ergh... shouldn't be replying to this, because I don't have time to do it properly- but I really don't feel I can let mis/dis-information stand on a few important points.
1. It is most certainly incorrect to say ALFA has nothing to show for the timespan in which NWN2 has been out. A tremendous body of work has been assembled, countless hours of discussion, planning, building, scripting, testing- from which a great deal has been learned. About the only thing it does not have to show for the time, is a live NWN2 server. Hell, we could have slapped the "live" title on 003 back when Indio first hosted it a year ago- but the consensus was do get many more things "right" from day one of live. Perhaps this decision is on some level to blame for some of the frustrations, but it was a decision, not some kind of systematic disability. Remember as well that ALFA's been managing a stable (albeit shrinking) NWN1 world as well across this timeframe, because that has seemed to be the will of it's membership. Might things have moved faster if we'd cut the NWN1 servers and focused on NWN2? Perhaps, but that would be robbing the members of the community of the wealth of stories and entertainment that have transpired in the time since then.
Let's also not forget, one of the "nothings" that ALFA has to show for it's last 2 years is the ACR, which is one of the (many) things that has made Exodus successful as a Live server. Many of the advancements and achievements that ALFA has made in this time are being shared elsewhere. They have been and will continue to be significant, both here and elsewhere. While I understand that you are frustrated with the choice to hold a transition to Live, please do not assume this is because nothing has been accomplished.
2. Scope. Again, the focus on "Is it Live?" being the only question that matters- Can you call ALFA's scope smaller? Scope includes intent and breadth- we're already looking at multiple teams working in parallel here- we have been since day one, and continue to, even though the number of teams has decreased over time. We have done some consolidation and collaboration, but it doesn't change the concept of scope. Any time a community is going to try to coordinate and manage many independant groups (server teams), it's going to need some sort of larger organization. That not many of the teams are within striking distance of "Live" by the standards that were set out a long time ago, doesn't mean they can be discounted- the "scope" of the community means we need a large tent, to keep all our disparate contributors in the "fold", so to speak. The two communities have a different goal, a different approach. One can argue which is more effective on any given aspect, but it's clear ALFA's scope is larger- indeed, this is one of the significant problems it faces day in and day out.
3. "Rats and sinking ships"- the sky is falling, just as it was a few administrations back, and a few before that. Have we lost the forums? Centralized hosting disappeared, vault pulled? One can bemoan or point fingers over lower player numbers, but I'd say most all the NWN1 servers are in some sort of decline- trying to link that decline causally with ALFA's governance structure is a real stretch- so have all the other NWN1 communities that have shrunk or gone under, also done so "because" of an evolving hierarchy based on balance of power and democratic elections? We can look at the reality of ALFA as a smaller community, and consider if a smaller governance structure would now better suit it- but let's give the tiresome "This is the end!" cries a rest.
4. Applications- I know for a fact that Exodus apps are not always turned around in a single day. Like ALFA's, some move faster than others, and there is a good deal of day-in-day-out variation. A committee/council is not a panacea for everything that is perceived as a problem by any stretch.
What I will say has struck me about Fluff's manifesto, and in the discussions afterwards, is his take on compartmentalization. One disturbing thing I have seen increasingly over time with ALFA's current system is a lack of "community". From Admin to server teams, to departments- I see members essentially saying "Well, that's sure not going to cut it here." We don't want global DMs because we assume DMs are worse on server X and we don't want them messing with plots on our server, etc. The clashes over Admin cross-platform issues are another example. Instead of Admin finding a common ground and offering a common decision for the community, we see entrenchment and battling from the trenches.
Our balance of powers is made to protect ALFA as a community from sudden, unchecked and potentially destructive change- so no one person can un-do the work of many- but it's also fostered an environment where many feel frustrated at a perceived inability to inact change- and that frustration, plus the cumulative grudges of five years of creative differences, fosters an environment where people even seem to actively work to block each other, even while ranting about how broken the "system" is. We tolerate dissent- indeed, even welcome it into offices and positions of influence because we try to be a representative community.
We give votes to the players, to give them a say in who hold Admin positions- how many players actually value this right? Do they feel better represented when the candidate for an Admin post they voted for, is elected? Does that outweigh the frustration, anger, or will to obstruct that comes from the other half who "voted for the other guy(gal)"? We're not a huge community- we can't divorce ourselves entirely from everyone we've ever had a major difference of opinion on, and still expect things to run smoothly.
IF a council of sorts were to be formed, one way or another, of like-minded members who could share in a common vision for ALFA- who could put aside their personal differences, and work together to realize the goals of the community- I do believe this could be a transforming event that could revitalize ALFA, and restore the faith of the many members whose overriding interest, it to have a place to play, or DM, in a persistent world representing a varied cross-section of Faerun, among some of the best roleplayers to be found anywhere. But it is the attitude, the sense of teamwork and, dare I say, "community", that would make this possible, more than a change in rules and posts and names and positions. As long as we're looking to blame others, and/or only bothered to do the bare minimum of what is "required" of us, we will continue to struggle.
Exodus has such a council, but that council was formed by starting something new, by invitation- a departure and "escape" from the way things were done before. I cannot say if it is possible to form such a grouping smoothly out of the disparate and entrenched opinions that hold their ambivalent sway over the current arrangement. They feel that all the members of their community have representation, because the Council listens to anyone who has something to say. The voting, though, happens in private, and only among members of the council. The effective result is, one stance on divisive matters- but to the jaded eye, is that democracy? Does the average player, have any way to vote, other than with his or her feet? It works for them, as they are now- but I've presumed that ALFA's membership wants more than that- actual votes on who is among the decision-makers. But realistically, maybe the membership just wants a place to roleplay, DM, and be DMed.
I really don't know how great a place the democratic structure has, in the priorities of most of our members. If we restructured, would those who wanted a position on a "council", but did not receive it, leave and dedicate themselves to attacking it? My concern is mostly for those who are actively engaged in creating the world that we hope most of our current and future membership will get to experience at this point- but also for the many members who have distanced themselves from ALFA for one reason or another, over one person or another, one dispute or another. If a move to a council format could help us recapture the spirit of common purpose, perhaps it really would be worth doing. But if we're going to continue presuming the worst about everything and everyone, no amount of restructuring will heal the wounds.
So, are we going to try to be constructive, or continue to try to tear what is still left of ALFA? Let's put aside the demonization and incendiary condemnation, and consider what may actually be best way forward from here.
Governance Reform
Moderator: ALFA Administrators
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AcadiusLost
- Chosen of Forumamus, God of Forums
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What Jayde said. I agree on most points. But, let me clarify just a few things. The sinking ship was an analogy. There's a hole somewhere and it needs to be fixed before the ship takes on enough water to sink it. Some would say it's already sunk. My opinion is, if the right moves aren't made now, the ship is most certainly goin' down. The opportunity to save it, is there. It just has to be done.
When I say ALFA has nothing to show for it, that's what I mean. In the end, the only thing that matters outwardly, is product. I don't care how much work has been done internally. If a customer/consumer/player can't see, touch, and purchase a tangible product, it doesn't matter. And, even when companies do that, they build the hype machine and their product becomes highly anticipated and draws throngs of gawkers, droolers, and anxious folks eager to get their hands on the upcomin' product. But, ALFA has done a poor job of building and/or maintaining hype and there is no product. To people behind the scenes who know what's been done, it's one thing. But, in the eyes of those who are looking to scratch their NWN2 RP itch, that's nothing. There is nothing to play on, DM on, or do anything else NWN2, Forgotten Realms, DnD, or Roleplay related on. That's what people see. I wish that weren't the case but it is.
And, considering I'm one of the one's involved in approving Exodus apps, I know for a fact they're approved within a day's time and never more than two days.
So, clarifications aside, I agree wholeheartedly with what you've said.
In my opinion, there are several ways I believe that ALFA can be made whole again, it can be revived and revitalized. Revamping the system entire is one way to facilitate the departure of the old mindset you speak of, AL. Which most certainly exist and has hurt this community probably more than anything else. There is no sense of community and togetherness here at all.
Throw out the whole Admin/Domain thing. Allow people to be equals and make decisions as a group on the whole and for the whole of ALFA. This changes the system, group, and personal dynamics here in ALFA. The "Good Ol' Boy" system will continue to perpetuate the mindset that exist now.
Opening up all server to all DMs would be a start in that direction. People need to remember, you're not building or heading up a server for you. If you want to do that, then just make a PW independent of ALFA and run your own deal. These servers are for ALFA, therefore should be open to all ALFA DMs. Trust your DMs. How can ALFA trust me to DM, but the HDM of server so and so, doesn't trust me on their server? That's a ridiculous notion to me. When I ran Westgate, and subsequently Skullport, all DMs were welcome on those servers. They just had to ask. I never said no. And guess what? The server nor ALFA 'sploded.
Trading an attitude of preclusion and exclusion for one of inclusion, should be made a priority. Planetouched comes to mind. We said no before we even looked at them in the game. Again, ridiculous.
Builders... what happened to building hubs and then adding on? It's fun to think big and all scope-y and stuff... BUT THERE'S NOTHING TO PLAY OR DM ON!
Scale things back for just a sec. Build a core area and one or two adventure sites like a simple dungeon, crypt, or whatever. Something that can be done very quickly. For example, a less developed area or town that exist on the server area you're trying to build. It's a starting point, something the PCs themselves can flesh out. You can do grandiose later. Simple and quick gets the players and DMs involved by giving them somewhere to play.
I was going to do this with the Underdark until I basically got fed up with ALFA and how it's run. Hell, I woulda even did it for some surface stuff. Still would if things changed around here. I don't wanna see the place die, don't hate the place, nor anybody here. But, look around you...
I see no live servers, I see very few people around, I see little excitement and anticipation on what's to come outside of those who are building and a select few. ALFA needs a reboot. The admin should be willing to look at something else as an alternative to what's being done now. Or do you wait until you have 1-3 servers up in 6 months to a year, and see that only a relative few people show up to play and DM and then say, "Hey, guys, I don't think this is working?"
ALFA was a leader in the NWN community once upon a time. Is there anybody here that can honestly state that's the case now? Leaders don't see back on their haunches and say, let's wait and see what happens. They make things happen and people follow THEIR lead. Back in 2005 ALFA's leaders talked about NWN2 and all these grand plans and laid out this whole long drawn up document on what was gonna be done, etc. And, balked at anybody who decried the document as useless for the reality of what was coming. Yet, here it is 2008, with the gaming coming out in 2006, and there are two beta servers up. I'm sorry... ALFA's leaders should have made damn sure there was a place to play. They should've been at the forefront, building, hosting, or making sure something was built or hosted. For those of you not fed up and those of you still down for the cause, there's no reason a live server of some sort shouldn't be up right now. None. Agree or disagree, the facts are, a base mod exist. Builders exist. People want to play and DM. There are NO EXCUSES. Anybody that says otherwise, is selling something.
When I say ALFA has nothing to show for it, that's what I mean. In the end, the only thing that matters outwardly, is product. I don't care how much work has been done internally. If a customer/consumer/player can't see, touch, and purchase a tangible product, it doesn't matter. And, even when companies do that, they build the hype machine and their product becomes highly anticipated and draws throngs of gawkers, droolers, and anxious folks eager to get their hands on the upcomin' product. But, ALFA has done a poor job of building and/or maintaining hype and there is no product. To people behind the scenes who know what's been done, it's one thing. But, in the eyes of those who are looking to scratch their NWN2 RP itch, that's nothing. There is nothing to play on, DM on, or do anything else NWN2, Forgotten Realms, DnD, or Roleplay related on. That's what people see. I wish that weren't the case but it is.
And, considering I'm one of the one's involved in approving Exodus apps, I know for a fact they're approved within a day's time and never more than two days.
So, clarifications aside, I agree wholeheartedly with what you've said.
In my opinion, there are several ways I believe that ALFA can be made whole again, it can be revived and revitalized. Revamping the system entire is one way to facilitate the departure of the old mindset you speak of, AL. Which most certainly exist and has hurt this community probably more than anything else. There is no sense of community and togetherness here at all.
Throw out the whole Admin/Domain thing. Allow people to be equals and make decisions as a group on the whole and for the whole of ALFA. This changes the system, group, and personal dynamics here in ALFA. The "Good Ol' Boy" system will continue to perpetuate the mindset that exist now.
Opening up all server to all DMs would be a start in that direction. People need to remember, you're not building or heading up a server for you. If you want to do that, then just make a PW independent of ALFA and run your own deal. These servers are for ALFA, therefore should be open to all ALFA DMs. Trust your DMs. How can ALFA trust me to DM, but the HDM of server so and so, doesn't trust me on their server? That's a ridiculous notion to me. When I ran Westgate, and subsequently Skullport, all DMs were welcome on those servers. They just had to ask. I never said no. And guess what? The server nor ALFA 'sploded.
Trading an attitude of preclusion and exclusion for one of inclusion, should be made a priority. Planetouched comes to mind. We said no before we even looked at them in the game. Again, ridiculous.
Builders... what happened to building hubs and then adding on? It's fun to think big and all scope-y and stuff... BUT THERE'S NOTHING TO PLAY OR DM ON!
Scale things back for just a sec. Build a core area and one or two adventure sites like a simple dungeon, crypt, or whatever. Something that can be done very quickly. For example, a less developed area or town that exist on the server area you're trying to build. It's a starting point, something the PCs themselves can flesh out. You can do grandiose later. Simple and quick gets the players and DMs involved by giving them somewhere to play.
I was going to do this with the Underdark until I basically got fed up with ALFA and how it's run. Hell, I woulda even did it for some surface stuff. Still would if things changed around here. I don't wanna see the place die, don't hate the place, nor anybody here. But, look around you...
I see no live servers, I see very few people around, I see little excitement and anticipation on what's to come outside of those who are building and a select few. ALFA needs a reboot. The admin should be willing to look at something else as an alternative to what's being done now. Or do you wait until you have 1-3 servers up in 6 months to a year, and see that only a relative few people show up to play and DM and then say, "Hey, guys, I don't think this is working?"
ALFA was a leader in the NWN community once upon a time. Is there anybody here that can honestly state that's the case now? Leaders don't see back on their haunches and say, let's wait and see what happens. They make things happen and people follow THEIR lead. Back in 2005 ALFA's leaders talked about NWN2 and all these grand plans and laid out this whole long drawn up document on what was gonna be done, etc. And, balked at anybody who decried the document as useless for the reality of what was coming. Yet, here it is 2008, with the gaming coming out in 2006, and there are two beta servers up. I'm sorry... ALFA's leaders should have made damn sure there was a place to play. They should've been at the forefront, building, hosting, or making sure something was built or hosted. For those of you not fed up and those of you still down for the cause, there's no reason a live server of some sort shouldn't be up right now. None. Agree or disagree, the facts are, a base mod exist. Builders exist. People want to play and DM. There are NO EXCUSES. Anybody that says otherwise, is selling something.
"You people have not given Private Pyle the proper motivation! So, from now on, when Private Pyle fucks up... I will not punish him. I will punish all of you! And the way I see it, ladies... you owe me for one jelly donut! Now, get on your faces!"
Posts like this really confuse me. Especially when I look here
http://www.alandfaraway.org/phpbbforum/ ... hp?t=31760
I have posted dozens of screenies of my progress, Wynna has built the university, Indio has posted dozens of beautiful exteriors of many areas, we have our beta up online for testing, and other builders have contributed wonderful things.
You got the talent we need, you got the experience we need, you got the time to post those lengthy crtiticisms, constructive or other, yet you won't build one NWN2 item for the project. How much does it take to build a couple of interiors or some cool armor or a few herbs to help us along?
http://www.alandfaraway.org/phpbbforum/ ... hp?t=31760
I have posted dozens of screenies of my progress, Wynna has built the university, Indio has posted dozens of beautiful exteriors of many areas, we have our beta up online for testing, and other builders have contributed wonderful things.
You got the talent we need, you got the experience we need, you got the time to post those lengthy crtiticisms, constructive or other, yet you won't build one NWN2 item for the project. How much does it take to build a couple of interiors or some cool armor or a few herbs to help us along?
Rick, don't get me wrong. I'm not minimizing what you've done. I've seen the progress and have been following it. I commend you, Indio, and Wynna for diggin' into the toolset and doin' your thing. But... there's always a but. What I'm saying is, there's nothing that's deemed playable. Are some beta test things up? Sure. But there aren't any live servers at a point that most, if not all thought there would be. And, I don't see any reason why there isn't. There should be, is all I'm saying.
And, yes, I've built an entire server for ALFA, rebuilt half of one, and lent a hand in fixin' the ever jacked up WD. The reason I won't build anything is that, like many others, my interest in participatin' in ALFA has gone by the wayside. I don't like what I see, which I've stated and outlined a million times over the last 2 and a half years. What I begin talking about back in 2005 or so, has come to fruition. That's why I haven't done anything. I truly wanted to be a part of ALFA in NWN2 in every capacity, but... it's hard for me to see a future here with the way things operate.
I stopped building, I stopped DMing, and my last bastion was playing. I said I would play until ALFA's petty politics affected that. Lo and behold, it did. I look at projects like Exodus and I see what ALFA could be. A group of people, friends even, gathering for the same purpose and everybody working toward that goal without the superfluous nonsense, drama, and the albatross of an unwieldy governmental system which has no place in a gaming community.
If you look in the ALFA NWN 027 forum for the underdark, you'll see we had a great concept for what I was going to build. It wouldn't have taken me long at all to do it and with a host, it would've been live by now. Unfortunately, I look around and I'm just not there anymore, man. It's not burnout either. It's just like all of my hopes, dreams, and visions of what ALFA could be have been stripped away. The place isn't dead, but it damn near feels like it is to me. If things were to change, I'd be all about building and DMing and helping others build. We'd get things done a lot quicker with more manpower. That's for sure.
I've been here for 7 years or so and have seen many come and go, and I've seen ALFA change. It's changed into something that isn't recognizable to me anymore. Things that once worked, don't anymore. There's no longer a viable community here anymore. The fun has been leeched out of this place slowly but surely. And, as I said over 2 years ago, and have been saying, it'd be different if I was the lone voice on this topic. But, many, many others have sounded off about it, left over it, or just plain don't bother anymore. But, those things have been ignored and written off as doomsaying. I'm gonna say it again... look around you and ask yourself why people like me are NOT building, or have left altogether. Why did the excitement die? Why have people just quit? Yes, people have quit because of other people, burnout, or RL. But, what about those who post on the boards regularly, hang out in chat regularly, or have gone to other PWs? These people are around yet they could care less about lending a hand.
I'd like everyone who loves this place and wants to see it flourish, grow, and succeed to ask themselves why.
But not why do people want to see ALFA fail. Ask yourselves, why do people feel ALFA has failed them?
And, yes, I've built an entire server for ALFA, rebuilt half of one, and lent a hand in fixin' the ever jacked up WD. The reason I won't build anything is that, like many others, my interest in participatin' in ALFA has gone by the wayside. I don't like what I see, which I've stated and outlined a million times over the last 2 and a half years. What I begin talking about back in 2005 or so, has come to fruition. That's why I haven't done anything. I truly wanted to be a part of ALFA in NWN2 in every capacity, but... it's hard for me to see a future here with the way things operate.
I stopped building, I stopped DMing, and my last bastion was playing. I said I would play until ALFA's petty politics affected that. Lo and behold, it did. I look at projects like Exodus and I see what ALFA could be. A group of people, friends even, gathering for the same purpose and everybody working toward that goal without the superfluous nonsense, drama, and the albatross of an unwieldy governmental system which has no place in a gaming community.
If you look in the ALFA NWN 027 forum for the underdark, you'll see we had a great concept for what I was going to build. It wouldn't have taken me long at all to do it and with a host, it would've been live by now. Unfortunately, I look around and I'm just not there anymore, man. It's not burnout either. It's just like all of my hopes, dreams, and visions of what ALFA could be have been stripped away. The place isn't dead, but it damn near feels like it is to me. If things were to change, I'd be all about building and DMing and helping others build. We'd get things done a lot quicker with more manpower. That's for sure.
I've been here for 7 years or so and have seen many come and go, and I've seen ALFA change. It's changed into something that isn't recognizable to me anymore. Things that once worked, don't anymore. There's no longer a viable community here anymore. The fun has been leeched out of this place slowly but surely. And, as I said over 2 years ago, and have been saying, it'd be different if I was the lone voice on this topic. But, many, many others have sounded off about it, left over it, or just plain don't bother anymore. But, those things have been ignored and written off as doomsaying. I'm gonna say it again... look around you and ask yourself why people like me are NOT building, or have left altogether. Why did the excitement die? Why have people just quit? Yes, people have quit because of other people, burnout, or RL. But, what about those who post on the boards regularly, hang out in chat regularly, or have gone to other PWs? These people are around yet they could care less about lending a hand.
I'd like everyone who loves this place and wants to see it flourish, grow, and succeed to ask themselves why.
But not why do people want to see ALFA fail. Ask yourselves, why do people feel ALFA has failed them?
"You people have not given Private Pyle the proper motivation! So, from now on, when Private Pyle fucks up... I will not punish him. I will punish all of you! And the way I see it, ladies... you owe me for one jelly donut! Now, get on your faces!"
-
Mikayla
- Valsharess of ALFA
- Posts: 3707
- Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2004 5:37 pm
- Location: Qu'ellar Faen Tlabbar, Noble Room 7, Menzoberranzan, NorthUnderdark
I dunno Inny, doomsaying in 2005 and now, three years later, coming back to say you were right is pretty cheap talk - its easy to say "this will come to an end!" because all things eventually do - everyone eventually dies and everything eventually ends. So, we went another 3 years after your first doom-saying - does that make you right? No, it just makes you persistent.
And as for ALFA failing, well, maybe some - but others? Not so much - I don't feel ALFA has ever failed me. I got 1 1/2 year of great DMing here which I much enjoyed and I got roughly 4 years of playing and its been the greatest RP experience I've ever had. And its still going - the Hamiltons and I were making Sembia safe for evil just Tuesday night - the Black Archer, fiends, and horses oh my! How has ALFA failed me? Well, it hasn't yet. Maybe it will, but not so far.
And all this doomsaying now is not helping anything - going about saying how wonderful Exodus is (and I am sure its great, don't get me wrong) doesn't alleviate ALFA's ills, NOR does it diminish that which ALFA has accomplished. Exodus is its own thing - I may even wander over there someday - but its success does not equal ALFA's failure.
And as for ALFA failing, well, maybe some - but others? Not so much - I don't feel ALFA has ever failed me. I got 1 1/2 year of great DMing here which I much enjoyed and I got roughly 4 years of playing and its been the greatest RP experience I've ever had. And its still going - the Hamiltons and I were making Sembia safe for evil just Tuesday night - the Black Archer, fiends, and horses oh my! How has ALFA failed me? Well, it hasn't yet. Maybe it will, but not so far.
And all this doomsaying now is not helping anything - going about saying how wonderful Exodus is (and I am sure its great, don't get me wrong) doesn't alleviate ALFA's ills, NOR does it diminish that which ALFA has accomplished. Exodus is its own thing - I may even wander over there someday - but its success does not equal ALFA's failure.
ALFA1-NWN1: Sheyreiza Valakahsa
NWN2: Layla (aka Aliyah, Amira, Snake and others) and Vellya
NWN1-WD: Shein'n Valakasha
NWN2: Layla (aka Aliyah, Amira, Snake and others) and Vellya
NWN1-WD: Shein'n Valakasha
And I heard, as it were, the noise of thunder: One of the four beasts saying: "Come and see." And I saw. And behold, a white horse.
There's a man goin' 'round takin' names. An' he decides who to free and who to blame. Everybody won't be treated all the same. There'll be a golden ladder reaching down. When the man comes around.
The hairs on your arm will stand up. At the terror in each sip and in each sup. For you partake of that last offered cup, Or disappear into the potter's ground. When the man comes around.
Hear the trumpets, hear the pipers. One hundred million angels singin'. Multitudes are marching to the big kettle drum. Voices callin', voices cryin'. Some are born an' some are dyin'. It's Alpha's and Omega's Kingdom come.
And the whirlwind is in the thorn tree. The virgins are all trimming their wicks. The whirlwind is in the thorn tree. It's hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
Till Armageddon, no Shalam, no Shalom. Then the father hen will call his chickens home. The wise men will bow down before the throne. And at his feet they'll cast their golden crown. When the man comes around.
Whoever is unjust, let him be unjust still. Whoever is righteous, let him be righteous still. Whoever is filthy, let him be filthy still. Listen to the words long written down, When the man comes around.
Hear the trumpets, hear the pipers. One hundred million angels singin'. Multitudes are marchin' to the big kettle drum. Voices callin', voices cryin'. Some are born an' some are dyin'. It's Alpha's and Omega's Kingdom come.
And the whirlwind is in the thorn tree. The virgins are all trimming their wicks. The whirlwind is in the thorn tree. It's hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
In measured hundredweight and penny pound. When the man comes around.
And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts, And I looked and behold: a pale horse. And his name, that sat on him, was Death. And Hell followed with him.
There's a man goin' 'round takin' names. An' he decides who to free and who to blame. Everybody won't be treated all the same. There'll be a golden ladder reaching down. When the man comes around.
The hairs on your arm will stand up. At the terror in each sip and in each sup. For you partake of that last offered cup, Or disappear into the potter's ground. When the man comes around.
Hear the trumpets, hear the pipers. One hundred million angels singin'. Multitudes are marching to the big kettle drum. Voices callin', voices cryin'. Some are born an' some are dyin'. It's Alpha's and Omega's Kingdom come.
And the whirlwind is in the thorn tree. The virgins are all trimming their wicks. The whirlwind is in the thorn tree. It's hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
Till Armageddon, no Shalam, no Shalom. Then the father hen will call his chickens home. The wise men will bow down before the throne. And at his feet they'll cast their golden crown. When the man comes around.
Whoever is unjust, let him be unjust still. Whoever is righteous, let him be righteous still. Whoever is filthy, let him be filthy still. Listen to the words long written down, When the man comes around.
Hear the trumpets, hear the pipers. One hundred million angels singin'. Multitudes are marchin' to the big kettle drum. Voices callin', voices cryin'. Some are born an' some are dyin'. It's Alpha's and Omega's Kingdom come.
And the whirlwind is in the thorn tree. The virgins are all trimming their wicks. The whirlwind is in the thorn tree. It's hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
In measured hundredweight and penny pound. When the man comes around.
And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts, And I looked and behold: a pale horse. And his name, that sat on him, was Death. And Hell followed with him.
Would anyone like some cheese with their whine?
Seriously the people in ALFA who actually play, DM, script, develop systems, administrate and build work extremely hard for a volunteer organisation.
I dont see the people who actually have their head-down, bum-up complaining about ALFA and where its at. I do hear forum trolls and people who now contribute little doing most of the complaining.
The thread appears to be "I'm not going to contribute until ALFA is like I want it to be." Tough, its not going to be like you want it to be until you decide to contribute positively. For me, I dont care about structure I care about players, all I want is to see the Moonsea represented so they can enjoy it.
I've said it before and I'll say it again. Its all a matter of perception and what you focus on grows. What you see is a reflection. If you are inactive, you most likely see inactivity in the community. If you are active, you see things getting done.
Don't blame others for your own perceived negativity about the community. Grow up and own it.
I see a tonne being done all the time, I also see trolls wasting contributors time with negativity and belitting their work. If you see something that needs improving and you are passionate enough to speak out about it, why dont you commit your energy to assisting with the improvements.
Yes I know that a number of disgruntled ALFAns have worked hard in the past and have bailed because of a percieved lack of support (hmmm.. that sounds familiar). I dont know what you expected for your work all I know is that the real world applies here and not everyone has time to be as dedicated as a select few.
Its great when people apply their energy here but it has to be in a balanced fashion or real world things suffer and people end up having to stop what they are doing.
If personalities are the problem, who gives a crap, ignore it or use it and move on. Why should someone elses personality stop you from achieving what you want to achieve. I find other personalities that are completely different to mine refreshing to work with in that it helps check and balance some of my more outlandish ideas.
The real ALFAns, the core that I see people joke about on these forums are the ones down getting their hands dirty and creating what they want ALFA to be, and yes that includes the players in this community.
The dedicated, solid players in this community are the reason I build stuff and you can be damn sure that once I've built enough of my little corner of the realms I'll be focussing on marketing to get some new players/old players back for you to enjoy it with.
Seriously the people in ALFA who actually play, DM, script, develop systems, administrate and build work extremely hard for a volunteer organisation.
I dont see the people who actually have their head-down, bum-up complaining about ALFA and where its at. I do hear forum trolls and people who now contribute little doing most of the complaining.
The thread appears to be "I'm not going to contribute until ALFA is like I want it to be." Tough, its not going to be like you want it to be until you decide to contribute positively. For me, I dont care about structure I care about players, all I want is to see the Moonsea represented so they can enjoy it.
I've said it before and I'll say it again. Its all a matter of perception and what you focus on grows. What you see is a reflection. If you are inactive, you most likely see inactivity in the community. If you are active, you see things getting done.
Don't blame others for your own perceived negativity about the community. Grow up and own it.
I see a tonne being done all the time, I also see trolls wasting contributors time with negativity and belitting their work. If you see something that needs improving and you are passionate enough to speak out about it, why dont you commit your energy to assisting with the improvements.
Yes I know that a number of disgruntled ALFAns have worked hard in the past and have bailed because of a percieved lack of support (hmmm.. that sounds familiar). I dont know what you expected for your work all I know is that the real world applies here and not everyone has time to be as dedicated as a select few.
Its great when people apply their energy here but it has to be in a balanced fashion or real world things suffer and people end up having to stop what they are doing.
If personalities are the problem, who gives a crap, ignore it or use it and move on. Why should someone elses personality stop you from achieving what you want to achieve. I find other personalities that are completely different to mine refreshing to work with in that it helps check and balance some of my more outlandish ideas.
The real ALFAns, the core that I see people joke about on these forums are the ones down getting their hands dirty and creating what they want ALFA to be, and yes that includes the players in this community.
The dedicated, solid players in this community are the reason I build stuff and you can be damn sure that once I've built enough of my little corner of the realms I'll be focussing on marketing to get some new players/old players back for you to enjoy it with.
On indefinite real life hiatus
[22:52] <Veilan> obviously something sinister must be afoot if a DM does not have his social security number in his avatar name!
[22:52] <Veilan> obviously something sinister must be afoot if a DM does not have his social security number in his avatar name!
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fluffmonster
- Haste Bear
- Posts: 2103
- Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 11:54 pm
- Location: Wisconsin, USA
Seems like there's no support for the Council idea from those who would nominally constitute it. Its hard to say its really a good idea if the people most affected don't want it. I was thinking about playing champion to the change, even running for DMA on a Council platform promoting change from within the system, but it appears to me there is no taste for it. Maybe there will be opportunities to reconsider the idea in the future, but I doubt it. In retrospect I suppose I shouldn't even have brought it up. Sorry for the disruption.
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Mikayla
- Valsharess of ALFA
- Posts: 3707
- Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2004 5:37 pm
- Location: Qu'ellar Faen Tlabbar, Noble Room 7, Menzoberranzan, NorthUnderdark
Before fluff runs off never to be heard from again, let me say I am certainly open to the idea of a council running things, just not in the simplified, "it'll all be okay with no rules" pollyannish style Inny put forth. I think an intelligently designed council, constructed with a real eye towards the challenges ALFA faces and presents, could work great - perhaps better than our current system. Lolth knows our current system has its fair share of challenges and it is not completely functional.
Of course, having said all that, I am not one of the Admin any more - I am "little people" now to paraphrase the cop Bryant in Blade Runner.
**shrugs**
Of course, having said all that, I am not one of the Admin any more - I am "little people" now to paraphrase the cop Bryant in Blade Runner.
**shrugs**
ALFA1-NWN1: Sheyreiza Valakahsa
NWN2: Layla (aka Aliyah, Amira, Snake and others) and Vellya
NWN1-WD: Shein'n Valakasha
NWN2: Layla (aka Aliyah, Amira, Snake and others) and Vellya
NWN1-WD: Shein'n Valakasha
If you believe in the idea fluff, it would be great to see you running for DMA on the platform of promoting a council structure. I would love to see a bit more detail about the possible formats it could take (although admittidly I haven't had time to read this thread in detail...).
< Signature Free Zone >
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AcadiusLost
- Chosen of Forumamus, God of Forums
- Posts: 5061
- Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2004 8:38 am
- Location: Montara, CA [GMT -8]
- Contact:
I would also say, that a general sentiment I've seen among most of the engaged contributors replying, is that the actual manner of the governance itself isn't a major concern to them. It might become one, if things changed in such a way that unreasonable demands were made on our builders- but I'd say the majority of the fireworks in this thread have been against the "ALFA has failed/broken" sentiment used by others in an attempt to support your reformation call.
In my opinion, this has distracted attention from the more vital questions your proposal raises- would our membership, the players themselves, feel better represented or served by a council, rather than a body of elected Admin? Would such a move be empowering and enabling for our builders (and especially, to former contributors, and others who might return to build again?)- or would it be a reason for old stalwarts of the community to give up on the place entirely? What happens when/if "Divisive Community member X" gets named to the council- and they no longer get "termed out" or have a recall process available? Could a council manage/include a DM corps sufficient for 2-3 servers without becoming too large to work efficiently? DMs currently are accountable to their HDMs, and to the DMA- is this improved on or worsened if it is an amorphous Council that holds this authority? Does it hinge on whether said DM is a member of such a council?
These are the sort of questions I was hoping to see a mature and rational discussion of- unfortunately I think some are reading this thread in the same light as the "Why do so many people want ALFA to fail" one- cheerleading for one side or the other.
That this call comes from one of the architects of ALFA's current system of governance should not be overlooked either. Rather than a cry for revolution, I see in this an honest attempt to ask us all to consider what can be done to learn from our 5+ years of experience as a community. Regardless whether or not a council format is given serious consideration, I think the original points made are well observed, and I commend Fluff for raising them.
In my opinion, this has distracted attention from the more vital questions your proposal raises- would our membership, the players themselves, feel better represented or served by a council, rather than a body of elected Admin? Would such a move be empowering and enabling for our builders (and especially, to former contributors, and others who might return to build again?)- or would it be a reason for old stalwarts of the community to give up on the place entirely? What happens when/if "Divisive Community member X" gets named to the council- and they no longer get "termed out" or have a recall process available? Could a council manage/include a DM corps sufficient for 2-3 servers without becoming too large to work efficiently? DMs currently are accountable to their HDMs, and to the DMA- is this improved on or worsened if it is an amorphous Council that holds this authority? Does it hinge on whether said DM is a member of such a council?
These are the sort of questions I was hoping to see a mature and rational discussion of- unfortunately I think some are reading this thread in the same light as the "Why do so many people want ALFA to fail" one- cheerleading for one side or the other.
That this call comes from one of the architects of ALFA's current system of governance should not be overlooked either. Rather than a cry for revolution, I see in this an honest attempt to ask us all to consider what can be done to learn from our 5+ years of experience as a community. Regardless whether or not a council format is given serious consideration, I think the original points made are well observed, and I commend Fluff for raising them.
Amen, don't apologize Fluff, your thoughts are good ones...and I agree with the statements made above that the underlying disagreement in this topic has been the ALFA is going down bs. There is a bit to be hammered out if Council is what we want...but as also mentioned above, I am myself pretty busy and shrug at the administrative process. Either way Ima still be working hard for ALFA...but I don't think I would have time to weigh in on a multitude of decisions...but that's just me. Don't feel like you're being shot down Fluff....there is just a lot of what if's to be answered for.
Daniel
Daniel
Zyrus Meynolt: [Party] For the record, if this somehow blows up in our faces and I die, I want a raiseSwift wrote: Permadeath is only permadeath when the PCs wallet is empty.
<Castano>: danielnm - can you blame them?
<danielmn>: Yes,
<danielmn>: Easily.
"And in this twilight....our choices seal our fate"
There there, Fluff... it's OK.