Time in ALFA - Spells

[I-KP]

Not playing a Caster in DnD has always been the sub-optimal choice.

[Brokenbone]

Protection from Alignment is one of those level 1 spells that I'd think everyone relies on, high or low. Magic Weapon is also relied on a good deal when at a stage where "not worth buying a +1 weapon, but for the next few IG hours, I'm buffed up good"... both those could end up RL minute/level. Sure, the big boy versions of those spells like Magic Circle vs. Alignment or Greater Magic Weapon are "hourlies", but people may think twice about what the best use of their 3rd / 4th slots are, compared to the no brainer of PfA in a level 1 slot being great for hours and hours, personal range.

Magic Weapon: Minutes per level. Not hours, which is the discussion.
Protection from Alignment: Being changed to its proper duration, as has been stated multiple times.
Magic Circle Against Alignment: Also having its duration reduced to the proper one, as has been stated.

I wasn't disagreeing with this? I was pointing out that some old standby's are apparently going to be reduced in power, though I did make a mistake with Magic Circle, it's hourly now and will be 10 min blocks later. Part of a package deal, not just the unambiguously "power increasing" extension of hours, some things incorrectly down as hourly would be reduced as part of the deal I guess.

Does anyone argue that expanding hours actually creates a power DECREASE among casters? Haven't seen it. Agree it's an increase and then it's "so, here's the reasons an increase is a good idea for balance (assuming certain things happen to other spells or module design or DM flexibility about resting or whatever)."

[kid]

Lets just ban fighters and rogues and be done with it.

[jmecha]

I like Rogues.

[kid]

Its why you constantly die you mook.

[Ithildur]

Claiming that hour/lvl spells lasting longer is a power increase may be true, in the same way that if our rules currently had fighters getting d6 for their HD and then we went 'hey, that doesn't make sense, let's make them d10' would be a power increase.

Let's break this down:

Rnd/lvl spells are extremely powerful and meant to last one encounter (some unusual situations might mean they last two encounter at very high lvls). ICly, that's what usually happens; it usually doesn't make sense for them to last longer than one battle. These are fine as they are currently most of the time.

Minute/lvl spells are usually meant to last a handful of encounters at most (usually far less, often just one if there's any searching or planning going on, etc). ICly, we usually do ok with these; sure, our planning/banter/skillchecks take far longer usually than they should ICly (which effectively speeds up time), but it's tolerable. Honestly, I've seen very little use of say the animal buffs in ALFA2 because of the fact by the time the banter/planning/skillchecks are rolled, these are gone. But as long as they last enough for one or two fights, it's tolerable.

10min/lvl spells vary in power; a few are quite useful or powerful, but a lot of them are disproportionately desirable in ALFA largely because of the fact that these currently are the longest lasting spells for us, which is one of those silly things we've learned to live with for so long and gotten used to being silly about (the sillypart being that we nerfed hour/lvl spells to last shorter than 10 minutes). By mid lvls these spells are already supposed to last over an hour; what does that mean? It means they're extremely useful for an extended period of time/over multiple encounters in a dungeon situation, good enough so you don't have to get too antsy when time suddenly 'speeds up' during skillchecks/dialog, but not so much when overland travel or any significant passage of time is involved. If we use these with some self restraint and avoid casting them before starting overland/long distance travel, they're fine.

Hour (or hours)/lvl spells: there's far fewer of these spells than any of the other categories, especially once we fix durations to match 3.5e. These are by design intended to last a significant part of an adventuring day; by midlvls and above you're talking about long enough to cover an entire day's worth of marching/overland travel, or if cast once you arrive at a dungeon, long enough to last until it's time to rest. Extended castings by high lvl casters should last an entire day. That's how they're meant to work.

It does not make sense either mechanically/rules/balance-wise or ICly that hr/lvl spells expire after one or two encounters or after searching/skillchecking a couple of rooms, when they're supposed to last all day.

As for the arguments for making 10 min spells shorter... I seriously doubt anyone thinks hour/lvl spells should last 60 minutes/lvl, or even 30 min/lvl. It's good enough simply that hour/lvl spells aren't silly short that they expire in a fraction of the time they're supposed to, and it's good enough if sometimes 10min/lvl spells last a little longer than they should if used with restraint per above. Fact is time sometimes speeds up (dialog, planning, skillchecks, descriptions, etc) and sometimes slows down (overland travel, etc), but most of the time when spell durations are an issue it's within dungeons, i.e. the former is far more of an issue than the latter.

[kid]

Again, its very interesting how we only cahnge things that give our toons more power.

In an ALFA game you are not logged longer than 2-5 hours usualy. This is not a session where time can fly suddently while travlign and such.

The argument of lets make this be the same as PnP doesnt allways work.
But fine, if you want to match it to PnP then do it in other things as well.

Not just the things that give a power boost to our allready most powerful classes.

Jeez.

[Ithildur]

Again, its very interesting how we only cahnge things that give our toons more power.

Belive it or not some of us are not interested in simply 'changing things that give our toons more power'.

Can't stand max PC HPs, for one; plenty of other nerfs I would support (and I have done so, including being one of the first to call for nerfing NWN2 Mage Armor and Shield spells). Also, did you not read the part about nerfing incorrect hour/lvl spells to shorter durations?

[SwordSaintMusashi]

Again, its very interesting how we only cahnge things that give our toons more power.

In an ALFA game you are not logged longer than 2-5 hours usualy. This is not a session where time can fly suddently while travlign and such.

The argument of lets make this be the same as PnP doesnt allways work.
But fine, if you want to match it to PnP then do it in other things as well.

Not just the things that give a power boost to our allready most powerful classes.

Jeez.

Also interesting how the same people use the same arguments for things they do not like or understand fully.

As a non caster, I support increased spell time. As do it seems 85% of our active community.

Stop trying to make it sound like its a giant conspiracy.

[FoamBats4All]

Again, its very interesting how we only cahnge things that give our toons more power.

In an ALFA game you are not logged longer than 2-5 hours usualy. This is not a session where time can fly suddently while travlign and such.

The argument of lets make this be the same as PnP doesnt allways work.
But fine, if you want to match it to PnP then do it in other things as well.

Not just the things that give a power boost to our allready most powerful classes.

Jeez.

Also interesting how the same people use the same arguments for things they do not like or understand fully.

As a non caster, I support increased spell time. As do it seems 85% of our active community.

Stop trying to make it sound like its a giant conspiracy.

[kid]

And as a caster I do not support it. whats the point?

We are working in order to give our most powerful classes more power...
How the hell does this make sense?

[And no, no conspiracy, just human nature. Never heard anyone going... Oh, my class is far more powerful than it should be, please tone it down so it would be more up to par with other classes... just the way it is.
But when it comes to changing our game system i expect more responsiblity than that and the ability to look beyond that.
Either way, you work on your own agenda, i'll work on mine. We dont have to agree. The fact that we dont agree doesnt make the other side evil. Other than Foam that is. He's pure devil.]

[Ithildur]

In all honestly... having watched folks like Keren, Laniara, Maeredhel, etc. and playing Aglaril, it might increase the power of ONE spell these folks cast with any regularity... MAYBE (two if you count SS's nerf being a slight increase due to, again, the current silly 7 minute hour). I mean, seriously, have you actually looked at the proper hr/lvl spell list vs the current ones that will be nerfed?

Regardless, people with access to magic in DnD have always been able to do, well, magical things. At lower lvls, guys like fighters tend to shine, and shine longer (especially if caster friends are smart enough to heal/buff them). At higher lvls, there are moments where the high level caster says "Swords are of no more use here; fly you fools!" to the high level warrior.

There are other games and genre's out there certainly, nothing wrong with any of them... some lower magic, some higher, technology driven, goth punk, etc. We play a moderate magic version of FR/DnD; there's no reason to houserule that the small number of spells that are clearly meant to last a long time expire so quickly.

[oldgrayrogue]

Level 4-5 is currently attainable in ALFA with little to no risk and very quickly. "Low level disadvantages" for casters are basically non-existant for players who play to risk avoidance at lower levels. I would contend that armored casters have no disadvantages at all, relative to other classes, regardless of level. This change clearly boosts the power level of current, and future, caster classes from what currently exists. Such a change potentially affects game balance, and it is perfectly legitimate to raise that issue when discussing the proposed change.

Most of those who participated in the poll voted in favor of it. I voted in favor of it. But I don't think it can be denied that the change will result in a power boost to what are already the most powerful classes, especially at higher levels.

[Ithildur]

[edit: ugh, major sidetrackage/off topic]

Again, actually examining both the mechanics and (reduced) number of hour/lvl spells is helpful.

[FoamBats4All]

Current hour/level spells in ALFA:

• Animate Dead
• Barkskin
• Charm Person
• Control Undead
• Create Undead
• Death Ward
• Enervation
• False Life
• Light
• Low Light Vision
• Mage Armor
• Mage Armor, Improved
• Magic Circle Against Alignment
• Magic Vestment
• Magic Weapon
• Magic Weapon, Greater
• Owl's Insight
• Premonition
• Protection from Alignment
• Protection from Arrows
• Shield Other
• Spike Growth
• Stoneskin
• Stoneskin, Greater

Legend:
Nerf from 1 hour/level (NWN2) to 10 minutes/level (SRD).
Nerf from 1 hour/level (NWN2) to 1 minute/level (SRD).

- - - - -

There is also Protection from Elements, which would get nerfed to 10 minutes/level, from 24 hours.

- - - - -

Current spells that would become hour/level:

• Greater Magic Fang

Legend:
Buff from 1 minute/level (NWN2) to 1 hour/level (SRD).