I am saying goodbye to ALFA
Moderator: ALFA Administrators
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psycho_leo
- Rust Monster
- Posts: 1162
- Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2006 2:10 am
- Location: Brazil
I'll refrain from jumping in any bandwagon, either to crucify or sanctify Rusty, but from what Rick said I don't think he quit just because of the DM app, especially since he did it, as you pointed out, after sending his application. The last drop seemed to be more about the whole beta 1/beta 3 debacle.Veilan wrote: What really bothered me in this was Rick quitting after he finally took the time to send in his App, forcing something that was on the way to its resolution to become what we see now. I can understand him being fed up after he ran and lost on a "no DM app" platform, but that is a bad starting point to try to force the acting DMA to change it just for him.
Current PC: Gareth Darkriver, errant knight of Kelemvor
Se'rie Arnimane: Time is of the essence!
Nawiel Di'malie: Shush! we're celebrating!
If at all possible, could someone see fit to shut this one down? It is beginning to have an adverse effect on Admissions, and I do not like putting time into something that is/will be waisted.
Thanks!
Daniel M Noah
Thanks!
Daniel M Noah
Zyrus Meynolt: [Party] For the record, if this somehow blows up in our faces and I die, I want a raiseSwift wrote: Permadeath is only permadeath when the PCs wallet is empty.
<Castano>: danielnm - can you blame them?
<danielmn>: Yes,
<danielmn>: Easily.
"And in this twilight....our choices seal our fate"
Veilan: It is not about me sending in a DM App. I can write a hundred DM Apps.
It is about trying to compromise with someone who refuses to compromise. We offered a compromise. It was refused. I relented and sent in a DM App, and in reponse I was told I needed to do more. It is an on going game. I do what he says, he demands more to satisfy his ego. Sorry, I lost faith.
But the most important point of all that you are missing is that I CANNOT GET DM's. No one wants to jump hurdles filling out a redundant app as former DM's when they have years experience. A most important, no one I approached wants to work for Rusty.
I cannot convince good DM's with loads of experience to join or send in an app that is insulting for them to do. Indio wouldn't do it (until he was forced to take HDM), and others won't.
Oh I am sure there are those that will: where are they? You saw the way he treated me, and that's not what it is about, this is the way he will treat all potential DM's applying. Nobody wants to put up with his crap except a select few who are NOT APPLYING as DM's, but already are. It's a drastic thing to remove a DM, but it's easy to make new rules and hurdles for potential Apps.
Remember one thing, I came into TSM when there was NONE OF THIS, NO DM APPS, NO NEW RULES.
If I had known the hurdles that face DM's now, I would NOT have taken up TSM. I would have refused like many of the DM's I am trying to recruit.
These changes were put into effect while I was told I was a FULL DM.
You don't get it. He changes the rules and makes new demands. This is why most people won't work for him.
Existing NWN1 DM's DON'T HAVE TO EXPERIENCE THIS. They are not seeing a DMA playing games to approve them as DM's or their server. Beta 1 my ass.
Oh yeah, I can tell him to bugger off, but then I'm not a DM already. You see, in a way on the boards I did tell him to bugger off, and ytou see what happens, he makes more conditions for me becoming a DM.
I compromised. But he never did. So, call me what you want.
Veilan, you don't get it. I sent an App thinking that was it, but it wasn't.
Now, since Rusty still has not responded in any way: How do you plan on attracting experienced ALFA DM's for NWN2? Or any DM's?
It is about trying to compromise with someone who refuses to compromise. We offered a compromise. It was refused. I relented and sent in a DM App, and in reponse I was told I needed to do more. It is an on going game. I do what he says, he demands more to satisfy his ego. Sorry, I lost faith.
But the most important point of all that you are missing is that I CANNOT GET DM's. No one wants to jump hurdles filling out a redundant app as former DM's when they have years experience. A most important, no one I approached wants to work for Rusty.
I cannot convince good DM's with loads of experience to join or send in an app that is insulting for them to do. Indio wouldn't do it (until he was forced to take HDM), and others won't.
Oh I am sure there are those that will: where are they? You saw the way he treated me, and that's not what it is about, this is the way he will treat all potential DM's applying. Nobody wants to put up with his crap except a select few who are NOT APPLYING as DM's, but already are. It's a drastic thing to remove a DM, but it's easy to make new rules and hurdles for potential Apps.
Remember one thing, I came into TSM when there was NONE OF THIS, NO DM APPS, NO NEW RULES.
If I had known the hurdles that face DM's now, I would NOT have taken up TSM. I would have refused like many of the DM's I am trying to recruit.
These changes were put into effect while I was told I was a FULL DM.
You don't get it. He changes the rules and makes new demands. This is why most people won't work for him.
Existing NWN1 DM's DON'T HAVE TO EXPERIENCE THIS. They are not seeing a DMA playing games to approve them as DM's or their server. Beta 1 my ass.
Oh yeah, I can tell him to bugger off, but then I'm not a DM already. You see, in a way on the boards I did tell him to bugger off, and ytou see what happens, he makes more conditions for me becoming a DM.
I compromised. But he never did. So, call me what you want.
Veilan, you don't get it. I sent an App thinking that was it, but it wasn't.
Now, since Rusty still has not responded in any way: How do you plan on attracting experienced ALFA DM's for NWN2? Or any DM's?
Oh, and yes, please shut this thread down.
We all know Rusty is not going to be removed. TSM will go live, it is practically ready now (esp if it was with NWN1 standards), save for whatever new changes Rusty throws in like the beta 1 game.
As a player it will be great, 1 server, lots of players to make your own fun, with 2 or 3 DM's.
We all know Rusty is not going to be removed. TSM will go live, it is practically ready now (esp if it was with NWN1 standards), save for whatever new changes Rusty throws in like the beta 1 game.
As a player it will be great, 1 server, lots of players to make your own fun, with 2 or 3 DM's.
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FanaticusIncendi
- Illithid
- Posts: 1725
- Joined: Sun Dec 19, 2004 9:58 am
- Location: Exile
I debated on posting the extent of my thoughts in the public forum. In the end, I have decided that transparency to the membership on where I stand is a good thing.
And on the heels of a drama just recently passed.
Most troubling is his final statement, "Oh well." I'm not sure exactly what that means, but I imagine it is layered and meant to say a few things.
I have been thinking long and hard about this issue. It is very difficult to say what is for the best of ALFA. I do not have 100% insight into the issues, Rusty's way of thinking, or anyone else's.
But it was stated earlier that:
Obviously there are some who have not seen that side of Rusty and so defend him, most notably Veilan, who maintains that his 'disagreements' with Rusty somehow are equivalent to Rusty's abusive tone taken with others and if Veilan is able to shrug it off, then why shouldn't others?
There is also the 'rule' that says that for every instance of activity that you learn about or is reported, there are more instances that you'll never hear about.
Rusty has, to hear it from several, chased away or limited contributions from many people who would have otherwise been happy to help.
I have heard people saying that somehow, Wynna is trying to take over an 'rule' ALFA. I can't fathom where they are coming from, as they have nothing that can support that claim. Meanwhile, Rusty pretty much has had the well-being of the community in his hands and seems to be squandering it. We may have gotten to live under his watch, but it's still taken a year and a half, a majority of that while he was the DMA. Who's to say that with someone else running the show in his shoes we wouldn't have had more active builders, more people willing to contribute as DMs to this project?
Instead we are losing more builders and more DMs. I worry about a project where everyone that actually holds the pieces is infuriated with the system, most notably with one part of that system... a part that has no real positive control on those pieces but somehow feels like it is the master of them all.
And what this does for our reputation, while we are gearing up our PR machine, I can only imagine.
I did not feel that Rusty was the best choice to continue in the seat of DMA. However, 17 voters did and I was content to go along with that.
I question the wisdom of a recall at this time. If Rusty maintained that level of support, then what good would it do? It would, as Rusty says, reward drama. Of course drama was quite rewarding for Rusty when he resigned and then publicly aired the Admin's laundry on his bid for DMA. He says that there is no good reason that we cannot take a path where we work together with him, but I wonder if it he truly means for us to work with him or simply expects us to follow his lead. Regardless, I think all four of his peers on the Admin can think of several good reasons.
All of that said, I would like to point out a few things:
Most of what I have said above I have purposefully used the past tense. i have great doubts about Rusty's ability to be an example for this community, a true leader as opposed to someone just bullishly slogging ahead.
I have myself been a target of his arrogance and maltreatment. HOWEVER. Rusty apologized to me for that treatment and I chose to accept that apology. For me, that means Rusty has a chance to prove himself. On a personal level, he has done nothing to disprove his sincerity.
On a community level, Rusty continued to pursue the DMA office on a promise:
Now what we have here is a sort of acceptance that Rusty is going to be a changed person, but not giving him the time to see if this is the case. My gut reaction on Rick's departure is shock and anger, aimed at Rusty and his unwavering ways. But I realized that most of Rick's frustrations come from dealing with Rusty over an extended period of time, all of it before Rusty's promise to 'change'.
I look at the straw that broke the camel's back and it seems trifling to me. The PM Rusty sent Rick concludes that Rick should be the HDM but that it is dependant on Rick being responsible in that position. Perhaps it was just too much after everything else Rick had to go through, but nothing about the message itself is demeaning, sarcastic, insulting, or even leading one to reasonably believe that Rusty intended not to give Rick the position, as 'promised'.
But that's what straws are - small part of a large haystack. And it's a final small straw for Rick that has sent him packing. It is unfortunate, but to recall Rusty over it, this soon after the election is robbing him of a chance to prove that he meant it when he said he would change. To prove that he meant it when he said he was sorry.
I have disagreed with many aspects of Rusty, but I told him I would extend him a chance, to work with him in a professional manner. A majority of his constituency felt that was enough and that he should get that chance.
I'm for giving it to him.
The most I will do, contrary to that position is say the following:
If Rusty truly has the best interests of the community at heart, he might consider resigning as DMA and putting his considerable experience/expertise and full support behind the next individual to take the office. I personally feel that is where he would do the most good.
However, I do not support a motion to recall him at this time.
This is one of the things that bothers me the most about this issue. Here we are, veritably on the eve of Live, pushing to get new members in and the first thing they are going to see is this.oldgrayrogue wrote:I must say that all of this is very distressing to a new ALFA'n looking forward to LIVE who has been actively recruiting other players to RP here. Oh well .....
And on the heels of a drama just recently passed.
Most troubling is his final statement, "Oh well." I'm not sure exactly what that means, but I imagine it is layered and meant to say a few things.
I have been thinking long and hard about this issue. It is very difficult to say what is for the best of ALFA. I do not have 100% insight into the issues, Rusty's way of thinking, or anyone else's.
But it was stated earlier that:
Indeed, there seems to be no lack of stories from people who have felt that Rusty has personally antagonized and maltreated them. We have seen literal examples of this from some people and been assured that they are not everyone.danielmn wrote:......people are tired of waves being made, always seeming to involve one person.
Obviously there are some who have not seen that side of Rusty and so defend him, most notably Veilan, who maintains that his 'disagreements' with Rusty somehow are equivalent to Rusty's abusive tone taken with others and if Veilan is able to shrug it off, then why shouldn't others?
There is also the 'rule' that says that for every instance of activity that you learn about or is reported, there are more instances that you'll never hear about.
Rusty has, to hear it from several, chased away or limited contributions from many people who would have otherwise been happy to help.
The utter hypocrisy of that statement aside, Hialmar response to it is correct in that being the DMA does not make Rusty anyone's Boss. However, I am not certain Rusty understands this concept. He has refused to treat this community as just that, a 'community' where hobbyists have come together to enjoy a game that everyone loves and instead treated it like an organization that needs hard rules, lest people somehow 'get over'.Rusty wrote:There is no need to engage in forum warfare to solve disputes, and I will not tolerate ALFA DMs doing so.
I have heard people saying that somehow, Wynna is trying to take over an 'rule' ALFA. I can't fathom where they are coming from, as they have nothing that can support that claim. Meanwhile, Rusty pretty much has had the well-being of the community in his hands and seems to be squandering it. We may have gotten to live under his watch, but it's still taken a year and a half, a majority of that while he was the DMA. Who's to say that with someone else running the show in his shoes we wouldn't have had more active builders, more people willing to contribute as DMs to this project?
Instead we are losing more builders and more DMs. I worry about a project where everyone that actually holds the pieces is infuriated with the system, most notably with one part of that system... a part that has no real positive control on those pieces but somehow feels like it is the master of them all.
And what this does for our reputation, while we are gearing up our PR machine, I can only imagine.
I did not feel that Rusty was the best choice to continue in the seat of DMA. However, 17 voters did and I was content to go along with that.
I question the wisdom of a recall at this time. If Rusty maintained that level of support, then what good would it do? It would, as Rusty says, reward drama. Of course drama was quite rewarding for Rusty when he resigned and then publicly aired the Admin's laundry on his bid for DMA. He says that there is no good reason that we cannot take a path where we work together with him, but I wonder if it he truly means for us to work with him or simply expects us to follow his lead. Regardless, I think all four of his peers on the Admin can think of several good reasons.
All of that said, I would like to point out a few things:
Most of what I have said above I have purposefully used the past tense. i have great doubts about Rusty's ability to be an example for this community, a true leader as opposed to someone just bullishly slogging ahead.
I have myself been a target of his arrogance and maltreatment. HOWEVER. Rusty apologized to me for that treatment and I chose to accept that apology. For me, that means Rusty has a chance to prove himself. On a personal level, he has done nothing to disprove his sincerity.
On a community level, Rusty continued to pursue the DMA office on a promise:
While Wynna's response did not conclusively accept that as grounds for Rusty to continue and Rotku expressed reservations, I was content to take Rusty at his word. Along with the requirement for not gaining an infra strike I think comes the knowledge that he is walking on eggshells and the threshhold for what is strikable is somewhat lower for Rusty, the DMA, who should be held to a higher standard, after all.Wynna: I'll make the receipt of no future Infra strikes a condition of my continued occupancy of the role, i.e. another and I'll resign, immediately. How does that sound?
Now what we have here is a sort of acceptance that Rusty is going to be a changed person, but not giving him the time to see if this is the case. My gut reaction on Rick's departure is shock and anger, aimed at Rusty and his unwavering ways. But I realized that most of Rick's frustrations come from dealing with Rusty over an extended period of time, all of it before Rusty's promise to 'change'.
I look at the straw that broke the camel's back and it seems trifling to me. The PM Rusty sent Rick concludes that Rick should be the HDM but that it is dependant on Rick being responsible in that position. Perhaps it was just too much after everything else Rick had to go through, but nothing about the message itself is demeaning, sarcastic, insulting, or even leading one to reasonably believe that Rusty intended not to give Rick the position, as 'promised'.
But that's what straws are - small part of a large haystack. And it's a final small straw for Rick that has sent him packing. It is unfortunate, but to recall Rusty over it, this soon after the election is robbing him of a chance to prove that he meant it when he said he would change. To prove that he meant it when he said he was sorry.
I have disagreed with many aspects of Rusty, but I told him I would extend him a chance, to work with him in a professional manner. A majority of his constituency felt that was enough and that he should get that chance.
I'm for giving it to him.
The most I will do, contrary to that position is say the following:
If Rusty truly has the best interests of the community at heart, he might consider resigning as DMA and putting his considerable experience/expertise and full support behind the next individual to take the office. I personally feel that is where he would do the most good.
However, I do not support a motion to recall him at this time.
Currently otherwise occupied.
I'm not involved with this drama, I just want to play and was looking forward to TSM going live. Two people I have recruited to ALFA are expressing their doubts to me about coming to stay thanks to this thread.
After reading all of this thread it seems like Rusty is really good at following the written rules exactly as they are written. For better or for worse. And perhaps sometimes willfully exerts them in ways that hurt others.
I understand the need for rules and such, I really do. But when having so many rules and hoops and bells and whistles that the original goal to have a fun server to roleplay on gets lost in it all then people need to step back and rethink what they are doing. On both sides of this issue.
Too much bureaucracy not enough gaming.
After reading all of this thread it seems like Rusty is really good at following the written rules exactly as they are written. For better or for worse. And perhaps sometimes willfully exerts them in ways that hurt others.
I understand the need for rules and such, I really do. But when having so many rules and hoops and bells and whistles that the original goal to have a fun server to roleplay on gets lost in it all then people need to step back and rethink what they are doing. On both sides of this issue.
Too much bureaucracy not enough gaming.
"Two people I have recruited to ALFA are expressing their doubts to me about coming to stay thanks to this thread."
I repeat, please close this thread. It is not doing any of us a lick of good.
Enough is enough.
DAniel
I repeat, please close this thread. It is not doing any of us a lick of good.
Enough is enough.
DAniel
Zyrus Meynolt: [Party] For the record, if this somehow blows up in our faces and I die, I want a raiseSwift wrote: Permadeath is only permadeath when the PCs wallet is empty.
<Castano>: danielnm - can you blame them?
<danielmn>: Yes,
<danielmn>: Easily.
"And in this twilight....our choices seal our fate"
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Nalo Jade
- Githyanki
- Posts: 1407
- Joined: Thu Dec 23, 2004 1:27 pm
- Location: Paso Robles, CA (-8 GMT)
- Contact:
No I understand that, but the cause of the recall is the question.Hialmar wrote:A DMA has been recalled before.
It's not new Nalo and we had good DMAs after that.
What will the grounds for the recall be?
How will it be worded so that it doesn't sound like a veiled attempt to allow some DMs to circumvent sending in new Apps. Or worse that one HDM can simply over rule the DMA by threatening to leave unless the DMA is removed. That sets a bad precedent that will weaken any future DMA, the DMA position will be wholey at the mercy of any popular (and Good) HDM.
DMs are more important than any other facet of ALFA, we have had some great story tellers and then we have had some very very bad DMs.
Just because you DMed for NWN1 does not grant you a free pass, some of the previous DMs sucked and the only way to weed them out while being fair is to set a new standard and have everyone re-apply. If everyone makes it through that standard then its not a new standard, its just a check in the box. My guess at this point is that some of the DMs that find the re-app process insulting are ones that have some fear of being rejected.
Rejecting sucky DMs that have been allowed to continue to suck for years and have lots of friends is a hard thing to do. If that are that good they should not fear another application. I can think of a few "popular kids" that SUCK as DMs, I hope they do not make it to NWN2.
But Rusty, you do apparently suck. In such a public position you have to restrain yourself.
When Rick finally sent in his app, if it was good enough you should have just said.
You are approved, thanks for taking the time to do that. I am just trying to keep everyone to the same standard. I am excited to see things started, is there anything I can do to help you or your team?
NOT, say well I may approve you but first, you must now tell me ... and promise to... and if I catch you doing this ...
That was uncalled for. Rick submitted to your demands adding more demands even seemingly little ones is just ego-mania. Of course he didn't wait around to be approved, he was tired of playing your childish game. When in a glass house...
"The reasonable man adapts to fit the world. The unreasonable man adapts the world to suit him. Therefore all progress is achieved by the unreasonable." - unknown
removed self from forums, contact via E-mail. Adios.
removed self from forums, contact via E-mail. Adios.
RIght, since the originator of this post has requested it be locked,
and a person in some minor postition in Admisssions has also requested the thread be locked due to adverse effect....
and a person in some minor postition in Admisssions has also requested the thread be locked due to adverse effect....
Zyrus Meynolt: [Party] For the record, if this somehow blows up in our faces and I die, I want a raiseSwift wrote: Permadeath is only permadeath when the PCs wallet is empty.
<Castano>: danielnm - can you blame them?
<danielmn>: Yes,
<danielmn>: Easily.
"And in this twilight....our choices seal our fate"
I am
Zyrus Meynolt: [Party] For the record, if this somehow blows up in our faces and I die, I want a raiseSwift wrote: Permadeath is only permadeath when the PCs wallet is empty.
<Castano>: danielnm - can you blame them?
<danielmn>: Yes,
<danielmn>: Easily.
"And in this twilight....our choices seal our fate"
Now bringing...
Zyrus Meynolt: [Party] For the record, if this somehow blows up in our faces and I die, I want a raiseSwift wrote: Permadeath is only permadeath when the PCs wallet is empty.
<Castano>: danielnm - can you blame them?
<danielmn>: Yes,
<danielmn>: Easily.
"And in this twilight....our choices seal our fate"
this thread...
Zyrus Meynolt: [Party] For the record, if this somehow blows up in our faces and I die, I want a raiseSwift wrote: Permadeath is only permadeath when the PCs wallet is empty.
<Castano>: danielnm - can you blame them?
<danielmn>: Yes,
<danielmn>: Easily.
"And in this twilight....our choices seal our fate"
To page....
Zyrus Meynolt: [Party] For the record, if this somehow blows up in our faces and I die, I want a raiseSwift wrote: Permadeath is only permadeath when the PCs wallet is empty.
<Castano>: danielnm - can you blame them?
<danielmn>: Yes,
<danielmn>: Easily.
"And in this twilight....our choices seal our fate"
Ten...
Zyrus Meynolt: [Party] For the record, if this somehow blows up in our faces and I die, I want a raiseSwift wrote: Permadeath is only permadeath when the PCs wallet is empty.
<Castano>: danielnm - can you blame them?
<danielmn>: Yes,
<danielmn>: Easily.
"And in this twilight....our choices seal our fate"