Legendary PC's and issues

[Veilan]

So what we're talking about now basically is how to integrate high level / background / maintenance PCs into your regular play?

There are several layers to address this.

First layer, PC creation. Players maybe should not aim to be the best, most exceptional, most creative PC with tremendously DM-attention grabbing tie-ins. A couple suffice, but setting yourself up to be the king of Skullport is going to frustrate most DMs and fellow players alike. Keep things in perspective, you are not playing alone - you certainly cannot hope to be "the chosen one", since this is a PW populated by fellow players. In a PnP setting with only one adventuring group and with buddies, it might work - here, it's going to cause issues.

Second, once they're higher level, behaviour player wise. Wanting to barge in on every three goblin quest may frustrate your DMs and fellow players, and if you play along anyway despite it probably not being worth your attention, take cues from the DM, play the rearguard, watch out for others more than trying to outdo them. Talk to your DM whether he wants you to hang back or take the lead, and you should be able to work out something that lets you all enjoy your time together. Working together in mixed level groups can be extremely rewarding fun wise, and if it is anything, it is realistic - people rise to the task and opportunity as they are available and fit, a PW does lean slightly to the side of simulation.

Third, DM expectations and behaviour. Some DMs outright shut-out higher level / legacy PCs, which is of course counterproductive: If you have nothing else at all to do, even those three goblins may just be worthy of attention - it's either that or sit on your ass. We don't play an adventuring game to sit on our asses (well, most of us). Also, talk to the players and cooperate with them, most are happy to play along with your requests and ideas and are able to take hints. As long as everyone gets their share of spotlight, everyone is happy - that means the legacy PC should not always take the spotlight, but that also means you should not exclude them entirely. If you need advise on how to do it, I suggest talking to HEEGZ, Hialmar, Spiderjones, Chamu and viigas, all of whom had an excellent hand balancing parties of sometimes huge level gaps. Finally, don't make epic quests, then say "level 3 max". If you want to move things on a larger scale to set up and establish newer PCs, you may very well be breaking immersion easily and frustrating folks. Scale quests and campaigns to the desired audience, because this is a PW - if you make a quest that sounds like level 12+, you can be sure level 12+ people will eventually show, even though you had in mind that your level 3 favourite group solves it.

[Rick7475]

My experiences in the past with legendary PC's prompted me to write this post.

When PC's reach a certain level, such as 10+, most ALFA servers in the past did not have enough content for such PC's. However, Daggerford did. That server had a ton of content for a level 10+ party, that is how it was designed.

However, the problem was that we could never get a group of 10+ level PC's together for a party. So, we would be stuck with 7 or so 1 - 7 PC's and then 1 level 10+ PC popping in. Naturally, such a PC would have some sort of reputation, ie a great warrior, and super cleric, and magestic mage, whatever. So, if they were in a party, naturally, the creatures fighting would either be too tough for the party or too easy.

RP'ing groups where the gaming was focused on RP'ing would certainly work, but you also have the issue of RP'ing why a legendary PC, say a 12th level fighter/hero, your RP'ing group of level 3's might be in awe or asking for autographs.

So, the solution I had in mind was not a level cap, but trying to get Legenday PC's with Legendary PC's to make (gasp) an adventuring party!

The problem I had doing this before was that some legendary PC's founf d their comfort zone, in others words, they became too concerned about dying and did not want to take riskes. Others were stuck on servers too far away, hopefully in NWN2 this won't be an issue with 2 or 3 servers.

If you have an adventuring party, then you can create the typical DM / Party RP'ing situation.

However, if you have a lone legendary PC, well, what do you do with him/her when your server is populated with level 1 - 7?

Typically in PnP, everyone levels the same and you continue with the adventures with everyone the same level.

So, what DM's and players need to do is try and ensure legendary PC's stick together as a party, otherwise, the one legendary PC hogs DM attention because one super PC wandering around a hamlet requires more DM work than a party of 8 level 1 - 3 PC's wanderong around the hamlet. This is why DM's shy away from high level PC's.

So, if you happen to be fortunate enough to have a PC over 10, to help DM's out, try and work out a party of other PC's your level. It can be done, however, lets try and keep the baggage to a minimum and work together.

[Mikayla]

Getting all the "Legendary PCs" together in one party is a fun idea, but not all that practical. For example, with the retirement of Viigas's PC Faenor Bital, I believe the three highest level active PCs in ALFA are Hignar (MShady), Azune (Veilan) and Sheyreiza (me) - and I cannot imagine trying to form a party with the three of them. It is true, that during the Shade war mega-plot on TSM that Sheyreiza cooperated with Hignar, and its true that in Skullport Sheyreiza asked Azune for help in recovering Tel's body, but given what has transpired since then, its hard to imagine a scenario that would bring these three "Legendary" PCs together without immediate bloodshed ensuing.

From my perspective, the two biggest problems I have had playing a high-level evil drow PC are:

(1) Finding a place to Play - during the 2 years NU existed, things were great - but for the years before and the years afterward, it is not so great at all.

and

(2) Death of your "friends" - evil PCs eventually turn on each other, in way or another, and drow doubly so - I have seen most of the people I like to RP with die alongside my character - or on my character's blades. By sticking to hard-core role-play, I have eliminated the very people I like to play with. It just plain sucks.

[Veilan]

Why, certainly, we could sit down and have a nice cup of tea together?

Mik has a point though, where and with whom people play is not so much a product of their level, but of IC and OOC dynamics of gravitating where you have the most fun, coverage in your timezone, friends and fitting playstyle. Playing with new and not known DMs is always difficult (just as it is difficult to DM players that are new and unknown to you) but more so if it's a tip of your toes kind of scenario. I reckon Mshady might for instance not trust indio to run such a quest, while I might have reservations about Vendrin, and Mik may not like Rusty DMing, and so on.

The idea in theory is good, and it's nice that someone would feel comfortable offering higher level content, but I guess learning how to cope with mixed populations is more important first, as it's the more likely scenario to emerge from natural demographics. Course, it won't be an issue for a while in NWN 2... in NWN 1, it still is an ongoing one, though.

In fact however, without too much meta, it seems that three of ALFA's four highest level PCs are playing together in the same campaign currently - and it appears to be fun for everyone involved, including the DM.

[fluffmonster]

A legendary PC who is going to take on a facilitator role needs to coordinate with and in some cases become subordinate to the DM, taking on a quasi-space between PC and NPC. That's what is hard to do...the player has to let go of some control and that starts to cross several boundaries. The natural forces are *against* it happening is all I'm saying.

[wvincenti]

*shrugs*

There is plenty of opportunity for a high level PC to take on students or friends or lackeys as long as they have the resources to make it work and as long as they don't get carried away twinking. It was an interesting challenge providing aid in the form of advice and the occassional CLW spell as a low to mid-level cleric some years back and only stepping in if it became obvious that I was about to lose someone in the Party. Glorfindel got pretty good after awhile at keeping the team alive. (Bless them, other than Gloryfiddle, the team still is alive. )

There are also more than a few DMs who won't shy away from high level PCs. At least they don't have to worry about sneezing and killing an entire party.

Now, finding a DM or two who will support your grand idea to start something big I've seen be a big challenge as in starting a military order or even a corporation in game. (Loads of RP opportunities dealing with shifty border guards, bribing city officials and local mob bosses; oh yeah, and getting mugged on the way to market. Ok, making some gold wouldn't hurt either.)

If a DM has some issue with PCs who've had the nerve to live a long time and put on some levels fine, let them tell me and I'll go find another DM. Tisn't that big a deal to me unless it turns into a snipe hunt. Heck, there isn't much need to hunt down the high level PCs anyhow how many went and found a way to get themselves killed right about when they hit 12th? Lots. Glorfindel is in some darn good company. *chuckles*
Daggerford, Loudwater ... heck, most ALFA servers could find a way to kill a high level PC if a DM wasn't around and the Player got cocky or bored.

If a high level PC horns in on something the other Players or DM don't want them in on politely send them packing.

-Bill

[JaydeMoon]

I see above that Mikayla has identified the first three PCs to undergo mandated retirement

In Soviet ALFA, Hignar retires you!

That gave me a real chuckle!

In the end, some DMs can and will DM 'legendary' PCs, others won't. If you (the DM) want to give it a try, more power to you.

But I think what needs to happen is understanding from both sides. DMs should understand that these players still want to play and should be given good opportunities, but the players of these PCs should understand that they aren't entitled to DMage by any particular DM.

There are a lot of reasons why those DMs might not feel comfortable DMing a high level PC. If they don't, don't take it personally and let it lie. I imagine SOMEONE will DM you.

[Misty]

I demand minions.

[Leevoth]

So high level PCs are good right? Everyone likes uber-powered, self-righteous snobs, right?

Nah, just kidding.

Besides, what would The good ol' FR be without a few level 15 demi-gods walking around. There's plenty of 'em anyway, they just end up being kings and what not.

[Mikayla]

Misty:

I demand minions.

Been there, done that - its totally overrated. After going through three castles and three armies, two cities and three wars, and who knows how many lesser minions, I can safely say its a lot easier to live without the minions. They are a pain the ass. And don't even get me started on their ludicrous excuses for showing up late to work, their outrageous demands of the HR department, the constant whining about the health and dental plans, etc.

[JaydeMoon]

And then they want fair treatment!

As if all minions are created equal. Pffft.