+1Danubus wrote:Its whats killed ALFA for years. Stupid nonsense like this.
I am saying goodbye to ALFA
Moderator: ALFA Administrators
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Hialmar
- Fionn In Disguise
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I am the one who set TSM to Beta 3 because Rick told me it was in Beta 3.
In fact, I already set that two days ago and Rusty told me that it was still in Beta 1 for a standard detail so I reversed the change.
When Rick asked me to put TSM back to Beta 3 I thought that the matter was solved.
Now I'm about to post an official recall for Rusty.
I just want to hear what he has to say about all this sh*t.
Then I'll make my decision.
Of course I'll have to hurry because I suppose that if I wait too much someone else will beat me to this...
Edit: done: http://www.alandfaraway.org/phpbbforum/ ... hp?t=38708
In fact, I already set that two days ago and Rusty told me that it was still in Beta 1 for a standard detail so I reversed the change.
When Rick asked me to put TSM back to Beta 3 I thought that the matter was solved.
Now I'm about to post an official recall for Rusty.
I just want to hear what he has to say about all this sh*t.
Then I'll make my decision.
Of course I'll have to hurry because I suppose that if I wait too much someone else will beat me to this...
Edit: done: http://www.alandfaraway.org/phpbbforum/ ... hp?t=38708
In August 2007, I appointed a number of our core NWN2 Builders to a generic 'NWN2 DM' status. This was done to give them the voting rights I felt were appropriate for their contributions, without creating the situations ALFA had experienced previously with large numbers of inactive 'Beta DMs'. I posted about it in the Admin Only forum, a post which has been moved to the publicly-viewable Admin forum, as the Charter technically seems to require a HDM to jointly appoint DMs. That the intent of this act was to provide the opportunity for representation to core NWN2 builders can be seen from the fact that those builders who already had DM-level (or higher) voting rights were not appointed Builder DMs - AcadiusLost and darrenhfx (both Staff Heads) and Wynna (Administrator). The individuals granted voting rights in this manner included indio, Marklos, Rick7475, teric, and Thangs. Again, the fact that this relates to building and not any specific server can be seen from the manner in which it is presented on the DM List. Anybody who has raised the question of NWN2 DMs with me will have had this structure explained to them.
With regard to applying to be a DM, this is required of everyone who wishes to DM in ALFA. Clearly, applications from known ALFAns who have previously DMd are a lot easier to assess than from new members, but that does not mean an application is not important, for a number of reasons:
With regard to the particular facts, Rick was under the impression that he did not need to apply to be a DM. This was an unfortunate misunderstanding, certainly, but hardly an insurmountable one. The situation was clarified, and, after several days of rather circular complaints, Rick sent in a DM application. I posted this into the DM Application forum at 11:50 on Thursday, while having a (very) early lunch. I read it fully when I returned home that evening, and at 18:12 on Thursday I sent him the PM he has been kind enough to reproduce in his original post. I'll repeat it again, nonetheless, in the interests of clarity.
And the specific "charges":
This whole debacle is increasingly absurd. Rick could have sent in a DM Application weeks ago, and likely would have been approved and we would be focussing on Live. He could have sent it in any time in the past week, instead of arguing about whether he had to apply or not; again, he would likely have been approved and we would be focussing on Live. Then - he finally did send one in. And then withdrew it, less than two hours after I had read it.
With regard to applying to be a DM, this is required of everyone who wishes to DM in ALFA. Clearly, applications from known ALFAns who have previously DMd are a lot easier to assess than from new members, but that does not mean an application is not important, for a number of reasons:
- Firstly, having DMd at some point in the past on a NWN1 server does not guarantee immediate acceptance as a NWN2 DM;
Secondly, I do not think it is a good idea having different rules for different ALFAns;
Thirdly, I stated during the course of the recent election that this would be the case and was elected;
Fourthly, ALFA desperately needs to have a DM training process in place and the application process is a way to formalise this;
Fifthly, the willingness of an individual to engage with the process serves as some kind of indication of their willingess to engage on a broader level with the demands of the community.
With regard to the particular facts, Rick was under the impression that he did not need to apply to be a DM. This was an unfortunate misunderstanding, certainly, but hardly an insurmountable one. The situation was clarified, and, after several days of rather circular complaints, Rick sent in a DM application. I posted this into the DM Application forum at 11:50 on Thursday, while having a (very) early lunch. I read it fully when I returned home that evening, and at 18:12 on Thursday I sent him the PM he has been kind enough to reproduce in his original post. I'll repeat it again, nonetheless, in the interests of clarity.
Rick's response to this PM? This thread.Hi Rick
I copied your PM into the DM Application forum this morning. And, of course, TSM is not in Beta Three, but still in Beta One.
Before approving you as a DM, I want to address a few issues.
Firstly, I'd like you to comment on this definition of the HDM's role from the current draft ALFA DMG.
HDMs are the stewards of servers, entrusted by ALFA with the responsibility for their administration. Ultimately, HDM have the ability to shape servers in their own image, while operating within the broader context of ALFA; they have either discretion or influence over their team members and server design and content. This is a demanding and rewarding role, for HDMs will find that a significant amount of their time is spent on matters of management, be it supervising plot developments, overseeing PDM training, or resolving disputes. HDMs are entitled to vote in all Administrator elections. HDMs also have a special responsibility for approving exceptional PCs, for upholding the principles of the ALFA Charter, and scrutinising any proposed changes. The DM Administrator, to whom they are accountable for their server and DM team, appoints HDMs.
Are you comfortable with this definition?
Secondly, it is also clearly necessary to consider the causes of recent tension. I have and will always maintain that simple, standardised procedures are the key to solving a great deal of the problems experienced by ALFA during it's NWN1 incarnation, for players and DMs. And as DMA I have and will always work to put them in place. As I have been elected DMA three consecutive times, it appears to be the case that most of ALFA's DMs agree with me. Now, our NWN2 incarnation is, both due to the technical demands and for philosophical reasons, going to be considerably more centralised than that of NWN1. Servers will be less individual domains subject to a HDM, and more areas of delegated control, operating within an overall framework. I expect all DMs to co-operate with each other, including between server teams, and I expect all HDMs to work with both each other and myself in making sure that, behind the DM screen, ALFA operates as smoothly as possible. I welcome all debate about DM policy - but I will not have DMs engaging in the kind of internecine feuds that characterised much of NWN1.
I am not interested in raking over the past, but we must both understand that, going forwards, our goal has to be co-operation, and not conflict. If you have a particular issue you wish to raise with me, then please do so, as soon as it arises, so that we can discuss how to resolve it. There is no need to engage in forum warfare to solve disputes, and I will not tolerate ALFA DMs doing so.
So - I see no reason why you cannot lead a NWN2 TSM DM team into a bright and successful future, but I think it is essential that we are both aware of each other's feelings and concerns before they develop into full-blown disagreement. ALFA will gain nothing from having a divided DM corps - and I see no reason why we cannot unite, and now.
Regards
Rusty
And the specific "charges":
There is not a single instance where I have broken any promise made to Rick, and Rick misunderstanding the nature of Builder DMs does not make me a liar.1. The DMA made promises to me which he broke, which makes him a liar, and he has no tolerance for players that lie to DM's, yet, it is OK for him to lie.
Again, there is nothing in these facts that can support this statement. If one wanted to be fussy, one might think that Rick unilaterally declaring that TSM was in Beta [whatever] when the actual guidelines unequivocally state that it is DMA who makes that call, suggests rather the opposite.2. The DMA does not follow procedure and standards for bringing a server through the beta stages.
Again, what are these supposed to be? Considering the lengths to which I and my Staff have gone to set out procedures as clearly as possible, and as long in advance before they are needed as possible, this is a little odd, to say the least.3. He makes up the rules as he goes along.
This whole debacle is increasingly absurd. Rick could have sent in a DM Application weeks ago, and likely would have been approved and we would be focussing on Live. He could have sent it in any time in the past week, instead of arguing about whether he had to apply or not; again, he would likely have been approved and we would be focussing on Live. Then - he finally did send one in. And then withdrew it, less than two hours after I had read it.
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fluffmonster
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No, the most absurd part of this is demanding *another* app from long-time DMs to DM in NWN2 because of the misguided notion that doing will result in better adherence to standards (the only part of the app at all related to standards is one yes/no question...hardly a convincing demonstration). It would be no less sensible and much more to the point of the bended knee to demand they come clean your toilet as proof of their dedication to standards. Proposed alternative demonstrations of committment to standards, such as a contract to be signed by the DMs, were not even considered. You unwaveringly demanded the most demeaning path, and here we are. Good job.
Yeah, shame on me for fulfilling an election pledge.
If applying to DM genuinely was demeaning, then why is it that so many other ALFAns have done so, quite happily, and without complaint? Right: it isn't demeaning.
And what's better? We have one simple, fair system for every ALFAn; or a whole different set of rules for different people depending on who they are?
Thing is, Rick applied to DM - he just didn't wait for an answer. Nothing I could or can do about that.
If applying to DM genuinely was demeaning, then why is it that so many other ALFAns have done so, quite happily, and without complaint? Right: it isn't demeaning.
And what's better? We have one simple, fair system for every ALFAn; or a whole different set of rules for different people depending on who they are?
Thing is, Rick applied to DM - he just didn't wait for an answer. Nothing I could or can do about that.
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Hialmar
- Fionn In Disguise
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Rusty, do you really think someone who has read the above sentence is going to talk with you or just quit ?There is no need to engage in forum warfare to solve disputes, and I will not tolerate ALFA DMs doing so.
This sir is an insult. You are not Rick's or any other DM boss.
You are just one ALFAn like any other.
Being elected 3 times makes no difference to that.
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oldgrayrogue
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Rusty, you have, however you see it, burnt all your bridges with folks here now. Your going to be recalled and if not then a load of people are going to leave in protest. If you give a damn about this place and not just your position in ALFA then I think it would be best if you just step down. You have gone over the line and people have had enough. I have seen folks who hardly ever speak a word derogatory about anyone speak up against you. You need to just step down and go your merry way for the betterment of the project. If this process wasnt in place right now Im betting a lot of people would just automatically kick you from the Admin right now.
Enough is enough.
Enough is enough.
Currently Playing: World of Warcraft.
Follow me on Twitter as: Danubus
Follow me on Twitter as: Danubus
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fluffmonster
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The only dispute resolution you offer, sir, is your way or the highway. Given such a stark choice, it should not be surprising that some might choose the latter.
Further, if this was only a matter of whether Rick and co. were willing to follow standards or not he would not have left. He is not opposed to following standards. No DMs left here are opposed to following standards. What he has left over is the demeaning manner in which you demand not only adherence to standards, but demonstrations of submission as well.
This is a pattern of yours where reasonable goals are pursued in unnecessarily divisive, confrontational, and inflexible ways, almost as if they were designed to drive out anyone who does not immediately submit. In this case, adherence to standards is fine...requiring abject humiliation in the process is just dumb ("Here, kiss my toe to prove your faith...it won't hurt and it'll be over soon, it doesn't matter that much, just do it"). In the case with you and Mikayla, it is not a big deal to bring a PCs wealth into line with standards. It is not unreasonable. What was ridiculous is putting the players through an inquisition, branding them liars and attempting to have them banned, apparently mostly because you don't like them.
It is unfortunate that you have taken the community's desire for firmness on standards as an excuse to bully people.
Further, if this was only a matter of whether Rick and co. were willing to follow standards or not he would not have left. He is not opposed to following standards. No DMs left here are opposed to following standards. What he has left over is the demeaning manner in which you demand not only adherence to standards, but demonstrations of submission as well.
This is a pattern of yours where reasonable goals are pursued in unnecessarily divisive, confrontational, and inflexible ways, almost as if they were designed to drive out anyone who does not immediately submit. In this case, adherence to standards is fine...requiring abject humiliation in the process is just dumb ("Here, kiss my toe to prove your faith...it won't hurt and it'll be over soon, it doesn't matter that much, just do it"). In the case with you and Mikayla, it is not a big deal to bring a PCs wealth into line with standards. It is not unreasonable. What was ridiculous is putting the players through an inquisition, branding them liars and attempting to have them banned, apparently mostly because you don't like them.
It is unfortunate that you have taken the community's desire for firmness on standards as an excuse to bully people.
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Nalo Jade
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I am glad for the Fluffs post.
I have been a big advocate for uniformity and the destruction of the "ALFA Confederacy" for a long time. I see the island servers as the biggest element of division and a break in continuity that detracts from the immersion of the project.
And if not for Fluff's post I would have been swayed in favor of Rusty, sorry Rick. I would have thought "geez Rick give this guy a break he is just trying to maintain uniformity."
And that is a noble pursuit, however as a leader in a democratic community his tools should be tactful, firm sure but TACT / RESPECT are very important.
Rusty, your ambition may have clouded your judgement here. I think what you are trying to accomplish is important, I don't find filling out a DM app to be insulting...however the manner in which you responded was insulting.
Maybe Rusty needs to take a break, breathe and refocus. Rick I am sure you can understand the passion that is involved for you as well.
Passion is a great thing, but can be a painful thing as well.
Rusty a public admission to your errors, and a commitment to improve your tact and tone would go a long way in my book... so in order to show all of us that you are truly committed to changing I would like you to copy the following format and sign it publically...
I, Rusty ALFA DMA,
Do hearby admit to being a bit wrapped up in my own passions and desires to keep ALFA uniform. I should have handled the situation better. I will work on my people skills. Rick in my opinion was resisting my requirements as DMA...I could have found kindler and gentler ways to help him. I will from this day forward committ to having the mentality that I am a mentor and servant of the people not a dictator or a policing agent. Rick I formally apologize for my insulting tone, and hope we can work together. Rick please understand that I am trying to do a good job and want everything to be in its place so at times I may seem a bit nazi-ish about the rules, but my intentions are good, I fear that if I do not keep things in line that want happened in ALFA 1 will repeat itself. Rick I am kissing your toe, because I submit to you, we need you bud...however I need you to work with me as well, not toe kissing but you do have to respect my position and authority...I would respect and adhere to you when/if you are elected the DMA in the future.
-Signed your DMA Servant Mentor, all around good chap, bigones be bigones and all that jazz.
-Rusty
(Thanks in advance Rusty for your public submission to those who elected you. please kiss my toe as well for helping you see the light while your head was inserted into your posterior...)
Rick ... take a breather man, you have handled much worse, he could be making you go through tons of logs because you have a powergaming server since you always have players on your server ... so they must be powergaming ... not because Daggerford had consistent DM interaction and was an all around fun place to be
Peace ALFA
I have been a big advocate for uniformity and the destruction of the "ALFA Confederacy" for a long time. I see the island servers as the biggest element of division and a break in continuity that detracts from the immersion of the project.
And if not for Fluff's post I would have been swayed in favor of Rusty, sorry Rick. I would have thought "geez Rick give this guy a break he is just trying to maintain uniformity."
And that is a noble pursuit, however as a leader in a democratic community his tools should be tactful, firm sure but TACT / RESPECT are very important.
Rusty, your ambition may have clouded your judgement here. I think what you are trying to accomplish is important, I don't find filling out a DM app to be insulting...however the manner in which you responded was insulting.
Maybe Rusty needs to take a break, breathe and refocus. Rick I am sure you can understand the passion that is involved for you as well.
Passion is a great thing, but can be a painful thing as well.
Rusty a public admission to your errors, and a commitment to improve your tact and tone would go a long way in my book... so in order to show all of us that you are truly committed to changing I would like you to copy the following format and sign it publically...
I, Rusty ALFA DMA,
Do hearby admit to being a bit wrapped up in my own passions and desires to keep ALFA uniform. I should have handled the situation better. I will work on my people skills. Rick in my opinion was resisting my requirements as DMA...I could have found kindler and gentler ways to help him. I will from this day forward committ to having the mentality that I am a mentor and servant of the people not a dictator or a policing agent. Rick I formally apologize for my insulting tone, and hope we can work together. Rick please understand that I am trying to do a good job and want everything to be in its place so at times I may seem a bit nazi-ish about the rules, but my intentions are good, I fear that if I do not keep things in line that want happened in ALFA 1 will repeat itself. Rick I am kissing your toe, because I submit to you, we need you bud...however I need you to work with me as well, not toe kissing but you do have to respect my position and authority...I would respect and adhere to you when/if you are elected the DMA in the future.
-Signed your DMA Servant Mentor, all around good chap, bigones be bigones and all that jazz.
-Rusty
(Thanks in advance Rusty for your public submission to those who elected you. please kiss my toe as well for helping you see the light while your head was inserted into your posterior...)
Rick ... take a breather man, you have handled much worse, he could be making you go through tons of logs because you have a powergaming server since you always have players on your server ... so they must be powergaming ... not because Daggerford had consistent DM interaction and was an all around fun place to be
Peace ALFA
"The reasonable man adapts to fit the world. The unreasonable man adapts the world to suit him. Therefore all progress is achieved by the unreasonable." - unknown
removed self from forums, contact via E-mail. Adios.
removed self from forums, contact via E-mail. Adios.
I don't like Rusty as a DM, no secret there, but think he has done a sterlign job as DMA.
He now appears to be doing exactly what he said he would do when elected. I don't see how this translates into "you are going to get recalled" just because 1 person decides that if he doesn't get preferential treatment he will quit.
It wasn't the DMA who publicly burnt bridges by creating this thread, after all.
He now appears to be doing exactly what he said he would do when elected. I don't see how this translates into "you are going to get recalled" just because 1 person decides that if he doesn't get preferential treatment he will quit.
It wasn't the DMA who publicly burnt bridges by creating this thread, after all.
*** ANON: has joined #channel
ANON: Mod you have to be one of the dumbest f**ks ive ever met
MOD: hows that ?
ANON: read what I said
ANON: You feel you can ban someone on a whim
MOD: i can, watch this
ANON: its so stupid how much power you think you have
ANON: Mod you have to be one of the dumbest f**ks ive ever met
MOD: hows that ?
ANON: read what I said
ANON: You feel you can ban someone on a whim
MOD: i can, watch this
ANON: its so stupid how much power you think you have
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Nalo Jade
- Githyanki
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yes...but
Leadership is not that simple. A good leader always assumes responsibility for failures. His stance is that it is Ricks fault.
Other "leaders" have done just what they said they were going to do...and did but its also "how" they get it done that is very critical.
Blaming is the path to destruction. There is no question that Rick and Rusty should have worked this out quietly and moved forward.
Both are obviously passionate about what they are doing, and a conflict arrose...and they were collectively unable to resolve it. Rick has chosen to leave, and publically blame Rusty for his departure...I love ya Rick but that was a poor decision imo.
Rusty I don't know, but I hold that his response in this thread lacked professionalism. He blamed Rick and round and round we go...The ultimate example of both their leadership would be shown by them being able to come together and move forward from what seems an impossible divsion.
Both will have to apologize for this thread, which in itself takes big brass coconuts.
And then be able to hash out their differences, privately, and come back to publically say we have built a bridge.
But I put most of the owness on the DMA because of his position. He needs to be held to a higher standard. Rick is not usually like this so I grant him some "human" lee-way.
3 options
They work it out <This would show unparralled character for both of them>
Rusty steps down or is recalled < This sets a precedent that scares me, and weakens the DMA position>
Rick leaves <This makes me sad>
I vote that we put them in a small room and tell them they cannot come out until things are resolved...it works for cats...
Leadership is not that simple. A good leader always assumes responsibility for failures. His stance is that it is Ricks fault.
Other "leaders" have done just what they said they were going to do...and did but its also "how" they get it done that is very critical.
Blaming is the path to destruction. There is no question that Rick and Rusty should have worked this out quietly and moved forward.
Both are obviously passionate about what they are doing, and a conflict arrose...and they were collectively unable to resolve it. Rick has chosen to leave, and publically blame Rusty for his departure...I love ya Rick but that was a poor decision imo.
Rusty I don't know, but I hold that his response in this thread lacked professionalism. He blamed Rick and round and round we go...The ultimate example of both their leadership would be shown by them being able to come together and move forward from what seems an impossible divsion.
Both will have to apologize for this thread, which in itself takes big brass coconuts.
And then be able to hash out their differences, privately, and come back to publically say we have built a bridge.
But I put most of the owness on the DMA because of his position. He needs to be held to a higher standard. Rick is not usually like this so I grant him some "human" lee-way.
3 options
They work it out <This would show unparralled character for both of them>
Rusty steps down or is recalled < This sets a precedent that scares me, and weakens the DMA position>
Rick leaves <This makes me sad>
I vote that we put them in a small room and tell them they cannot come out until things are resolved...it works for cats...
"The reasonable man adapts to fit the world. The unreasonable man adapts the world to suit him. Therefore all progress is achieved by the unreasonable." - unknown
removed self from forums, contact via E-mail. Adios.
removed self from forums, contact via E-mail. Adios.
You think this crap could be handled in a more professional way instead of plastering it all over these forums. Ill think twice in sending off PM's or chatting in IRC, if you people save them on your hard drives to drudge it up for later use. Rusty is a cantankerous ass, but he received a large majority of the votes from the DM corps. People hate working for a majority of their bosses RL. The reason being they make you do things best for the company you work in, not what the easiest for you. They make you work, how dare they!
I believe the reason the ass got re-elected in which a majority will state privately not wanting to get drawn into the drama, is that he is effective in his job in trying to make a professional DM corp, not a bunch of burnt out slackers. Hell never succeed of course (#1 burnt-out slacker posting this), but at least he gives a shit, and takes pride in his "virtual" job.
I hope this duel is over a lack of communication, I doubt Rusty was going to order the police to go over and shut off the TSM server when it went live on the 15th. I cant believe of all the hard work put in all these months by Rick would be over a application process. Its a damn shame if it is.
I believe the reason the ass got re-elected in which a majority will state privately not wanting to get drawn into the drama, is that he is effective in his job in trying to make a professional DM corp, not a bunch of burnt out slackers. Hell never succeed of course (#1 burnt-out slacker posting this), but at least he gives a shit, and takes pride in his "virtual" job.
I hope this duel is over a lack of communication, I doubt Rusty was going to order the police to go over and shut off the TSM server when it went live on the 15th. I cant believe of all the hard work put in all these months by Rick would be over a application process. Its a damn shame if it is.
DM whana-be