The NWN1 platform - changing customs and rules

[Demson]

An issue has been brought forward to the admin regarding NWN1. There has been made a proposal to change a few standing customs and rules, in order to improve the 'infrastructure' for NWN1 and make it a more popular and succesful platform again.

I believe in NWN1. I think it is still a very sollid, fun game with certain, definite advantages over NWN2. I still (try) to play NWN1 myself, in and out of ALFA. There are deep concerns coming from the NWN1 residents and as PA I take them to heart.

Of course, as PA I'm here for the community. Thus I will be asking for everyone's input on the matter at hand. Before I set them out, let me explain something though.

ALFA and NWN gameplay, with it's roots in P&P and D&D, is drenched with rules. It evolved from the fact that people wanted to roleplay around a table, but needed means to make this possible and make it go smoothly. True to D&D tradition, ALFA is full of rules. The idea of rulesets is what makes something as chaotic as creative storytelling possible.

But does that make ALFA and D&D about rules? I don't think so. What I'm here for, are the stories and the people in them, not the rules. I'm here for the joy of the creative effort, and the memory of those moments we create. Rules should serve us in this, we should not serve the rules.

It's with that mindset that I approach the issue that has been brought forward. There are three standing customs that are intregal to the ALFA identity:

• DMs cannot play where they DM.
• PCs must start at level 1.
• Players are only allowed one PC at a time.

In the past, these rules were deemed neccesary. With plenty of DMs and players, and with enough plots and actions, such rules could be afforded.

But can we still afford such rules? Does it not make it impossible to draw upon new DM's because they don't want to give up playing? Won't it be impossible for new players to join existing campaigns and plots if they won't be able to participate in adventure and survive? Won't it be easier to have more server activity if people are not stuck to a single PC that they might get bored with, but don't want to give up on?

I'm throwing this at you, the actual players, to deal with. If there's one thing ALFA is good for besides awesome roleplay, it's awesome debate.

What do you think about changing these three customs so DM's can play on their own servers, PC's can start at higher levels, and being able to have more than one PC? For NWN1. I'm asking for everyone's insight on this. Explain, build arguements and motivate.

I will be moderating this discussion if need be. Keep it polite, stay on topic. If you don't want to share your thoughts in public, please PM me.

[Rusty]

PCs don't have to start at level one, and one PC per player is a Pillar, not a custom.

[hollyfant]

All three of these points, whether you call them customs, rules or pillars, are already being eroded. We can have PCs on a live sever for NWN1, 2 and both the OASes. Many players build for the servers they play on, and it's fairly normal to be the DM of a player who's your DM on another server. And while I never heard of a PC not starting at level 1, drive-by XP "because you should be off the mark by now" is not unheard of.

Having said that, I still believe those three points should be kept as the standard. Even while occasionally being warped or bent, they provide good guidance. They're plain, simple and fair. Whatever might be "solved" by abandoning the rules would be better accomplished by culling servers.

Oops, did I type that out loud?

[psycho_leo]

Whatever might be "solved" by abandoning the rules would be better accomplished by culling servers.

I don't think any of the current problems ALFA faces can be solved by yet again culling servers. I defended that option when we had a bloated collection of ever empty servers, where nobody played or DMed, ever. Those served no purpose other than let us say that we had 10+ servers. Now we only have 4 NWN servers. Sure, none of them has the population they had in the golden years, but each one of them has active players and DMs.

[JaydeMoon]

PCs don't have to start at level one, and one PC per player is a Pillar, not a custom.

Please expound on your point? Are you of the mind that pillars were dumB, and thus stating it's a pillar, not a custom and more importantly not a rule? Or are you a staunch supporter of pillars and trying to say that changing the pillar will be the force that unravels ALFA?

PCs may not be forced to start at level 1 per any actual rules, but standards dictates how XP may be awarded and the DMA who oversaw a lot of that dictated that if it wasn't allowed by standards, it was expressly disallowed. Wait, that was YOU!!!

As the only XP granted can be by the methods proscribed in XP standards, for all intents and purposes, PCs must start at level 1.

As for 'culling servers', how is that fair for people who have a long and rich history on server A? The group that has been playing all this timeon server B? The guys who only ever play on server C?

All the work that the HDMs and DMs have put into their servers, you're going to tell them to stow it, now?

Cullin servers is not, in my mind, a viable possibility.

[hollyfant]

I shall now quickly clarify that I would never support anything but voluntary server-euthanasia and urge all participants in this thread to discuss the issues put forward in the original message rather than my off-hand remark.

[JaydeMoon]

When this thread gets derailed, I'm blaming YOU, Holly!

But yes, to the points:

These rules are great for vibrant, full persistent servers where you can expect a nearly continuous progression of your PCs story every day, in terms of interpersonal RP and DM powered plot advancement.

And if the NWN1 servers ever start getting chock full of lots of people and returns to that, the rules should probably be reinstated.

But currently, people are limited to playing when there are people who not only match up in time, but also in location and plot.

I COULD try to play on Tuesdays AND Thursdays, because there are people who match my time on those days.

But the Tuesday session fits my Lawful Neutral Selunite Monk on NC, whereas the only thing going on Thursday night is a group of Lawful and Neutral Evil on Sembia.

So actually, I can only play on Tuesdays. Sometimes, I can log on for some RP on Friday, but with people that I have absolutely nothing to do with on my Tuesday night session.

So maybe I'm just crying, I can't play all the nights I want to. Buuhuu.

But actually I don't really care. Because I can play any other night on any one of a number of other vibrant PWs which are persistent, have decent RP, top out at over 40 players on server at peak, stay around 10 on server at trough, and don't have these confining rules of DMing, one PC, etc. they're doing more than just fine. They are thriving.

If I don't care, why bother to post here? Because maybe ALFA cares. Maybe the preference for this community is to keep players on ALFA servers as much as possible. Maybe it would be good for ALFA to have higher numbers in general, even if it's still the same people, just moving around a bit.

And maybe other ALFAns care. Maybe Joe the ALFAn doesn't feel the same way I do about other PWs. "If they aren't elitist ALFA RPers, I don't want to have anything to do with them!" Be nice if they could find some decent game.

So, the way I see it, the rules which are in place to make it easier to dissuade cheating and encourage good RP and continuity when you have vibrant persistent servers with many people on line simultaneously are instead stifling.

They are stifling to persistent campaign servers where the number of people still actively around is low enough that the DMs themselves can practically monitor each individual to ensure that nothing untoward is going on.

Of interest to me is to see how many people in ALFA who aren't actively involved in NWN1 post here, either for or against these changes.

[Zelknolf]

Every post thus far has been from someone still involved in NWN1, Jayde. Holly has a toon on NC, you play with PL, and Rusty just joined the Moonshaes DM team, and I think is starting up a Euro-timed campaign there. (and I think Demson has a toon there?)

[NickD]

Please expound on your point? Are you of the mind that pillars were dumB, and thus stating it's a pillar, not a custom and more importantly not a rule? Or are you a staunch supporter of pillars and trying to say that changing the pillar will be the force that unravels ALFA?

PCs may not be forced to start at level 1 per any actual rules, but standards dictates how XP may be awarded and the DMA who oversaw a lot of that dictated that if it wasn't allowed by standards, it was expressly disallowed. Wait, that was YOU!!!

If I may make an ASS out if U and ME as to what Rusty meant:

* A custom is something people do out of tradition. A pillar is a foundation that keeps the roof from falling down and killing everyone.

* Drows do not start at level 1 because they are LA characters, effectively starting at level 3.


As to the questions, I have already stated my objection to DMs playing on the server they DM on. I also prefer that characters start at 1st level, but I could live with 3rd level starting for NWN1. And there are plenty of historical and good reasons for the 1 PC per player rule.

While I technically still have an ALFA NWN1 PC, I haven't played on any NWN1 server for quite a while, so maybe that should mean my opinion shouldn't count. However, the problem I see occuring is people will argue: We do it for NWN1, why not NWN2?

[JaydeMoon]

Every post thus far has been from someone still involved in NWN1, Jayde. Holly has a toon on NC, you play with PL, and Rusty just joined the Moonshaes DM team, and I think is starting up a Euro-timed campaign there. (and I think Demson has a toon there?)

Didn't claim anyone who had thus far posted here wasn't involved. However, I expect that by the end there will be a few, as Nick self-admittedly becomes the first (who isn't currently actively involved in NWN1). The voices of these are not, by any means, unimportant. However, I should hope that a larger consideration be given to those who ARE actively involved in NWN1.

-------

Drow still start at level 1. Effective level 3 is not the same as level 3. Let's not pick nits here. Especially nits that have little to do with the overall point.

And while I understand the difference between a pillar and a custom, what I can't be certain of is Rusty's attitude towards the pillar.

We can easily call ANYTHING a pillar. That doesn't mean we agree with its pillarworthiness. So I'm uncertain still if Rusty is saying "It's a pillar, ALFA will implode without it!" or if he's saying with a sense of disdain, "Lol, don't you know it's a pillar" *roll eyes*

In either case, I guess it's beside the point, as again this does not truly have anything to do with the overall point. Pillars can be replaced and there is nothing to say that it actually IS a pillar except that some people claim it is so. Others may claim it isn't really that important.

And I don't think anyone disagrees that there are plenty of historical and good reasons for 1 PC per player. But a counterpoint is that ALFA in NWN1 is no longer what it historically was. In fact that is probably the biggest reason for all three of these 'proposed changes'.

And this:

We do it for NWN1, why not NWN2?

Seems like a trifling, petty argument against. It is simple enough to craft the response of 'No'. And for half the community to violently rail against it such a change for NWN2.

[hollyfant]

ALFA is all about the rules. They have kept the place(s) going with some degree of continuity, despite "personnel changes". We want them. We need them.

But we want them perhaps more than we need them, those rules. Rules always seem to trump practicality, expedience and fun. And we're all too eager, almost every one of us, to impose our own opinions as rules on others. We're D&D players, I guess it's what we do. Play by rules.

Even this thread is about the rules. Not about fun, or specific cases or somebody's wishes. We're discussing the rules. But who here actually would roll up a second NWN1 character, were it allowed? Who wants to start at second or third level? Which DM wants to play in their own back yard? Forget the rules, what do we actually want?
At the risk of appearing fickle: I'd roll up two PCs more if it was allowed. Just for campaigns in my time zone. I don't like "campaign play", but it seems to be the only way to play.

So who's next? Who would actually do something now disallowed by the three rules under discussion?

[FanaticusIncendi]

So who's next? Who would actually do something now disallowed by the three rules under discussion?

I would.

For those of you who may not know, I am an active NWN1 DM.

If I could, I would gladly help out as DM on Shadowdale but my PC has IC ties there and I am unwilling to hamstring my ability to leave Sembia once in a while.

I would also DM on Waterdeep when/if it goes live, but as a player, I really want to go there.


Since the proverbial cat is now out of the bag on this one, I will go ahead and say that I am the one who sent the proposal to the admin. I never meant for it to go in the GD forum as 1) I wished to avoid drama and 2) I feel this is a NWN1 issue and people who are actively playing and/or DMing in NWN1 should be the ones who have the most say here.

Since Demson decided that the issue should be brought to the general forums and because I feel he glossed over some very important points in the proposal I will go ahead and re-post it here.

Keep in mind before you jump to hit the 'reply' button with an angry retort that this was written in the spirit of keeping ALFA1 alive and all of us together and maybe even seeing servers thrive once again.

Hello,

This is a letter I'm writing to the Admin. As you may or may not know, there is a contingent of ALFAns who are rather disgruntled with the state of affairs in ALFA. They do not feel that the 'infrastructure' of ALFA is optimized for the current state of the community, especially as it involves NWN1.

At one time, NWN1 servers were thriving, persistant servers where game could reasonably be found. At that time, rules regarding DMing and playing made sense.

Times change. Currently, NWN1 has become a series of semi-fractured 'Campaign Servers'. Players complain of not being able to integrate new PCs because of level disparities and/or inaccessibility of DMs due to time and DM/server constraints.

Many have voiced this frustration but feel that it has fallen on deaf ears. ALFAns who do not even have any stock in NWN1 servers (active as neither player nor DM) clamor loudly that changes cannot be made on those servers, an Admin body that has little to do with NWN1 servers on anything other than a bureacratic level sits and makes decisions (most of the current seated Admin are not active on NWN1 as players or DMs, even if they have PCs they could pick up at any moment), and emphasis has, understandably, been focused on NWN2.

However, the result is that those of us who are dedicated to NWN1 feel slighted and many are seeking alternatives. This weakens the community as a whole and the incoming shift can not serve to help ALFA in any way.

To mitigate what is coming, I would like to suggest that the Admin acknowledge the fact that NWN1 for ALFA is not what it used to be, nor is it likely that it will ever attain that. To acknowledge that the servers have become campaign servers that are connected. With this acknowledgement comes the concession that some of the rules that were extremely important for ALFA in it's prime, and still important for NWN2 ALFA are now unnecessary and stifling to our goal of creating a "rich and rewarding D&D Role Playing experience for our players using the NWN1 & 2 computer games and WOTC's Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting". Taken from the tab Mission..

There is no rich and rewarding D&D RP experience for those who continue to find frustration with a system that refuses to change to allow players to integrate PCs into campaigns that DMs are running. There is no rich and rewarding D&D RP experience for players on Tuesday night in Shadowdale when the only available person to DM for them cannot because they happen to have a PC on Shadowdale that plays in another campaign on Friday nights.

To say that there are no DMs left and that nobody wants to DM, an interesting experiment would be to see if we suddenly have a few extra DMs if we allowed folks to DM on a server they play on.

Looking over the rules that most contribute to stifling play on Campaign servers, I have determined that the three biggest ones are DMing where you play, starting PCs at level 1, and multiple PCs.

Quoted space to offset the following section

I've been doing some research and took note of where in our infrastructure it states such things like:

• DMs cannot play where they DM.
• PCs must start at level 1.
• Players are only allowed one PC at a time.

The first one is not in the Charter or the Pillars. It is rule 8.1 in the Rulebook. It is well within the rights of the PA and DMA and in fact they have a responsibility to update the rulebook to reflect changes in the community. You do NOT need a vote amongst admin to do this.

Might I recommend adding the following to the end of rule 8.1:

For NWN1 servers, PA and DMA may waive this rule. Waiver requires both PA and DMA approval.

The second one is not specifically mentioned in the charter, pillars, rulebook, whatever. It is indirectly controlled by the rule that the XP is awarded as dictated by standrads. DMA is the overseer of standards. Allowing a PC to start at higher than level 1 is the same as a 'free one time XP award at character creation'.

Recommend that for NWN1 servers new PCs may receive a 'free one time XP award at Character Creation' at the discretion of the DM team.

The third item is not in the rulebook or charter but is one of our glorious 'pillars'. Pillars are already subject to change with the times, as that pillar was modified (though it does not reflect) to state that it was one PC per platform in ALFA.

Recommend removing it as a pillar for NWN1.

These are the recommended changes that I think will keep interest in ALFA and NWN1 alive for those who are disgruntled and potentially seeking an alternative to the community.

Allowing DMs to play where they DM and start PCs at higher than level 1 creates greater flexibility for players involved in Campaigns to travel to other servers and flexibility for the DM to create fuller stories, without being hobbled by never going to a particular server for the OOC reason of, "I can't, cause I play there." It allows DMs to integrate PCs at a level that fits more closely with the pace of the campaign.

Multiple PCs is likely less important if the others are fixed, but it will allow a player with a PC on server A to find game on server B on nights when no one else he plays with on server A is available whatsoever.

The fears of cheating and exploitation are somewhat laughable in the face of the fact that NWN1 ALFA is now pretty much a close knit group of trusted DMs and their trusted players and is not generally seeing a lot of traffic. Allowing DMs and HDMs to police their own will keep any potential inappropriateness from happening.

When I say that many ALFAns are seeking alternatives, please do not take that lightly. Some of the admin have heard of plans for another 'exodus' for NWN1. I will not pretend that all of NWN1 will go along with it, but any group of our small NWN1 base leaving will weaken the community as a whole, as the number of advertised servers drop and new players interested in NWN1 log on to find our servers even more empty than they are now.

Thanks for hearing me out, I hope you consider what I have to say on the subject.

Thank you,
FI

[Karvon]

I'm rather new to ALFA, so not familiar with all the history/logic behind these three rules, nor too inclined on digging thru past archives as to why they're in place.

I currently play on a number of different NWN1 PWs of varying size and staff, and own and operate a small PW of my own. All of them have been around awhile, are fairly active and seem to draw new players.

None of them have such rules.

The following are my own opinions on each.

1. One PC per server.

In most of places I play if you're running a PC in a DM'ed campaign, you are NOT supposes to wander around between sessions on the PW unless it fits in with the current situation, i.e. the party ended play in town where you're going to spend a day or more, so it's ok to explore the city and go shopping between sessions. Usually it's custom to get the DMs OK for intersession to play to avoid any misunderstandings or potential storyline disruptions.

Following a 1 PC per player rule essentially eliminates the opportunity for players to create non-campaign PCs for solo play and exploration, which means they'll never see areas of the server beyond those used by the DM in their campaign. Furthermore, it prevents them from developing potential backup PCs to replace ones who die in DM'd sessions.

Unless you have a fairly large player base, your server will likely be empty aside from the time slots used by your DMs. My occasional scan of ALFA servers via gamespy seems to confirm that. To me, a perpetually empty server is a waste of electricity and money.

2. Starting at 1st level.

While I've always enjoyed and found a place for 1st level starts in PNP, I've never been fond of them in NWN. In PNP a DM has full control over the story and can easily adjust things on the fly to insure PCs are challenged yet can survive if intelligently played. In NWN, a combo of changes in creatures and the nature of the game engine handling combats and saves, means the DM has to react to, rather than control, combat situations. If the game engine doles out a crit hit or failed save or the AI choses the "wrong" spell, one or more of the party can be toast very quickly at 1st level. Now of course the DM can step in repair the situation after the fact, but it does disrupt the storyline, even with the best creative explanations. Everyone knows he/they died and the DM stepped in and fixed it. Allowing for higher level starts reduces the odds of this considerably.

Death happens. PCs will get themselves killed eventually thru any combo of bad luck, personal carelessness or mistakes by their comrades. Unless the party has reasonable access to raise dead, this entails creating a new PC. If the party has any experience at all, adding a 1st level PC to the mix is more of lodestone than boon in most cases - and the higher the level of the party, the more this is going to be the case. Such PCs simply lack the equipment and skills to add much of anything to the party's efforts. Depending on how the XP scripts are set up, they may not get any XP for combats the party engages in, so reliant on RP/session xp for advancement. While they may provide some RP opportunity, most players are not too keen on being in such a situation.

A more serious issue is sudden party imbalance. If an experienced PC dies and is replaced by a 1st level one. The smaller the party - and the higher the average level, the more serious this point becomes. If you lose even a 3rd level fighter and replace him with a 1st level one, your party is not going to have nearly the frontline/door stopper it once had. You could hardly expect a 1st level cleric to replace the void created by the loss of a 5th level one.

3. DMs playing on the same server.

All the other places I currently DM and play, whether big or small, allow players to do both. Those wishing to DM usually are those who've played for awhile on the server and been screened/trained by server staff before moving up to DM. I guess it comes down to either you trust people or you don't. In addition, related to point 1 above, with this rule your force a dispersion of PCs, since a DM can't play on the server he runs on.

Finally, given the application system, number of required ALFA haks and the generally declining number of active NWN1 players, ALFA already faces serious challenges to draw new players without maintaining these rules which further narrow your player base IMHO.

All that being said, ALFA is free to carry on in whatever custom/tradition/rules/guidelines it sees fit, but players will vote with their feet.

Karvon

[Veilan]

Having said that, I still believe those three points should be kept as the standard. Even while occasionally being warped or bent, they provide good guidance. They're plain, simple and fair.

[Soapie]

I'm only a player but I agree with what FanaticusIncendi and Karvon have posted.