Death Shouldn't Feel like a Punishment

[orangetree]

Foam said it, I've been saying it for a long time. Level 3 start does away with this entire problem. If those out there with high levels feel like its unfair then give every active player in ALFA an equal XP boost. I don't think it really should be necessary because, you know, we aren't supposed to be playing in a leveling or power progression race, but if XP is that important to people then let em have it. Give em some virtual gold too for their trouble.

I think the point of Xan's post is it sucks not being able to continue enjoying a game you have been playing with others for a long time. Especially one that is really a lot of fun. Its like when that great TV series you have been watching ends -- it sucks. We indeed experienced that in SE. It hits the casual player (Ksiel comes to mind), who really can only play that one campaign night due to RL, the hardest.

Yes, you can jump in with a new level 1 ala Heero, but it is real hard and you do feel kinda useless -- at least until you hit about level 3. This is probably your best option in ALFA Xan, if you want to continue in the same game.

Yes, you can join Adanu's campaign, or Shadowfax's lowbie stuff, or something else, and get your game that way. Zelk is right, encouraging game with other players and DMs through starting over is a good thing. Think about it Xan, I have done it recently and it can be a lot of fun. But if you have scheduled that one gaming night into your busy schedule as a casual player, it totally sucks. And yes it is a deterrent to playing. Last night my PC got involved in this campaign and when I logged off it was with the feeling of how much I miss playing with all of you guys. So yeah, it sucks to not be able to jump back in like in PnP.

Level 3 start solves all of that. You have just enough in your tank at level 3 to survive, even in a group that is much higher level. Level progression after 3 is slow enough that it all evens out in the long run. The point is, why force people who want to get back into the same game to grind it out to survivability (admit it most of us have done it) or go do something else? Xan is right, the consequences should be to the PCs, not the players. It truly does not make a lot of sense.

A level 3 start makes sense for a lot of other reasons too, number one of which to me is more robust story in your character backgrounds. Playing a fresh faced kid off the farm can be fun, and yes some start their adventuring life at an older age, but a bio with a few levels in it lends to a better story IMO, and allows you to tailor your PC to that backstory quite a bit more.

Finally, Level 1 sucks. Heegz and I debated this recently and I think he agrees with me now =D Level 2 sucks just a bit less. The game starts to get real fun at level 3. For me the reason is that too much OOC thinking about "survivability" creeps in to my game at those first two levels if I let it. When does that happen? When I really like the PC concept and want it to last a bit so I can continue to enjoy playing it. Its sort of backwards. if I make a "throw away" PC I feel like I have more freedom to RP ICly than when I make one I spend a lot of time on and really want to last. I hate playing really cautious and careful "adventurers." I feel that by definition these are people who do and should take risks, or live according to their principles regardless of risk etc. When I find myself avoiding stuff with my lowbie that I know the PC would do if calling the shots (ie immersive RP!) I end up feeling like a lousy RPer. So yeah, level 3 start I say.

Anyway, I doubt it will happen but I'll beat the horse a bit more.

I know this is 'very' unlikely but there is a way to utilise this in a positive way and you have given me food for thought- so I'll just say my bit.

People think- and rightly so, each level must be earned. Why not have Level 2 earned a different way? Say a start of 500xp if they are seen to be RPing appropriately or exploring their concept, and a further 500 for a submitted Bio? Earning level 3 could be done by IC creative works such as a journal or artwork, or simply time and robust RP doing some form of training. (say a month or so if they have not naturally reached level 3.)

It would be a useful boost and give an injection of creativity, as well as a goal to the player on what they want to achieve next instead of 'grinding'- and in my humble opinion would be a lot more fun.

Just a thought anyway.

[kid]

There are two arguments. if we disregard the "Well, that's ALFA..." argument which is not an argument but simply stating the fact on which we're currently debating...

1. Players are power hungry bastards.
2. It's not fair!

The first can be easily disproved and the second is just bloody childish.

Both would have some merit if this was a PW, but from where I'm looking it not a PW and haven't been one for a long time.
Seriously, who has the time to grind in order to get back into the fry and play with friends?

by the way, when I thought ALFA was a PW I was strongly against anything but a lv1 start.
But it just isn't one anymore.

We're all adults with a mutual love to stupid games.
We're too old for this bullshit.

[Zelknolf]

What other factor is involved in the starting level besides power?

The context which you enter. Again, in the wrong place if you want a PC in a vacuum.



The rest of my response to your points can be split into two basic categories--
1) You seem to be conflating "immersive RP" with "the status quo for Dungeons and Dragons." -- ALFA is, of course, not the status quo for Dungeons and Dragons.
1a) The expected game as presented by the source books has 4-8 players (we have 60-65 lately) who meet once a week and never progress anything outside the confines of a DMed session (whereas we persistently host our world). RP is light (our core descriptions say 'hardcore' and 'immersive') and disrupted routinely by socialization (which is frowned upon here), and there are actually no other options than to roll a new character of like level to have your friend continue to play after one dies (a problem that we don't have-- note Shadowfax's and Adanu's DMing).
1b) You seem to at the same time demand to portray your character in ways that real people would clearly not behave, because the game is called Dungeons and Dragons, and complain that our current policy of equating character death to ceasing to be capable of participating in the things that the dead character used to as likely to encourage the "OOCly" behavior of placing a premium on survival. These two things are directly contradictory. Either you want poorly-portrayed characters who bash in doors and stab dragons (or fight drug cartels or skulk about the territory of brutal dictators), because stupid implausible risk is fun, or you want plausible characters. To those who want plausible characters first, your premise doesn't appeal-- I'm not trying to turn ALFA into an action server; I think that's a terrible idea, and think that the fear of death is an effective narrative device in current circumstances. People should fear the reaper, both for themselves and their friends, and they should make realistic efforts to ensure the survival of both.

2) You seem to be very unhappy with the static content and also unwilling to work on it. Everyone reading this post is smart enough to make static content; the question is if they want better content enough to work on it-- the absence of "possibility" is laughable; the Aurora engine is incredibly flexible, and I note that the times we have to hit things which are "hardcoded" or which we can't get around, we're talking about efforts to either change the foundational rules or dramatically extend the scope of the engine (and even then, Aurora's flexible enough that it often works anyway: see NWNx4 and CLRScript). I won't pretend it's a perfect engine; NWN2 has a lot of problems with it and its developers had to take a lot of shortcuts to get it out the door on time and on budget, and that's no small part of why my work is never done, but claiming that it's not possible write compelling static content? After claiming that someone else has a "a complete lack of creativity"?

[Xanthea]

The context which you enter. Again, in the wrong place if you want a PC in a vacuum.

The fact that every PC is level 1 is more damaging to immersion than "some PCs have experienced some things before they were played".

1b) You seem to at the same time demand to portray your character in ways that real people would clearly not behave, because the game is called Dungeons and Dragons, and complain that our current policy of equating character death to ceasing to be capable of participating in the things that the dead character used to as likely to encourage the "OOCly" behavior of placing a premium on survival. These two things are directly contradictory. Either you want poorly-portrayed characters who bash in doors and stab dragons (or fight drug cartels or skulk about the territory of brutal dictators), because stupid implausible risk is fun, or you want plausible characters. To those who want plausible characters first, your premise doesn't appeal-- I'm not trying to turn ALFA into an action server; I think that's a terrible idea, and think that the fear of death is an effective narrative device in current circumstances. People should fear the reaper, both for themselves and their friends, and they should make realistic efforts to ensure the survival of both.

I don't know what to say to this other than I really hope this view is in the extreme minority around here, and I think it is.

2) You seem to be very unhappy with the static content and also unwilling to work on it. Everyone reading this post is smart enough to make static content; the question is if they want better content enough to work on it-- the absence of "possibility" is laughable; the Aurora engine is incredibly flexible, and I note that the times we have to hit things which are "hardcoded" or which we can't get around, we're talking about efforts to either change the foundational rules or dramatically extend the scope of the engine (and even then, Aurora's flexible enough that it often works anyway: see NWNx4 and CLRScript). I won't pretend it's a perfect engine; NWN2 has a lot of problems with it and its developers had to take a lot of shortcuts to get it out the door on time and on budget, and that's no small part of why my work is never done, but claiming that it's not possible write compelling static content? After claiming that someone else has a "a complete lack of creativity"?

It is not possible to make good static content on ALFA not because of any limitations of the engine, but out of limitations of the playerbase. Good static content first and foremost requires a reasonably sized group of similarly leveled characters to enjoy the content with, and even the absolute best static content on the best server out there suited to it (not ALFA), is decidedly inferior to anything with a DM. Furthermore, ALFA's punitive death system means any static content is pretty much required to be throwing softballs or it risks damaging the playerbase further with pointless deaths.

It is not possible to make static content that serves as anything other than a way to kill some time while waiting for a DM to show up, in any PW. And ALFA's low playerbase and high level spread makes the prospects even worse. People who focus on static content as a cure to ALFA's woes are wasting their time. It's a nice thing to have around, but it isn't a solution.

[Rumple C]

Ding dong, the witch is dead.

Yep, you're out of the campaign (barring re-joining with a fresh pc), but that "risk" made all the time you were in it all the sweeter.

High risk, high reward.

Back to square/level 1?

Indeed, but those low level pc's do level up fast, esp in those new campaigns you've been offered. So...

/me checks his watch

Ronan was way late on killing Gwylla.

[HEEGZ]

I'm DMing almost nightly. You are welcome to roll a new PC and get the XP boost to level 3 that many PCs have enjoyed. My first two PCs died in a campaign group and both times I rejoined with a new level 1. It is possible to do and by the time I retired my third PC from the group I had already reached level 4 after 2-3 months of play. Just roll up one of the Forgotten Ones as a PC perhaps?

OGR is right in his recollection. We did some extensive testing of level 1 combat and it is really lethal until around level 3. For this reason I try to award near maximum value XP for all level 1 and 2 PCs, though I should probably award more. I lobbied for DMs to be able to set XP last year but I doubt it will get anywhere. You can quickly get a PC to level 4 on BG or TSM by running statics and making an effort to link up with a DM. There are more problems with DMs having enough PCs now, than PCs lacking DMs, for US nights.

Low level play can be very fun and permadeath is one of the core draws of ALFA. It's not a punishment but a gaming high while it lasts IMO.

[Regas]

Two thoughts on this-

First, in the SE campaign we regularly had players start with new toons at level one. The way xp works by the time the regular toons move from 7th to 8th the new guy is nearly 5th. When your toon joined the group she was highest level of the bunch, but there were folks with three and four fewer levels, it all worked out. Yea you might need to hang in the back for a few games but everyone can contribute whatever the level, and I'm sure the group would not mind having you start a new toon.

One idea that might be a good compromise is to allow campaign pcs that allow house rules like starting at whatever level, playing vampires ect, but not allowing these pcs to mix with regular toons and not use the vault. Non-alfa campaigns need to be played in a different sand box, but we could look into a host that could put up a duplicate of our servers as needed by the campaign groups. Then we could accommodate regular campaigns that don't fit into all the rules of alfa without disrupting alfa's rules.

[Xanthea]

Ronan was way late on killing Gwylla.

She was supposed to die in your campaign but you're just a big softy that stubbornly resisted taking every single dangling hook offered.

Ronan cleaned up your mess, bub.

It is possible to do and by the time I retired my third PC from the group I had already reached level 4 after 2-3 months of play.

Okay clearly there's some disconnect here. Where you say "already" I say, "Wow that's slow to the point of absurdity".

permadeath is one of the core draws of ALFA. It's not a punishment but a gaming high while it lasts IMO.

And I specifically said that I have no problem with death. Death is fun, adventurers should die a lot, it's a dangerous profession.

The punishment is in how the system works after that death.

[Xanthea]

When your toon joined the group she was highest level of the bunch, but there were folks with three and four fewer levels, it all worked out.

Respectfully, this worked out because a lot of you guys played a ton out of session and caught up in xp that way. Option isn't open if you don't do that.

One idea that might be a good compromise is to allow campaign pcs that allow house rules like starting at whatever level, playing vampires ect, but not allowing these pcs to mix with regular toons and not use the vault. Non-alfa campaigns need to be played in a different sand box, but we could look into a host that could put up a duplicate of our servers as needed by the campaign groups. Then we could accommodate regular campaigns that don't fit into all the rules of alfa without disrupting alfa's rules.

Campaign PCs with special restrictions or whatever are fine, and a good way to proceed, yes.

[Regas]

you know, i think some of us did rack up xp out side the campaign awhile, a few didn't so there's still a spread on levels. I still think you'd catch up quick, but not having much time to play is limiting.

One sever I played on briefly allowed you to put half your xp from an existing toon into a new toon, sorta an interesting concept.

[Adanu]

So that's a no on my Road of Blood campaign?

[Mick]

For me the worst part of dying in an established campaign was not the loss of a powerful PC, but rather the loss of an established place in the campaign. More than a campaign, it was a campaign comprised of players with whom I am friends and with whom I enjoy playing on a consistent basis. I found (find) it difficult to try to roll up a new PC and then just fall in on the group. Even forgetting that survival is a challenge in such situations, incorporating a new persona in the established group can be daunting and can take up valuable time that might be otherwise be spent, you know, doing campaign-related stuff. For me just jumping on board with some new toon because the other players are my friends did not cut it. It felt forced. It did not feel true to the story. Not everyone sees it that way, but that's how it was for me.

So what is the answer? I'm not sure. I used to be staunchly opposed to above a 1st level start. I don't think I am so opposed to it now. The game has changed, both objectively and subjectively to me. I would like story to rule the day, but I'm not even convinced putting a bio to paper is worthwhile anymore.

[Heero]

Anyone want to start a campaign with me? Ive got a gnome named Gnome who is a druid with a wolf named Wolf and some other guy, also, who is funnily a druid, as well. Itll be fun.

[Twin Axes]

I'll jump in and grind my war axe since everyone else is doing it. I've said it before, I would like level progression to be fast up to level 4, and then slow down dramatically. Many or most long term PCs would hover between 4 and 6, and an 8 or 9 would be as rare as a 20 (or whatever Alfa tends to reach). That way, a new PC would not have such a depressing level gap to cover but would feel useful from the get go if joining a group of veterans.

Dedicated campaign servers that duplicate Alfa would be my wet dream though, all I want is PnP with the RP level of Alfa. I'd be so there.

[oldgrayrogue]

I'll jump in and grind my war axe since everyone else is doing it. I've said it before, I would like level progression to be fast up to level 4, and then slow down dramatically. Many or most long term PCs would hover between 4 and 6, and an 8 or 9 would be as rare as a 20 (or whatever Alfa tends to reach). That way, a new PC would not have such a depressing level gap to cover but would feel useful from the get go if joining a group of veterans.

Dedicated campaign servers that duplicate Alfa would be my wet dream though, all I want is PnP with the RP level of Alfa. I'd be so there.

Just start at level 3 and get on with it. Honestly, make progression as slow as you please after that.

I know people like campaign servers but I actually like playing in a PW. I think the pure RP between players in ALFA has suffered. People tend not to just log on to play with each other any more. That sucks. I rolled a ranger on BG recently and made it my mission to try to RP with every player I met. What made that possible was Heegz gnoll invasion back story at the time. I had what I thought were amazing RP sessions (yes including adventuring!) with Zelk, and with Piggy and with quite a few others, with no DM at all, just a nice server wide back story for context. It really made walking around empty roads meaningful, especially when gnolls were left around trying to kill us. TBH some of the most immersive, cathartic RP I have ever enjoyed has just happened spontaneously between me and another player. And no I don't mean that you pervs.