So one of the main issues with Speicalist wizards in NWN2 is that the barred schools are locked in place. Want to be a conjurer? That's fine but transmutation automatically becomes a barred school.
Well forcing which school is prohibited is ok since it means you don't have to pick two schools as per DnD. But what about Necromancy, Abjuration, and Evocation? Those schools are never given as optionally prohibited schools. Perhaps Obsidian couldn't imagine a wizard who wasn't interested in necromancy.
Either way I found a way to modify the schools so that each one can be barred. If this isn't making sense I'll put my changes in column form.
Specialist School - - - Prohibited School
Abjuration - - - - - - - - - - - Evocation
Conjuration - - - - - - - - - Transmutation
Divination - - - - - - - - - - - - Illusion
Enchantment - - - - - - - - - Necromancy
Evocation - - - - - - - - - - - Conjuration
Illusion - - - - - - - - - - - - - Enchantment
Necromancy - - - - - - - - - - Divination
Transmutation - - - - - - - - Abjuration
These could be switched around but the idea is that no one school is immune to being barred and no one school is barred more often than another.
It requires modification of the spellschool.2da and for descriptive text the dialog.tlk but that's it.
Would other members of the community like to see this for ALFA?
Specialist Wizard and Barred Schools
Moderator: ALFA Administrators
Specialist Wizard and Barred Schools
Last edited by Magonushi on Thu Jan 10, 2008 1:56 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Specialist Wizard and Barred Schools
As far as I can tell, Obsidian didn't change anything from NWN1 regarding how specialist wizards are handled, or what their schools of opposition are.Magonushi wrote:Well forcing which school is prohibited is ok since it means you don't have to pick two schools as per DnD. But what about Necromancy, Abjuration, and Evocation? Those schools are never given as optionally prohibited schools. Perhaps Obsidian couldn't imagine a wizard who wasn't interested in necromancy
One reason for Bioware/Obsidian's choices in these games could be the number of spells available in each school. That's something you should probably take into account if you reassign any schools. Since Abjuration contains the lion's share of protective magics and Evocation most of the offensive ones, I can understand a decision not to exclude these from anyone's spell list to avoid crippling a caster.
Consider that a limitation of the CRPG medium; insufficient resources to implement the vastly greater number of spells available in PnP.
Not to nitpick, but Abjuration is listed twice in your list, and Transmutation occurs twice as a prohibited school.
Oops, I messed up when scribing it here. Was in a rush so I'll go fix it now.
And I understand the concern about certain schools being essential, but not everyone has the same opinion about the schools. Likewise at ALFA we've been trying to include the spells which require a bit more involvement from the DM/player to be correctly translated into a computer game. This should allow the less valued schools like divination or transmutation to maybe gain a bit more of their original power and allow for any school to be prohibited without costing the wizard too much.
And I understand the concern about certain schools being essential, but not everyone has the same opinion about the schools. Likewise at ALFA we've been trying to include the spells which require a bit more involvement from the DM/player to be correctly translated into a computer game. This should allow the less valued schools like divination or transmutation to maybe gain a bit more of their original power and allow for any school to be prohibited without costing the wizard too much.
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Arkan Bladesinger
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AcadiusLost
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I'll weigh in with a tech perspective on this idea: the major limitation I see with it is in the inability to load haks during character creation, which is a frustration on many levels with the game. It's something OE is well aware that the PW wants, and they've said they'll look into it, but it's best not to hold our breaths on it.
Without haks loading at character creation, you're looking at having to use overrides for the 2da files, placed in the override directory before loading NWN2 to try to create your PC. Anyone playing a specialist mage who somehow missed this step would end up with a broken character. There is also the modification of Dialog.tlk to consider- as Mag points out, the edit to the dialog.tlk is the only way to let the player know, ingame, which school is barred for each specialty school. We could point it at the new custom tlk, but that doesn't load at character creation, either.
What's the problem with editing the Dialog.tlk, then? As a base game resource, the patching program for NWN2 needs to access dialog.tlk to make Original Campaign and other fixes (to typos, for example)- NWN2 is still getting updates with some frequency, and having altered base resources reportedly often causes unpredictable errors after patching. What's more, such a change would affect playing other singleplayer and multiplayer modules, other PWs, etc- as Dialog.tlk is referenced by the game at all times, rather than being module-specific (as a custom tlk and hak files are).
If a rebalance of the prohibited schools is something we decide we need for ALFA, we could still try to go the hak'd 2da and custom tlk route for this sort of a fix, but it would have to happen after a PC was already in the module- you'd roll up your specialist wizard with the default OE banned school, then be "switched" once inside- possibly also requiring the removal of any spells from the "proper" banned school that might have been inadvertently selected during character creation. You'd also lack the option to pick spells from the OE default banned school during creation, though theoretically we could try to run some kind of a spell trading dialog that fires once after you're in with your specialist, in much the same way we're looking to do for custom skill reassignment.
It's just a lot of work, for uncertain gain. I like the idea in principle- how many specialist mages did we end up having in NWN1-ALFA? Would more players have gravitated that way if we'd had the reassorted Banned Schools? Might be a good idea to discuss it at that level while we wade through the challenge of custom skills, which will be a change that paves the way for other customizations, and affects all PCs of every character class.
Without haks loading at character creation, you're looking at having to use overrides for the 2da files, placed in the override directory before loading NWN2 to try to create your PC. Anyone playing a specialist mage who somehow missed this step would end up with a broken character. There is also the modification of Dialog.tlk to consider- as Mag points out, the edit to the dialog.tlk is the only way to let the player know, ingame, which school is barred for each specialty school. We could point it at the new custom tlk, but that doesn't load at character creation, either.
What's the problem with editing the Dialog.tlk, then? As a base game resource, the patching program for NWN2 needs to access dialog.tlk to make Original Campaign and other fixes (to typos, for example)- NWN2 is still getting updates with some frequency, and having altered base resources reportedly often causes unpredictable errors after patching. What's more, such a change would affect playing other singleplayer and multiplayer modules, other PWs, etc- as Dialog.tlk is referenced by the game at all times, rather than being module-specific (as a custom tlk and hak files are).
If a rebalance of the prohibited schools is something we decide we need for ALFA, we could still try to go the hak'd 2da and custom tlk route for this sort of a fix, but it would have to happen after a PC was already in the module- you'd roll up your specialist wizard with the default OE banned school, then be "switched" once inside- possibly also requiring the removal of any spells from the "proper" banned school that might have been inadvertently selected during character creation. You'd also lack the option to pick spells from the OE default banned school during creation, though theoretically we could try to run some kind of a spell trading dialog that fires once after you're in with your specialist, in much the same way we're looking to do for custom skill reassignment.
It's just a lot of work, for uncertain gain. I like the idea in principle- how many specialist mages did we end up having in NWN1-ALFA? Would more players have gravitated that way if we'd had the reassorted Banned Schools? Might be a good idea to discuss it at that level while we wade through the challenge of custom skills, which will be a change that paves the way for other customizations, and affects all PCs of every character class.
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FanaticusIncendi
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While i agree that schools should all be treated equal, is there some actual basis as to why a Diviner can use necromancy and a Necromancer cannot use divination?Specialist School - - - Prohibited School
Abjuration - - - - - - - - - - - Evocation
Conjuration - - - - - - - - - Transmutation
Divination - - - - - - - - - - - - Illusion
Enchantment - - - - - - - - - Necromancy
Evocation - - - - - - - - - - - Conjuration
Illusion - - - - - - - - - - - - - Enchantment
Necromancy - - - - - - - - - - Divination
Transmutation - - - - - - - - Abjuration
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No reason why the associations would have to stay this way. I started out though trying to make as few changes as possible to the existing structure. It turned out to only be 3 changes to the original structure, but we could possibly change them all.
I'd suggest if you don't like the proposed structure, you should submit your own here.
I'd suggest if you don't like the proposed structure, you should submit your own here.
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Well, the bigger decision for a character should be which school they focus in, not which one they want denied. I figure picking your specialisation on basis of the barred school is, in most cases, hardly inspired by a role-playing decision (what fits the character concept). Yes, yes, there may be a case where it is, but still.
The importance of this is therefore quite low. After AL's viewpoint from a tech side, let me say that from the balancing side of things, this is not a can of worms I like to see opened - it would open up a wide window of discussing spell and school balancing due to NWNs CRPG nature and require a careful, multi-facetted consideration. For a gain that is, frankly, small, if we wanted to do it thoroughly, the work required would stand in no justifiable relation.
While I commend the initiative and thought, I don't see a pressing need.
The importance of this is therefore quite low. After AL's viewpoint from a tech side, let me say that from the balancing side of things, this is not a can of worms I like to see opened - it would open up a wide window of discussing spell and school balancing due to NWNs CRPG nature and require a careful, multi-facetted consideration. For a gain that is, frankly, small, if we wanted to do it thoroughly, the work required would stand in no justifiable relation.
While I commend the initiative and thought, I don't see a pressing need.
The power of concealment lies in revelation.
Oh i don't dislike the list you got there, it's just that i think most mages actually choose their prohibited school of spells rather than their specialisation and simply click on the least annoying "specialiation" for their concept. Once that choice is made, there is no further implication in the game...and in the end why not pick a specialisation?Magonushi wrote:No reason why the associations would have to stay this way. I started out though trying to make as few changes as possible to the existing structure. It turned out to only be 3 changes to the original structure, but we could possibly change them all.
I'd suggest if you don't like the proposed structure, you should submit your own here.
If schools of magic were really opposed...it would be a direct opposition to forbid users of a specialized school to use the opposed energy, if your concept would allow your character to use both, then you'd to be a generalist wizard.
Specialist School - - - Prohibited School
Abjuration - - - - - - - - - - - Evocation
Conjuration - - - - - - - - - Transmutation
Divination - - - - - - - - - - - - Illusion
Enchantment - - - - - - - - - Necromancy
Evocation - - - - - - - - - - - Abjuration
Illusion - - - - - - - - - - - - - Divination
Necromancy - - - - - - - - - - Enchantement
Transmutation - - - - - - - - Conjuration
These were made pretty much randomly ( i am not a FR magic school expert), but at least the implications of your choice would transfer into the game (to some extent...maybe a rivalry between the wizards of each school?). Right now, the whole prohibited school thing only seems like an admnistrative "balancing" factor to the bonus of picking up a specialisation.
Jayde Moon: if you wish to discuss tieflings and their powergaming issues, then i suggest you do so in their own thread.
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JaydeMoon
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It was a joke, Souvarine, don't get your undies in a bunch, I'm actually FOR Tieflings. And I think it's a big enough issue that it bears mention in every thread. 
That was ANOTHER joke. Hard to recognize in these here forums apprently, those jokes, jests, and good-natured jibes, even with smileys and literally pointing out that one is kidding .
Veilan brings up an good point in that many specializations may be taken with a consideration to what they prohibit rather than what they actually specialize in.
Didn't 2d Ed schools each have an opposite and specializing in one simply negated that opposite, I don't quite recall? Is the idea here to bring things back in line then with 2d Ed?
If so, maybe a look at why it was changed in 3.0/3.5? Perhaps simply to make it different so we'd buy the books, but perhaps there were some actual balance issues.
That was ANOTHER joke. Hard to recognize in these here forums apprently, those jokes, jests, and good-natured jibes, even with smileys and literally pointing out that one is kidding .
Veilan brings up an good point in that many specializations may be taken with a consideration to what they prohibit rather than what they actually specialize in.
Didn't 2d Ed schools each have an opposite and specializing in one simply negated that opposite, I don't quite recall? Is the idea here to bring things back in line then with 2d Ed?
If so, maybe a look at why it was changed in 3.0/3.5? Perhaps simply to make it different so we'd buy the books, but perhaps there were some actual balance issues.
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AcadiusLost
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As an addendum to the tech perspective- currently, the only way I can see this "working" for ALFA's haks, is if it is a switch that happens when a specialist mage enters the module, after character creation- meaning, among other things, that their prohibited school won't be what they expected it to be during creation, unless they researched it beforehand via forums, or some kind of ALFA Players Manual for NWN2. This strikes me as fairly frustrating for the player (and a bit of a pain to code, to go back in and re-assort their spells).
It's possible the 2E charts could be used to match up opposing schools, though with a fairly different spell selection (3.5E CRPG vs. 2E PnP), it'd be more a thematic decision than anything grounded in game balance.
It's possible the 2E charts could be used to match up opposing schools, though with a fairly different spell selection (3.5E CRPG vs. 2E PnP), it'd be more a thematic decision than anything grounded in game balance.