinking the player.

The DMA made the following analogy: Granting XP is clearly not illegal, but if a DM dropped 100,000 xp on an individual, unearned, then that would very definitely constitute cheating, something I feel we can all agree with.

However, this is not so simple. The analogy and the perceived inappropriateness assumes that all 9 points (or even a majority of those points) were granted at the same time, by a single individual.

A better analogy would be the difference between a DM simply giving a PC a +3 equivalent sword, a +3 AC Ring, a +5 equivalent set of armor, +3 AC boots, +5 Str gauntlets, +5 Constitution Belt, +5 Cha Cloak, Ring that casts a 6th lvl spell 1/day, and a spell resistance 14 shield all at once for no particular reason, vs a player receiving those same items over the course of several years of playing from multiple DMs.

If we assume that all 9 ability points were given at once then clearly there is something wrong. However, if the points were gained in ones and twos over a few years and granted by various DMs, it is far more difficult to find fault. ESPECIALLY considering that the time frame they must have been gained in was prior to any actual pricing out of standards.

+2 Str gauntlets are valued at 4000 gp.

It is beyond me, the PA, to understand why that same bonus of +2 is worth over 50K when it's a stat edit. I simply have to take the Standards team's word for it. So it is not hard for me to see that DMs, during a period of no formal training and no standards, might not have thought that a +1 here and a +2 there were all that earth shattering.

So, the answer is that: No, simply having +9 ability points is not an indication of wrongdoing. It is important to discern how, why, and when those points were received.

In this case, the points are stated to have been given in ones and twos over the course of time. We have absolutely no grounds with which to refute that.

Did those involved feel that it was wrong?

Reading the statements and opinions of those involved over the course of time (this is beyond the realm of dispute, but includes discussions in various threads about the issue of stat edits), it is apparent to me that they did not feel that there was anything wrong with having stat edits. While having a single stat raised excessively might be reason to wonder, 9 points along 6 abilities over several years seems hardly cause for concern (to those who are not acutely aware of various balance issues inherent in such bonuses).

When it was brought up to the individuals that they did indeed have 9 points as opposed to 2, the response was a prompt and rather casual acknowledgment that a mistake must have been made and that, 'No problem, just count it against the wealth, as it is supposed to be.'

Finally, perhaps one of the most important questions:

Is it possible that they could have honestly not realized that they had +9 ability points?

I am the Player Admin of ALFA, a leader in a roleplaying community that uses DnD as a basis for its ruleset.

My background is not PnP Dungeons and Dragons. I tried once, but just couldn't understand the rules to the satisfaction of certain other players and, within a few sessions, aggravation with nerdy rules-lawyers drove me away.

However, I do love Fantasy and I do love the idea of projecting myself into an alternate identity in a fantasy world. So when I was introduced to ALFA and the chance to do just that, without having to worry about the rules because computer software took care of that for me, I was thrilled.

Balance issues are beyond me and I do not pay overmuch attention to the numbers that make up my character. Generally, those stats are based on the recommendations of my peers in this community, based on what I explain to them I am looking for. They tell me what to put and I have faith that they won't steer me wrong.

What is the point? The point is that I could not tell you, without looking, what my PC's current stats are. And I further could not tell you, without getting out a calculator and hammering out the arithmetic, if any or all of my abilities are raised a point or two since I created my PC only half a year ago.

Therefore, it seems ENTIRELY POSSIBLE to me that an individual devoted to RP and in a respectable position might not be able to simply glance at their stats and realize that they have 9 additional ability points scattered among 6 abilities. It is entirely possible to me that four or five years after initially creating the PC, the individuals don't remember what the initial scores are. So long as your strong character stayed strong, fast character stayed fast, or smart character stayed smart, there might not be huge red flags brought about by subtle ability changes here and there over time.

I am willing to bet that there are more than a few people in ALFA that will tell you that they would not notice if someone jacked each ability point up by one, over time.

Some people (like myself) are just not as concerned about the exact numbers and more concerned with creating a dynamic persona through RP.

Even through a rebuild, if you simply aren't paying attention and trusting your DM to set you up properly, you might still not notice.

I know that some people, especially those who know the rules inside and out and expect others to as well, will feel that this is BS. Feel that way if you so choose; I am not a liar.

On one side we have those who feel strongly about an issue but have no actual proof to back up their claims, other than circumstantial issues that stem from their own perspective and knowledge. Statements that evince their confusion that someone could not have noticed ability score edits to the tune of 9 bonus points granted over time show that they are operating under the assumption that everyone knows what they know and has the same priorities that they do. This group feels that the other side is filled with people who are without integrity, values, and are willing to lie and behave dishonestly.

On the other we have those who feel that no wrong-doing was committed, that honest mistakes can be made, and that the burden of irrefutable proof lies on the accuser. This group feels that the other side is merely... mistaken.

FI wrote:Therefore, it seems ENTIRELY POSSIBLE to me that an individual devoted to RP and in a respectable position might not be able to simply glance at their stats and realize that they have 9 additional ability points scattered among 6 abilities.

Every DM I've spoken to is, shall we say, a tad puzzled by this, so perhaps you want to explain exactly why it is that lying to a DM is not cheating?

PA's belief is that lying to a DM is a serious offense and might most certainly constitute a form of cheating.

There's no way to explain this other than that these two thought that some ALFAns deserve special treatment; that some ALFAns should not have to follow the rules that ever other ALFAn has to follow.

Rusty wrote:Heh, Jaydincendi. Or is it FanaticusMoon?

Wynna wrote:

Rusty wrote:Heh, Jaydincendi. Or is it FanaticusMoon?

Rusty, your sly, insulting slights are out of line. I will issue a second infra strike and invalidate the member in good standing requirement for an Admin candidate unless you cease and apologize for defaming these two and insinuating that they are the same person or supporting each other blindly. They have both been nothing but polite and calm through this, and I do not appreciate sniping.