FIRE SALE at Bans R' Us!

[Magile]

A lot of cases in permanent bans lately have involved attempts at rehabilitation. In fact, many areas dealing with criminals or simply wrong-doers will always attempt some form of rehabilitation so they may proceed to be back in society as a decent individual (this coming from someone who works at a methadone clinic, FYI); however, just because someone is given the opportunity to have this occur... doesn't mean it will solve anything. Be it from spite, misunderstanding or just plain ignorance, a lot of attempts will become futile and the same patterns will persist over and over again -- and in many cases of the permanent bans, this is exactly what happened. Rehabilitation and hand-holding occurred, with an attempt to show the err of their ways... which allowed for spiteful attitudes and actions to happen.

This entire thing would have to be a case by case handling, not just a pure blanket of everyone ever banned. The fact is, there are individuals we do not want back, and in some cases these individuals are classified as criminals for actual theft or destruction of ALFA property (Lafter, anyone?). This is a lot of work that you aren't requesting, but attempting to force on, those that are in the Admin position.

[Sidhe]

We gave out amnesty at Exodus. A few players came back (some of which are also banned here). They didnt cause grief and became productive members of the community.

Its quite simple:

Those removed from the community for serious actions (OOC harassment of any kind etc) leave banned.

Those removed for violation of one of the many rules send an invite amnesty email to. If they come back and begin to paint the town red - ban them again without any formal Hague dispute process.

How hard is it? The Chicken Little reactions from people are getting old.

[maxcell]

Your face has grown and matured.

[Castano]

Boom blanket amnesty will fail because some of the bans were not for mechanically cheating - they were out and out asshattery to other members or because the person was sadly mentally unstable or both. Those people do not need to come back.

For cases where it was cheating etc. we can and should look at each case for reinstatement. That includes some of the questionable ALFA1 bans, but IIRC these were washed away when ALFA NWN2 came about?

As usual because we do not 100% support boom's great leap forward (TM), you are upset. Sorry we have our reasons to not want a blanket amnesty and it's a bad idea.

[Heero]

I already said I forgive pinkpink. What more do you people want?

[Swift]

I love how so many people hate Game B but happily offer up or support ideas that will require some DMs to spend more time on it. Let people banned for asshattery/farming/self-looting back in and that immediately ensures a DM on one of the servers needs to spend time out of game going through logs or watching forums to see if said asshat/farmer/self-looter is reformed or has fallen into their old habits.

Not saying yes or no to the idea, just pointing that out.

[boombrakh]

Boom blanket amnesty will fail because some of the bans were not for mechanically cheating - they were out and out asshattery to other members or because the person was sadly mentally unstable or both. Those people do not need to come back.

Aside from quite a few asshats still in this community and one who is typing a reply right now, not everyone will stay asshats. Hell, it's been what, a decade since I joined ALFA? There are quite a few things that has changed in my life that has made me less of an asshat. People will always disagree and some will always have a preconcieved notion about some others. We won't all like eachother and pretending we do is just a recepie for disaster. But I can see your point of view, even if I prefer to give it a shot and you are not. Then how about a compromise? Say we send out e-mails to everyone telling them that there is a way for them to reapply to ALFA and then the few that will, can be judged on an case to case basis. I mean, it shouldn't be any more of a problem than what the team that rejects or accepts applications now are doing anyways. Perhaps just a bit more work is all, seeing as we're not swimming in applications (afaik). Let that team make a judgement call on each case and then present it to the PA.

As usual because we do not 100% support boom's great leap forward (TM), you are upset. Sorry we have our reasons to not want a blanket amnesty and it's a bad idea.

With "we", I assume you are speaking for some unknown silent majority seeing as there is only a handful of people who has given their opinion in this matter. To be fair though, those who have are just about the same people who are the only ones who ever gives opinions, so I guess it is as much input as we are going to get. Also, to be clear, I am surprisingly not upset. I am however trying to argue my point, and I am doing it in a way that is honest, which might come off as a bit abrasive I guess. If so, I am sorry.

You are correct however that I am an advocate of progress and I'll probably always be an advocate for progress.

I love how so many people hate Game B but happily offer up or support ideas that will require some DMs to spend more time on it. Let people banned for asshattery/farming/self-looting back in and that immediately ensures a DM on one of the servers needs to spend time out of game going through logs or watching forums to see if said asshat/farmer/self-looter is reformed or has fallen into their old habits. Not saying yes or no to the idea, just pointing that out.

I'd say you aren't really just pointing something out. You are flat out giving an opionion absolutely drenched in negativity. I have no issue with debating an opinion, arguing a point. But saying you aren't taking "sides" while still arguing a "side" is just bad form. I welcome your opinion.

The kind of behavior you are describing is already in effect. Just because we don't talk about the fact that there are scripts designed to keep tabs on players and actively look for cheaters doesn't mean they don't exist. It is just another sign that we really don't trust our players. I know that they've done good in the past, but they also breed a hostile and paranoid community. We are taught as DMs to be ever vigilant, to always be on the lookout for people abusing the system. I agree that we should deal with people who cheat in a strict and harsh manner, but to keep tabs on everyone just in case they are a potential cheater? Leaves a bitter taste in my mouth at least.

But I'm getting off point. I'm not here to discuss the 1984 scripts, I just want to try to get people to look at former players and reconsider if a permanent ban really is the best solution. I have no problem with having someone banned for a year or two for being an asshat. I mean, we should all be able to be civil towards eachother and if you can't follow that rule, then perhaps this community isn't for you. But when it comes to someone who cheats or abuses the system? Hell, taking away their gain and then some along with a really stern talk would hurt way more than a permanent ban.

My 2€

[Swift]

I agree that we should deal with people who cheat in a strict and harsh manner, but to keep tabs on everyone just in case they are a potential cheater? Leaves a bitter taste in my mouth at least.

I would bet cash monies that the vast majority of players have not even had their logs looked at since they joined ALFA, so I hardly see it as a severe case of Big Brother. Additionally, how would you suggest we catch those cheaters who you yourself say should be dealt with in a strict and harsh manner?

But when it comes to someone who cheats or abuses the system? Hell, taking away their gain and then some along with a really stern talk would hurt way more than a permanent ban.

There are likely quite a few ex Player Admins rolling their eyes at the belief that people are just banned straight up, rather than being talked to first about why they shouldn't be doing what they are doing. Indeed as you well know, the last couple of PAs were very fond of finding informal resolutions through discussion with the involved players, rather than reaching straight for the banhammer.

I think the myth that we just ban people without trying to help them first really, really needs to go away. We ban very, very few people and I would imagine if you looked at each person banned, there would be a repeat pattern of behaviour that did not change despite warnings and official strikes.

[Castano]

and piles of warnings I might add Swift...piles of them, big steaming piles of of please stop doing X. followed by fusk you i'm doign it anyways you are persecuting me!!!

[boombrakh]

I would bet cash monies that the vast majority of players have not even had their logs looked at since they joined ALFA, so I hardly see it as a severe case of Big Brother. Additionally, how would you suggest we catch those cheaters who you yourself say should be dealt with in a strict and harsh manner?

I stated above that I am not really interested in discussing the issue of player surveilance in this thread.

There are likely quite a few ex Player Admins rolling their eyes at the belief that people are just banned straight up, rather than being talked to first about why they shouldn't be doing what they are doing. Indeed as you well know, the last couple of PAs were very fond of finding informal resolutions through discussion with the involved players, rather than reaching straight for the banhammer.

I am sure there are quite a few people who'd like to believe themselves very collected, calm and objective as well as capable to finding informal resolutions to problems. To some degree they probably are as well. I know that when the farce between me and Zelknolf went down, danielmn handled it pretty well and Regas was great as well. Then again, I've witnessed danielmn make equally dumb calls. But that is all highly subjective and most likely, I don't have all the facts to actually pass judgement so it might be unfair of me to actually express an opinion in any specific case.

I think the myth that we just ban people without trying to help them first really, really needs to go away. We ban very, very few people and I would imagine if you looked at each person banned, there would be a repeat pattern of behaviour that did not change despite warnings and official strikes.

Well, to kill a "myth", you need to prove otherwise. Pretty hard, I would imagine, seeing as we're actually not doing anything about it.

[oldgrayrogue]

Yeah Boom, in ALFA you only get banned if you really, really deserve it, and then sometimes you still don't get banned. I have been an AR for a while, and did a stint as PA, trust me, anyone who has been banned in the last 5 years deserved it. That said, I'd offer amnesty on a case by case basis with the understanding that if you break the rules again you are summarily rebanned.

[Swift]

and most likely, I don't have all the facts to actually pass judgement so it might be unfair of me to actually express an opinion in any specific case.

So why continue to perpetuate the myth that people get banned without warnings or counselling if you do not have all the facts to pass fair judgement on it?

[boombrakh]

and most likely, I don't have all the facts to actually pass judgement so it might be unfair of me to actually express an opinion in any specific case.

So why continue to perpetuate the myth that people get banned without warnings or counselling if you do not have all the facts to pass fair judgement on it?

Because people passing judgement without having all the facts is why we're here in the first place and I was making a point on how ludicrus it is. The same reason not to give people another chance is the same thing that I did just now. I form an opinion without knowing anything really. It's dumb.

[Xanthea]

Wouldn't it be simple enough for a previously banned person to just rejoin under a different name anyway? If they really wanted to play then they could probably already be playing.

[oldgrayrogue]

Wouldn't it be simple enough for a previously banned person to just rejoin under a different name anyway? If they really wanted to play then they could probably already be playing.

Actually, we have ways to detect this. Its not impossible but is difficult to do. I can recall one person who did so, and then got caught cheating again and was banned a second time. Incidentally, I knew that player from another PW where we played together for years before ALFA. He was an exceptional RPer and all around swell guy who also happened to flaunt the rules.