FIRE SALE at Bans R' Us!

[Swift]

and most likely, I don't have all the facts to actually pass judgement so it might be unfair of me to actually express an opinion in any specific case.

So why continue to perpetuate the myth that people get banned without warnings or counselling if you do not have all the facts to pass fair judgement on it?

Because people passing judgement without having all the facts is why we're here in the first place and I was making a point on how ludicrus it is. The same reason not to give people another chance is the same thing that I did just now. I form an opinion without knowing anything really. It's dumb.

So you were doing something dumb to try and prove that something ALFA has done is dumb...despite the fact it was not dumb at all and banned players are given many chances to reform before getting the boot?

I like the cut of your jib.

[boombrakh]

and most likely, I don't have all the facts to actually pass judgement so it might be unfair of me to actually express an opinion in any specific case.

So why continue to perpetuate the myth that people get banned without warnings or counselling if you do not have all the facts to pass fair judgement on it?

Because people passing judgement without having all the facts is why we're here in the first place and I was making a point on how ludicrus it is. The same reason not to give people another chance is the same thing that I did just now. I form an opinion without knowing anything really. It's dumb.

So you were doing something dumb to try and prove that something ALFA has done is dumb...despite the fact it was not dumb at all and banned players are given many chances to reform before getting the boot?

I like the cut of your jib.

[/sarcasm]

[kid]

Any punishments aim is to guide and diract behavoir.
Punishments are not given out of spite or hate.

Considering this having bans be for a temporary period then having people return on probation or somesuch is not a bad idea.

Unless we go and say that the people we ban are unfixable, evil, and that we hate them....
I dont think we are tho, are we?

[dergon darkhelm]

I've been indirectly involved in only one banning-level event in my time in ALFA.

I was loitering around in game in 2005 and Heegz logged in to inform me about the investigation underway about my corpse looting and why I would do such a thing. At the time I was playing the PC Malcer Angalstrand under my same gsid merado_1

In shock I answer that I have no idea what he's talking about but he informs me that there has been an ALFA log investigation underway for weeks looking in to my inappropriate behavior.

After no little amount of distrubance and anxiety on my part eventually it is discovered that another ALFAn lost his overwealthed character while farming spawns on BG. He went out of his way to create a character named Malcer Angalstrond using the gsid merado-1. With this PC logged in, looted his previous character, and then dumped the loot in a hidden p-chest. He then created another new PC later and claimed the loot from a p-chest. He did all this in a blatant attempt to make it look as if I did it!

He was banned.

Do I want that a**shole back in ALFA? NO f*cking way!

[Xanthea]

Wouldn't it be simple enough for a previously banned person to just rejoin under a different name anyway? If they really wanted to play then they could probably already be playing.

Actually, we have ways to detect this. Its not impossible but is difficult to do. I can recall one person who did so, and then got caught cheating again and was banned a second time. Incidentally, I knew that player from another PW where we played together for years before ALFA. He was an exceptional RPer and all around swell guy who also happened to flaunt the rules.

Well I meant they could probably change their IP and get new CD keys and such if they really cared that much.

[Swift]

With NWN2 not being on any digital distribution platforms and only on limited estores, it's actually harder than it previously would have been. Perhaps one of the only benefits to NWN2s lack of availability.

[oldgrayrogue]

Wouldn't it be simple enough for a previously banned person to just rejoin under a different name anyway? If they really wanted to play then they could probably already be playing.

Actually, we have ways to detect this. Its not impossible but is difficult to do. I can recall one person who did so, and then got caught cheating again and was banned a second time. Incidentally, I knew that player from another PW where we played together for years before ALFA. He was an exceptional RPer and all around swell guy who also happened to flaunt the rules.

Well I meant they could probably change their IP and get new CD keys and such if they really cared that much.

Yeah, my real point was that he got banned again. There are a lot of really good RPers out there who for one reason or another just can't bring themselves to play by the rules. Not everyone is unable to change, but old habits die hard.

[CloudDancing]

I've long found the three strike rule completely unfair.

I saw two good players be forced to leave because of behavior I attribute to becoming mentally unhinged and acting erratically.

They just needed a month long ban to sit in the corner and think about what they did.

My other unfortunate incident is when Sion was banned because he reported to me another character was trying to get him to metagame. Because he first tried to help, being that he did not want to be a bad friend, then backtracked and realized what he was doing before he had actually gone to heal up the person who combat logged in a bad spot and asked him to come save them; he was banned entirely. It was a third strike. The other person did not get banned.

Again a two week ban would have been in order or even less. The player that did this TO him should have had a month long or more plus a strike.

IF you have a chance look back into all the players that have been banned and in fact, some don't even have reasons. I read a few that got banned even were proven to not be cheating or metagaming or anything and were banned entirely from Alfa WITHOUT ONE STRIKE and completely circumventing the processes in place. I suspect due to the span and size of Alfa NWN1 that these things happened more out of a misuse of power, but also the complete distance of a set rotating group of admin that simply did what they wanted because in most cases, no one knew what was going on in the background, and simply no one stood up when injustices occurred to challenge them or even investigate.

The worst thing anyone has ever done in Alfa over time is to sit back and not question, not fight, and let the rules be circumvented for the sake of "friendship." But also the worst thing is to sit back and let Admin decisions like banning go unquestioned. And truthfully I have fought tooth and nail for every player that had good roleplaying skill but turned up in the logs doing something obviously illegal right up to the point where they lied to me as a DM, they kept repeating the behavior after I warned them, and all my and my HDM's good graces had been exhausted.

I believe in natural consequences for simple acts and moments of mental instability. I believe in going as far as three month bans. I don't believe any good roleplayer should ever be banned except for extreme situations which include harassment, stalking, haking the game, cheating the system, dm favoritism, and completely ignoring the guidelines and purpose of RP.

As for amnesty, just let it happen. There are three players out there I know who just needed somet time to cool down and think.

[boombrakh]

I've been indirectly involved in only one banning-level event in my time in ALFA.

Spoiler:

I was loitering around in game in 2005 and Heegz logged in to inform me about the investigation underway about my corpse looting and why I would do such a thing. At the time I was playing the PC Malcer Angalstrand under my same gsid merado_1

In shock I answer that I have no idea what he's talking about but he informs me that there has been an ALFA log investigation underway for weeks looking in to my inappropriate behavior.

After no little amount of distrubance and anxiety on my part eventually it is discovered that another ALFAn lost his overwealthed character while farming spawns on BG. He went out of his way to create a character named Malcer Angalstrond using the gsid merado-1. With this PC logged in, looted his previous character, and then dumped the loot in a hidden p-chest. He then created another new PC later and claimed the loot from a p-chest. He did all this in a blatant attempt to make it look as if I did it!

He was banned.

Do I want that a**shole back in ALFA? NO f*cking way!

Completely understandable reaction. But what strikes me as strange here is that in 2012, almost 2013, you are still angry. What you describe happened in 2005, since then seven years has passed and the person that is today could be completely different from who they were then. If I were in your situation, I would much rather want that person to come to me, now seven years later, to ask for forgiveness and explain to me why he did what he did. Or am I the only one who thinks that people can change? Hell, more than one person here has pointed out how much different I am from the guy they remember back before I returned. And quite frankly, to everyone aside from the people I liked in ALFA, I was a dick.

Anyways, I am sorry that happened to you. But I would urge you to try and not let people get under your skin to the degree that you still hold grudges against people you havn't met after seven years.

[Ithildur]

Big difference between being angry at someone (which I doubt Dergon still is after all this time) and making the call that the person is not a trustworthy person.

Is there a remote chance the person might've changed? Sure. But that doesn't mean Dergon's being less than reasonable for being skeptical.

[Veilan]

Or am I the only one who thinks that people can change?

I believe people can change for the worse, how's that?

What I envision is an expungment process that allows members in good standing to request the removal of strikes based on some length of time (two years for one strike, three years for two? For instance).

What we really need is some kind of 6-strike-cap, at which point other users will have to to gather 15 forum posts on behalf of the user, or he will get 1 further strike per day until he gets to 10 and is banned, which then can only be reversed with De Beers vouchers for the Admins.

[dergon darkhelm]

I harbor no remaining anger from the event.

What I do have is a desire to see ALFA be a place with membership that undersatnds and follows its rules.

I want to keep an application to prove some basic understanding of RP. I like have the strike system. I think that people who are unable to control their online behavior enough to not getted banned are highly unlikely to be a good fit in the community at a time in the future.

My use of profanity was not meant to display anger, but more to give a sense of my emphatic feelings on this topic.

I think the net density benefit of allowing previously banned players back into the community is outweighed by the liklihood that they continue their cheating, griefing, or general douchebaggery upon their return.

[Castano]

I think the net density benefit of allowing previously banned players back into the community is outweighed by the liklihood that they continue their cheating, griefing, or general douchebaggery upon their return.

And drive existing members away. Let one in and lose two? Sounds like a win for me. Like I said individual cases Sion, pinkpink etc. can be brought up on their own. I do agree with boom that we should look into lifting certain bans with a probationary period.

[Rotku]

IF you have a chance look back into all the players that have been banned and in fact, some don't even have reasons. I read a few that got banned even were proven to not be cheating or metagaming or anything and were banned entirely from Alfa WITHOUT ONE STRIKE and completely circumventing the processes in place. I suspect due to the span and size of Alfa NWN1 that these things happened more out of a misuse of power, but also the complete distance of a set rotating group of admin that simply did what they wanted because in most cases, no one knew what was going on in the background, and simply no one stood up when injustices occurred to challenge them or even investigate.

Who? I know Andrew was, and then there was that Kelgorn guy. Neither were real abuse of powers, and both were made with the fullest of information. I do think both were handled poorly and in the wrong way, but what you say above (if referring to these situations) is a load of mis-information.

As for this thread in general, I have two comments to make as a past PA. During my terms as Player Admin, I have perhaps banned three, maybe four people. I can say with absolute honesty that none of them was banned lightly, with each one weighing down upon me. I'm the type of person that takes everything to heart, and having to ban a player (especially the couple who I have got on well with) hurts. Just ask Curm how much I've had to spend talking to him in order to try and convince myself I've done the right thing. However, in the end of the day I don't think any of the bans I put in place were the wrong decisions or made with the wrong intentions or information.

Second, in saying that, there has been one time in the past, to my knowledge, that someone has been unbanned. He's still around today and contributing to the community more than most people. He approached the Admin a few years after getting banned and make a good case so was unbanned. I believe it is documented for the DMs and Admin to read, if they want precedence.

[dergon darkhelm]

OK -- you want to make it a supermajority of admin who think a person has reformed or was unjustly removed and reinstate membership. Fine.



But no blanket amnesty.