Time in ALFA - Spells

[kid]

Taking down 10min spells to 1min is just as bad as keeping them at 10min. Doing that to stoneskin would harm balance and weaken wizzards far too much.
I think the magic number is around 5 minutes.
About a 1/3 of our suggested hour.
At lv 6 let's say it allows you 30 min activity.
Which allows protection for a the end stretch of a dungeon crawl possibly.
Out of 4 hours active play you'll be protected for around 12.5% of the time.
Longer than 4% of his time he would get in pnp, but not 25% or more that he would have gotten if we keep with 10mins. (That can be wrongfully come close to round the cloak prot if you memo em twice - a thing that would be much harder with 5 mins)
A situation where you can have a 10min buff at all time is wrong. But just the same you can't have them fade with a bit of talking.
5min would serve both causes I believe.

[Ithildur]

Time still moves faster than it should in the situations where it's most critical (inside a dungeon) 9 times out of 10 if there is any amount of RPing, dialog, descriptions, skillchecks etc going on. There's no need to make time go by even faster by doubling the rate at which 10 min/lvl spells expire (making them 1 minute is ... completely arbitrary. May as well suggest making all spells min/lvl or take them out altogether, or give kobolds 300hps and +30ab while we're at it). Compressing hourly spells makes some sense because past lvl 3 or so, every hourly spell would outlast an average 3 hour session which inevitably means the spells are in place through overland/long distance travel (which is fine at higher lvls, but not so much at lvl 3).

That's really the only time 10 min/lvl spells are a problem, when there's long distance travel involved. It might be a bigger problem if ALFA featured random encounters more often during overland travel, but for some reason this classic element of the game is rarely a factor in ALFA.

A group RPing bantering, taking their time etc in a dungeon (or a DMed group) will be getting ripped off/punished for choosing to RP if 10 mins are halved; on the other hand, soloists and groups that tend to tear through dungeons at breakneck speed will not be bothered much.

Which type of play do we want to encourage? To point things back on topic, I think the reason why an overwhelming majority of ALFAn's want hourly spells to last longer, and for time in general to not zip by so quickly, is because they want to RP more, for better sense of immersion, and for things to make more sense.

[I-KP]

...I think the reason why an overwhelming majority of ALFAn's want hourly spells to last longer, and for time in general to not zip by so quickly, is because they want to RP more, for better sense of immersion, and for things to make more sense.

That's largely why I voted Yes. No, actually, that's entirely why I voted Yes.

[kid]

You simply ignore the fact that you are not supposed to be covered with 10min spells for the entire duration of the adventure and likely not even the entire duration of a dungeon crawll. In fact they should likely fade while crossing one outdoor screen in cloak wood.

Keeping them at 10 allows you better coverage with those powerful Buffs that a lv20 wizard would get. So sure if you put them at 5 they might fade at times..., sometimes they'll fade when they are not supposed to.

But they would still be on longer than they should compared to time IG and time every passing day. Most times they would still linger a longer than they sHould.
I find it to be a reasonable compromise that allow you a long time with your houly (really cast and forget) and a good duration with you 10min but one you have to be somewhat careful with (after all a spell that lasts between 10min and a couple of hours is not something you simply cast and forgert about. You use it when needed - even a dungeon crawll is not meant to take 2 hours - searching, scouting ahead etc. it's not a wham bam thank you mam type of thing and usually your 10min should not co cover all of it but should be used to overcome lets say the more dangerous second floor or whatnot)
Anyway do what you guys want but don't go and tell me that the wanT to be corvered with 10min buffs for the entire duration of play is close to PnP (because its clearly not) or that its about RP (if anything
Being more careful with using those spells and worring when they might be over is better RP)

[Ithildur]

You simply ignore the fact that you are not supposed to be covered with 10min spells for the entire duration of the adventure and likely not even the entire duration of a dungeon crawll.

At higher levels, say a lvl 11 character's 10 min/lvl spells last nearly two hours. If the spell is cast is inside a dungeon and the following 2 hours are spent mostly inside the dungeon, then there's no reason why the spell shouldn't last a bulk of the remainder of the session... especially if 45 minutes of those 2 hours are spent typing stuff that ICly take 10 minutes.

Keeping them at 10 allows you better coverage with those powerful Buffs that a lv20 wizard would get.

etc.

Err... what??

[kid]

Keeping them at 10 allows you better coverage with those powerful Buffs that a lv20 wizard would get.

etc.

Err... what??

Explained it before....
A lv20 wizard would get protection from his 10min buffs for 200 mins a day. that is... 3 hours and 20 minutes out of 24 hours. about 14-15% of the day.

Your lv11 gets it for 110 minutes. 2 hours out of lets say 4 hours of play. that is nearly 50% of the time. Memo it twice (as you'd usualy do) and you get 100% of the time IG covered by 10min buffs.
Thats something even the lv20 wizard is not getting, and its unreasonable. You are not meant to walk around with those buffs all the time. Effectively keeping them at 10 mins would get you just that.

And yeah... at lv11 it would last even at 5 mins for 55 mins. thats enough for most of the combat portion of a good adventure.
Not for the first few fights maybe but defently enough for the end streach, as its meant to be.

[Ithildur]

Not sure where you're getting the idea that it's normal to prep two castings of the same 10/min lvl spell... I guess Keren does? *shrug*

Regardless, if someone did do that, the lvl 11 guy casts it once say upon arriving at a dungeon, has it for 2 hours, casts it again if it's an unusually long session in the dungeon, using up another precious slot... what exactly is the problem? If the dungeon crawl session is only 2 hours, he has it for 100% of the time with just the first spell. Again, what's the problem? 25%... 50%... 100%... the percentage of time logged in/length of session inside the dungeon is irrelevant. If Persephone is logged in for an hour, she can have a min/lvl spell extended to cover her for over 50%+ of the time she's on; does that mean those should be nerfed too? Completely irrelevant.

Again, the problem is if there's longer distance travel involved (in which case, that actually might merit a double memorizing of the same spell, once for overland travel encounter, once for dungeon use, or both used during traveling if the PC is paranoid). The problem isn't with the spells, but area design due to NWN2 limitations. If we want to, we can enforce/restrict use of 10 min/lvl spells while overland traveling certainly... would make sense especially if going from SM to RM took enough time to allow resting en route. *shrug* Completely viable and ICly makes sense with a DM present.

But since we don't have such a system in place sans DM currently, just use restraint when casting 10min spells while traveling; factor in the fact that you cannot rest while/after traveling even though it might make perfect sense ICly, and it comes out about even (actually it comes out weighted against casters still and is partly why 10min spells are overvalued, but that's an entirely different topic), i.e. "This is a long trip... my 10min spell which would've lasted 2 hours might be gone, but I would've rested on the way and gotten the spell back anyway at some point, especially when it really mattered, or prepared an entirely different set of longer lasting spells, extended them, double memmed them just for the trip before resting, etc."

[Zelknolf]

If Persephone is logged in for an hour, she can have a min/lvl spell extended to cover her for over 50%+ of the time she's on; does that mean those should be nerfed too?

I would note that kid's argument involves re-casting spells to try to make some dramatic point, which I'd answer by noting that any sorcerer or favored soul with a double-digit level can keep all of their minute/lvl buffs up all the time with extend spell and a willingness to recast the short-duration ones (well, except for the few minutes it takes to sleep, I suppose), and the same for wizards and clerics whose levels are hitting the teens: which is why longer mechanical hours are a nerf. Long-duration spells are still up all the dang time (as they should be), but short-duration spells won't have as much relative coverage as recharges are farther away. We can make the argument that playing in shorter spurts mitigates this-- and that'll always be true, and the specific length of the hour won't matter to those players: a game day will continue to be "longer than the amount of time I play for" to them, and long-duration spells will still be up "until I'm done playing."

[kid]

All true. But im talkign avarage play time (or maybe slightly longer) of 4 hours. a regular session or so.
Being covered in that session with 10min buffs without any feats, or anythign like that is not what the 10 min buffs are about. Possibly if your adventure is only in a dungeon than maybe they should last all your time in dungeon. (though really I dont see anyone finishing a dungeon in 2 hours.)
But most defently if you are not in a dungeon there should not last all the time of your play.

So again, yeah, sometimes they'll run too quickly, sometmies they'll last too long. can't solve all the problems with out time scale.
Question is where is the balnace.
Its not at 10mins=10mins.
(which I understand you dont wanna admit cuase you like your 10mins a lot)

[Ithildur]

ya cuase i like mah 10 minutes a lot i memorize like 2 spells outta 16 slots or so sure do like em yaya ah also try to cast em every chance ah get before overland travel to cheatz yaya ya know me too goodz ya ah don't wanna admit it ya ya got me goodz

[kid]

They should likely fade even when walking one UD screen or one outdoor screen.
The only time they should not fade is in a small dungeon.
thats not the majority of adventures.

The question is simple.
Can a PnP caster have 10 min buffs last all day without a few feats (presistant, extanded) and a very high level toon?
No.
Can an ALFA charceter have those buffs cover them all day without said feats and level?
Yes. Easily.

[Ithildur]

Walking one UD screen or outdoor area does not automatically = 2 hours, but few would disagree that long distance travel is far from accurate in ALFA.

We also know none of the spell durations will ever be completely accurate ICly; doubling the duration of hourly spells will still mean people still get cheated when in a long dungeon crawl, and 10 minute spells occasionally at higher lvls will last longer than they should even with 'local' travel, just as a knowledge check or a brief conversation usually lasts far longer than they should ICly and cause min/lvl spells to expire prematurely. Throw in the lack of scaling with long distance travel and yes, sometimes you get more mileage than you should, just as sometimes you get less. It's just not going to be perfect unless you want to propose some system where spell durations pause every time someone types something or buffs get dispelled when going through ATs.

The main point/result of the poll I believe clearly shows a simple reality; 7 minutes to an hour is an extreme nerf no matter how you cut it. People aren't asking for perfection or for hour lvl spells to last 60 minutes - they just want our current imperfect abstraction of time to not gimp this area so damn hard.

[kid]

Yes, if we ignore the questions of balance between chars...
the suggestion would still effectively increase the power of casters.

At the very least it should tone it down a notch with other things.
I know I actually enjoy being careful with my spells.

However i've an armor suit on while I play so I get why its more scary for wizards.
And still...
I think it would serve us better to do this hourly change, it would be good, but only if we make sure we are not simply impowering casters. theres no need for that.

I was a strong supporter of changing Cleric domains, as it did weaken them (very slightly).
shortening 10mins would effect wizards far more than clerics without a doubt (as much as i love conviction is not match for heroism, spideskin, etc)

But I would be equally happy if we could do something with the shield and weapon casting that would weaken our clerics a tiny bit.

Increasing hours would give my dude a power boost and so would it give our mages.
Some balance should be kept.
Lowering 10mins duration is the only way to do it.
AND its not OOC to do.
As I said... sometimes they'll run out too quickly, but many times they'd last too lost as it is now.
So... *shrugs*, dont see why we argue about it so much.

Not shortening 10mins gives mages an overwhelming advantage imm. that would be shame.
Anyways... again, we running in circles here.

Voting for hourlies is clearly something people want, so fine, lets do it.
Question is what we do to balance it.
If you have other suggestions - shoot.
If not ... then i dont think it would be responsible to do it.

[Ithildur]

I was a strong supporter of changing Cleric domains, as it did weaken them (very slightly).

Kid... in all seriousness honestly I'm not sure if we're playing the same game. *scratches head* Anyway... waaay off topic

[kid]

The topic is balance.
Not simply how long spells would last.

Changing one thing and thinking it does not impact the whole is naive.

(Also: go to sleep!)