Crafting Standards

[talonbreak]

Ok thanks all for beginning to explain how to craft. Now I ask what is appropriate to craft.

We all know Skill items stack. Also I believe Save Bonuses stack too. In D&D you have different types of skill bonuses and the basic one: "competence bonus" doesn't stack.

How does ALFA2 handle this?

Per say could a player make a diplomacy set of items for negotiating? Put on his fancy dancy stuff to talk to the King. IE: gloves +1, rings +1, belt +1... etc

I wish to start enchanting items for myself and others and do not want to anger the Standards committee!

I also noticed if you wish to make an item with multiple bonuses: cloak can cast invisibility x1 day and gives +1 MS and Hide too. That is possible. Are there Standards set for this? I ask because I read a price check post for a crafted item that had: Fear x1 day, +1 Intimidate and such. It was said the bonus should be +2 at the least if you are combining effects. But this sounded like an opinion not a ruling.

Thanks for any help!

[Zelknolf]

We all know Skill items stack. Also I believe Save Bonuses stack too.

This is a documented shortcoming of the engine, which the ACR has not overcome.

[Castano]

Talon, what people say in standards should be based on the rules from DnD. So assume anything anyone posts in that forum is correct unless you prove it otherwise. The DM assisting you with crafting will be the final arbiter of costs and requirements, unless he messes up in which case it will be HDM, and ultimately DMA, but DMA has never gotten involved with individual items since we rarely make mistakes. I recommend you ask in ALFA chat and talk to people who have a good deal of experience crafting items in DnD.

[t-ice]

The rules are based on DnD:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/cr ... cItems.htm

The biggest exceptions are in the prices of individual properties, where alfa pricing standard is where it's at.

For properties where nwn2 effed up stacking (at least skills, probably saves), use common sense: If the item you propose would be pretty much worthless with proper stacking, but very valuable when properties do stack, then don't make it. So don't propose the likes of an item with +1 to 10 different skills. Even if it would be technically legal. Having 3 items of +2 to 3 different skills costs 3*(400+2*600)=4800. Whereas 3 items of +6 to one skill each costs 3*(3600)=10800. Crafting a set of items to purposefully aim for the former cost as opposed to the latter would be frowned upon (say, a set of clothes+hat+cloak for all you conversation needs (diplo+bluff+sense motive))

Come to think of it, we could practically circumvent the nwn2 skill stacking issue by modifying our pricing so that all skill bonuses an item gives are added together. So that an item of +2 hide and +2 move silently costs 4^2*100=1600 instead of 2^2*100+1.5*2^2*100=1000. This would be far more sensible a rule in nwn2 anyway, but given already existing items... yeah.

[Galadorn]

You had me at...

The biggest ....

[talonbreak]

Thanks T-Ice.

I get the gist now and that explains the pricing post I saw.

In effect ALFA understands that skill items stack and do not purposefully make lots of items with +1 skill bonuses to get cheap bonuses or abuse the fact.

It is to bad insight, luck and other bonuses are to included in the tool set. Could items be made that list bonuses in there description as based off the DMG and other sources?

Master work thieves tools +2 Open Lock circumstance bonus (stacks with itself)
Vest of Escape +4 Open Lock competence bonus (do not stack with itself)

Course this puts a wee bit more work as you have to label the items. As to things in circulation, grandfathered like warlocks but no new ones.

In retrospect, we players could police ourselves and use the above formula too. Makes us cheeky fellows that want bonuses have to read through all the cannon and find the different items to emulate with different bonuses.

For the post bellow "good point, removing link"

[Ithildur]

Probably not a good idea to list dandwiki as a reliable source of info. I've seen it confuse the heck out of folks again and again who didn't realize a lot of their stuff is completely homebrew, especially when they follow links google pulls up for them.

Someone once summarized dandwiki thusly "a wretched hive of scum, villainy and bad homebrew"...


http://www.d20srd.org/

[kid]

In effect ALFA understands that skill items stack and do not purposefully make lots of items with +1 skill bonuses to get cheap bonuses or abuse...

No DM would allow you to make multipul +1 items. Instead they would have you improve your +1 to a +2-3 whatever you want. You are not limited to dnd items or their description. You can make anything that our pricing docs cover. (+8 jump item works too)

Skill items are limited by level as well. Max +1 per cl.
There are some other lv limitations.
As for multiple abilities those are covered by our pricing standards as well.

Let your imagination free and make what you like.

If you need help figuring out what allowed and what's the price you can ask in chat or pm bb or even myself. I'd be happy to help.

[t-ice]

Right, one problem with skill stacking is that you should be able to get your highest magic item bonus (competence) and potentially a masterwork tools bonus (+2 circumstance). NWN2 only knows "skill bonus", and our masterwork tool items are essentially +2 magic items. But it works well enough.

As for "other bonus types" (sacred, profane, luck), they mostly apply to AC and saves. (Note that d20srd only lists competence bonus for skills, and enchantment on abilities and weapons/armor). It is well known that NWN2 is very poor in other kinds of attacks than directly against AC, and thus AC is too valuable. By dnd rules as intended there are numerous ways for enemies to neutralize a tank with a ridiculous AC (other than spells). But in nwn2, if you have AC to match your opponent's attack +20, you are virtually invincible. Not having these bonus ways to get even more AC is thus a welcome piece to combat nwn2 AC inflation.

At the end of the day, there's _the_ ALFA rule:
Don't powergame or metagame. Remember to put the story first, and have abilities to match.
It really does apply to item creation as well. You don't need to purposefully gimp yourself, but a contrieved way to gain powah by a collection of items is just as bad as any power/metagaming.

[Ithildur]

The bit about +2 mw tool (a paltry 50gp) is a good reminder; in light of this if it were me I may tolerate someone having two items, one a non magical +1/+2 and the other a magical item of +x, and letting them stack. More than two items stacking - I'd start to require some specific IC justification (it's a special item obtained through a quest for temple of such and such and actually is a relic of the faith i.e. ICly gives a sacred bonus and the item's description reflects this) ... or make the third item more expensive than standard ALFA pricing.

But yeah, getting a bunch of generic +1 or +2 skill X items and having them all stack for a massive total, I would not see that as kosher.

[talonbreak]

I agree Ithildur & T-Ice.

In my table top game we have lots of trinkets and which are allowed as long as the bonuses differ.

Thanks everyone for setting the standard clearly.

[danielmn]

At the end of the day, there's _the_ ALFA rule:
Don't powergame or metagame. Remember to put the story first, and have abilities to match.
It really does apply to item creation as well. You don't need to purposefully gimp yourself, but a contrieved way to gain powah by a collection of items is just as bad as any power/metagaming.

Could not have said it better myself.

[Witchdoctor]

*thread hijack warning*

The most interesting PC by far I have had in alfa to date is an intentional gimp in Robert Twobellies. People should really try it and see how fertile that soil is for character development. Great dm and group surrounding him certainly helps but would still recommend it for rich stories that can come of flaws as well as strengths