Static Content

[orangetree]

Unfortunately the days of "just group up" are over. 90% of my time is spent in game either alone or with OT who (no offense) intentionally plays PCs who by the nature of their build presence is even more likely to get me dead by having to run in and bail out her AC12, 14hp bard or whatever.

just to defend myself here a bit, Sophia's base AC is 14 and I have an armor that gets it to 19, and my HP is 28. my bard songs will give you +1 damage to anything, for an entire party. The heavy crossbow will generally do about 8hp damage or maybe more. She is a 'decent average' char in terms of a battle.

... But I agree it's not good enough.

[shad0wfax]

ALFA in general is at a slightly reduced population. Attributing that to the changes being made on one server, and misrepresenting the changes on that server is not constructive, nor does it have any basis in fact.

There are changes being made to the loot system in ALFA; the DMA and TA are the points of contact there, but I believe that it is accurate to say that loot may be given a slight bump. I have been a vocal advocate that CR12+ demons should not drop "short swords" as loot, given their risk. Slaying 20+ Hezrou should not result in 400 GP, accessible only if you have a bag of holding to put short swords into. Note that ACR handles loot ALFA wide, and that servers can not (or should not) deviate from that behavior. Note that XP advancement is handled by DMA overall, and only by extension on individual servers; I believe that this is on the block to get a slight bump as well.

These changes to the system require time, and require the DMA and TA to collaborate together on the specific details of what is to be changed, how much is to be changed, and how that change is to be implemented. This is not something that happens overnight.

After reading the rest of the post, I note that every complaint listed, whether fully accurate, or misleading, is BG specific. BG is not ALFA Genral / NWN / D&D discussion. BG specific changes belong in the BG forums and I will address them there. The expression of gratitude for the quests is also BG specific.

With that in mind, please keep this thread on topic about ALFA-wide changes to the quest/loot/XP systems that we have, and speak in generality, rather than detailing specific BG issues.

[oldgrayrogue]

I assume you are referring to my comments about BG SF. The OP was about static content ALFA wide and referenced changes made to BG statics. I think most changes recently have been made to BG, kudos to the BG team. It is perfectly appropriate for members to discuss those changes here, in response to the OP. Members of ALFA are not restricted to discussing specific servers only on that server's forum. I don't believe I have misrepresented any of the changes made to the BG server. My comments were meant to be constructive in response to the OP. Saying my comments have no basis in fact is basically calling me a liar on a public forum and is frankly offensive. If you cannot accept constructive criticism then don't read the forums.

[Zelknolf]

So, more information is clearly one part of this--

-- Folk don't know how hard things of a given CR can hit, or how easily it can hit (like you'd expect a martial-focused CR 1 creature to have about +4 to hit-- that's just normal), and don't know how to best leverage their abilities to best the sort.
-- Folk don't know where to find content that has appropriate CR, and are of hesitant to investigate because getting it wrong tends to mean loss of a PC (and there are no shortage of stories to tell us that ALFA will kill you for a stern dedication to adventure), and folk are perhaps not good at getting away from danger when they're outclassed (maybe? Folk who have lost characters, how often do you get away when you try to run?).
---- Related, folk might not know about more complex or interesting static content. Like you can indeed get a magic item for completing a quest in ALFA (or, rather, a chain of quests-- advancing so slow means that we have to be stingy to prevent a wealthsplosion, but we can definitely "save up" the advancement from many tasks to justify dropping a useful item).

Some challenges that exacerbate this:
-- Hard to find groups, as ad hoc bumping into PCs is unlikely to create groups of similar levels and quests to be completed.


Are there things I'm missing/misrepresenting or other obstacles that aren't yet said?

[Rumple C]

I think a static guide wouldn't be a bad thing. Ie: where to find static content suitable to low/mid/high level groups.

[Darkmystic]

Questlines that gives magical items? I dont believe it

[dergon darkhelm]

Unfortunately the days of "just group up" are over. 90% of my time is spent in game either alone or with OT who (no offense) intentionally plays PCs who by the nature of their build presence is even more likely to get me dead by having to run in and bail out her AC12, 14hp bard or whatever.

just to defend myself here a bit, Sophia's base AC is 14 and I have an armor that gets it to 19, and my HP is 28. my bard songs will give you +1 damage to anything, for an entire party. The heavy crossbow will generally do about 8hp damage or maybe more. She is a 'decent average' char in terms of a battle.

... But I agree it's not good enough.

It's not meant to be critical. It just what it is. When it's just us 2 in game it's either tavern RP, walking A- B, or chatting in tells.



We're not going to have a conversation like "Hey, wanna go explore the wyvern caves?"

[Zelknolf]

Questlines that gives magical items? I dont believe it

One of them is even on the public record
http://www.alandfaraway.org/phpBB3/view ... 30#p615914

As part of a series of posts explaining to hopeful toolsetters how to make static content more complex than being FedEx with a sword, with the one on loot being an example of how to math out your gear to adventure ratio. Though have a look at the screenshot in the post linked: the options include a ring of fortitude +1 and an amulet of will +1.

I think a static guide wouldn't be a bad thing. Ie: where to find static content suitable to low/mid/high level groups.

We would need to get a lot of people on board with this-- and my own opinion on the matter doesn't really matter, as we'd need HDMs and the PA to be on board with as much. Though, perhaps worth noting that BG and MS are open source anyway, and every module is on the DM FTP (does anyone who's still here not have access to the DM FTP?). But at the same time I know that BG has moved some of its statics (particularly ones about finding stuff) because it was no longer a search to find the thing being searched for. That may or may not mean that the team would be unhappy about quest starting points being a convenient list for people to read.

Though there are many options between "Here's a list of quests by CR with map notes and check boxes beside them and a floaty arrow over your PC's head directing you to the next objective on the quest" and "You will find three quests placed randomly among these 10,000 indistinguishible houses." I have a hunch that ALFA would find both of those things objectionable, or at least enough people would that it would be an unpopular policy.

[oldgrayrogue]

Hints about the difficulty of quests can be given ICly in the quest giver conversations. In fact many BG quests do this already. I suppose other NPCs like the FF guards or what not could give PCs hints about the areas of the server that are dangerous and not so dangerous as well to keep it IC. This could be done across live servers. One thing I have seen in a number of other servers I have played on is level restricted quests. ALFA seems to be against this but I am not sure why. It is usually handled IC, with the NPC questgiver telling the PC something like "Come back to see me when you are a bit more seasoned." Another thing I have seen on other servers is "linked" quests that get progressively more difficult. So the first is for a level 1-3, the second is unlocked when that is completed and is for level 3-6 etc. Each gets progressively harder.

[orangetree]

Unfortunately the days of "just group up" are over. 90% of my time is spent in game either alone or with OT who (no offense) intentionally plays PCs who by the nature of their build presence is even more likely to get me dead by having to run in and bail out her AC12, 14hp bard or whatever.

just to defend myself here a bit, Sophia's base AC is 14 and I have an armor that gets it to 19, and my HP is 28. my bard songs will give you +1 damage to anything, for an entire party. The heavy crossbow will generally do about 8hp damage or maybe more. She is a 'decent average' char in terms of a battle.

... But I agree it's not good enough.

It's not meant to be critical. It just what it is. When it's just us 2 in game it's either tavern RP, walking A- B, or chatting in tells.

We're not going to have a conversation like "Hey, wanna go explore the wyvern caves?"

I'm... honestly not sure how to respond to that. I will just hope others will not be discouraged from inviting me in their escapades. My character in BG is a level 4 bard, and that has to be worth 'something' in a group.

Sorry for the off topic discussion, but I do think it has some pertinence towards the kind of issues a low level character has to go through on alfa.

[Zelknolf]

I'm... honestly not sure how to respond to that. I will just hope others will not be discouraged from inviting me in their escapades. My character in BG is a level 4 bard, and that has to be worth 'something' in a group.

Sorry for the off topic discussion, but I do think it has some pertinence towards the kind of issues a low level character has to go through on alfa.

A level 4 bard as songs, probably has Heroism, has the best UMD check that you can have, and tends to be a competent archer. Sometimes they even heal. They're squishy, like every skills-based class, but decidedly useful (those buffs make them able to make a front-line fighter very effective and makes their own ranged attacks reliable sources of damage which, as ranged weapons, can be applied without much repositioning on the field)-- with the challenge being that you need to not get targeted by enemies (because they tend to drop fast when they are). A lot of the same can be said about rangers but with different buffs, unless you're a melee ranger-- but you can identify them by the bootprints on their backs.

Hints about the difficulty of quests can be given ICly in the quest giver conversations. In fact many BG quests do this already. I suppose other NPCs like the FF guards or what not could give PCs hints about the areas of the server that are dangerous and not so dangerous as well to keep it IC. This could be done across live servers. One thing I have seen in a number of other servers I have played on is level restricted quests. ALFA seems to be against this but I am not sure why. It is usually handled IC, with the NPC questgiver telling the PC something like "Come back to see me when you are a bit more seasoned." Another thing I have seen on other servers is "linked" quests that get progressively more difficult. So the first is for a level 1-3, the second is unlocked when that is completed and is for level 3-6 etc. Each gets progressively harder.

We do try to give hints, yeah, though some of them are a bit tough to communicate (how hard is it to kill some escaped felons in the Cloakwood, for instance? Well, they're members of a race that advances by class. They're probably less than level 10, because they're not of "legendary" note, but that's a wide range of CRs.) -- that's not to say it's impossible, but I could use ideas there. Ideally, we'd not be so cheesy as to say "Fred the Knifeman is a murderous rogue of five seasons, and we need someone to capture him!" Could use ideas for communicating that an increasing-CR arc has increased in CR, too; my couple forays into this seem to result in people regarding the whole chain as difficult ("Watch out in that one, you'll get gangbanged by orcs and thrown into a drowning trap." -- well, yes, that's possible. Particularly if you fight the orcs on the narrow rickety bridge over the water. But learning that there are orcs by a rickety bridge where they might try to drown an intruder is a lower-CR task).

[Castano]

in answer to the tips issue: I would develop code phrases for low, medium and high CR.

For example: a band of ruffians is harassing peasants, ordinarily I'd send my new recruits out to get them, but they are off training right now. (Low)

an organized group of bandits is harassing peasants, ordinarily I'd send my patrols out to get them, but they are busy guarding a shipment of coin headed for Beregost. (Medium)

We have a huge problem, a group of bandits from Amn has set up operations in the Cloakwood, these guys must be tough to live there, and they have even the Ducal Guards quaking in their boots. We need a group of heroes to tackle this. (High)

[orangetree]

If they are human bandits take whatever the difficulty you think it is and double it.

That's what I always assume anyway.

[Zelknolf]

Phrases that give people a ballpark for CR would have the advantage of helping keep lowbies away from areas that can kill them before they react-- and maybe that's enough. If you can get into areas that are close to what you can handle, then you can at least probably get away if it's too much. Perfectly-predictable risk would take a lot of the interest out of play, but perfectly-unpredictable risk, plus permadeath, seems to make a pretty powerful deterrent to getting into new content. But new content and new players are the life blood of any world.

Perhaps a small expansion on Castano's suggestions--
CR 1-2: Talk about it needing "novices" or "recruits" to work on it ("very low")
CR 3-5: Talk about it needing "experienced" people to work on it ("low")
CR 6-9: Talk about it needing "veterans" to work on ("medium")
CR 10+: Talk about it needing "heroes" to work on ("high")

With those expanding windows being because gaining levels also expands the span of things that you can reasonably get away from if it's too much. Level 10 meeting a CR 15 probably gets away; Level 1 meeting a CR 3 is probably pushing up daisies. Also, after level 10, everything is just "way above my understanding" to common shmucks (and we probably shouldn't hold hands for a level 10, or give the impression that we will. DMs sure won't; they'll teleport you to Throrgar and let you figure out how to not die from it).