BGDM House Rules Commentary

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HEEGZ
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BGDM House Rules Commentary

Post by HEEGZ »

I am stepping down as BG HDM in order to get some better perspective on the server as a player. I will begin playing a PC on BG in June when my 30 day timer expires. In the meantime, shad0wfax will be acting as interim HDM until someone is formally selected by HDM Castano. Thanks. 8)
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Lokan
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Re: Baldur's Gate DMs and House Rules

Post by Lokan »

HEEGZ wrote:I am stepping down as BG HDM in order to get some better perspective on the server as a player. I will begin playing a PC on BG in June when my 30 day timer expires. In the meantime, shad0wfax will be acting as interim HDM until someone is formally selected by HDM Castano. Thanks. 8)
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Re: Baldur's Gate DMs and House Rules

Post by shad0wfax »

Lokan wrote:
HEEGZ wrote:I am stepping down as BG HDM in order to get some better perspective on the server as a player. I will begin playing a PC on BG in June when my 30 day timer expires. In the meantime, shad0wfax will be acting as interim HDM until someone is formally selected by HDM Castano. Thanks. 8)
Ten dollars to the first DM to kill Heegz's PC
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Re: Baldur's Gate DMs and House Rules

Post by boombrakh »

shad0wfax wrote:Original post edited. See the wiki link here for updated House Rules.
5h4d0wf4x 0n t3h w1k1 wrote:Any character with a statistically significant XP gain event history who falls under the 25% threshold, may, at HDM discretion, be reported to the Player Administrator for a farming violation.
Now, granted that I havn't been online for a week or so, but is there a way for a player to see how much xp he or she has received from which sources? Also, will this be grandfathered? I mean, players who not white, middle-class, and within acceptable living xp-parameters, are they to be reported to the player admin for farming violation as soon as they set foot on the Sword Coast?

I mean, I like a good persecution of our players as the next guy, but that just sounds like a lot of work.
pragmatic (adj.)
The opposite of idealistic is pragmatic, a word that describes a philosophy of "doing what works best."
From Greek pragma "deed," the word has historically described philosophers and politicians who were
concerned more with real-world application of ideas than with abstract notions. A pragmatic person
is sensible, grounded, and practical.
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Re: Baldur's Gate DMs and House Rules

Post by oldgrayrogue »

Once a character has reached level 3, percent RPXP of Total Lifetime XP should not fall below 25%.

Any character with a statistically significant XP gain event history who falls under the 25% threshold, may, at HDM discretion, be reported to the Player Administrator for a farming violation. Significant DMXP or a percentage out of tolerance prior to the effective date are the only exceptions for this threshold. In the latter case, players will be politely warned and given the opportunity to correct their behavior. Should characters show a trend of decreasing RPXP percentage after the warning, they will be referred to the Player Administrator for a farming violation.

What exactly does this mean, especially the bold? Are you referring to the RPXP ticker? So is BG saying it is preferable to earn free XP by just standing around and chatting 25% of the time than going out and adventuring? I am totally confused. What exactly is a "statistically significant XP gain event history" and how would a player know if they had one? If I am understanding this correctly, and I admit that I might not be, a player who logs on and goes out to adventure every time they are logged on rather than standing around doing nothing to earn XP is going to be accused of farming. If this is so it is totally unfair in my opinion, does not promote our play style and will simply lead to bad blood between the server staff and players and headaches for admin. With all the talk on the standards boards recently about returning the PW play style to ALFA and increasing loot spawns and XP awards for adventuring as opposed to riskless behavior, this new rule is very disappointing.
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Re: Baldur's Gate DMs and House Rules

Post by FoamBats4All »

First, let me state that RP XP is a very misleading name. "RP XP" is just something you get for being online and active. Spend an hour on the road? 15xp. Spend an hour killing goblins? Bonus 15xp. Spend an hour trying to hit on that barmaid? 15xp. Spend an hour chatting with other players? 15xp.
boombrakh wrote:Now, granted that I havn't been online for a week or so, but is there a way for a player to see how much xp he or she has received from which sources? Also, will this be grandfathered? I mean, players who not white, middle-class, and within acceptable living xp-parameters, are they to be reported to the player admin for farming violation as soon as they set foot on the Sword Coast?

I mean, I like a good persecution of our players as the next guy, but that just sounds like a lot of work.
Regardless of race, class, or nation, we tend to keep RP XP percentages and wealth obscured from the player. Generally they don't need to know. That said, most DMs are willing to tell you that kind of information if you ask them.
oldgrayrogue wrote:What exactly does this mean, especially the bold? Are you referring to the RPXP ticker? So is BG saying it is preferable to earn free XP by just standing around and chatting 25% of the time than going out and adventuring? I am totally confused.
The RP XP thing is a measure of your "XP:time spent in game" ratio. Keep in mind you still earn RP XP just for being active. So when you're going around killing goblins for 1xp each, you'd have to spend an hour to kill 45 goblins, assuming you logged on just before combat, and logged out exactly after.

RP XP % is a measure of XP density, basically how much XP you get per hour you spend in game, taken in the long run. 25% means you'd have to maintain 60xp/RL hour outside of DM activity to be considered a farmer. Spent 50 hours playing a character? Your XP, not including significant DM XP, should not be over 3,000, 750 of which comes from just being logged in and active.

Say it takes you 2 hours to go killing goblins, and goblins give you 1xp each. In that 2 hours, if you kill over 90 goblins, that's under 25%. Take 3 hours to travel the road, and go kill goblins? You'd have to kill 135 goblins to go under 25%. Spend 2 hours RPing with a friend, then go travel and kill goblins for another 2 hours? You'd have to kill 180 goblins together to go under 25%.

The only real people under 25% are people who log in, go kill stuff, then log out, who seriously farm their balls off, or who see a significant (in terms of character play time) amount of DMing. The later of those two are exempt from the rule.

Basically, 25% means you should not be earning more than 60xp on average, for the entire life of the character per RL hour. This seems high if you are someone who logs in for concentrated bursts of XP, but drastically eases up later. 25% was decided on after parsing logs to see what your average players are at. You'd have to be a heavy campaign DM (such as from Ronan's crew on TSM) to be under 25%, and thus exempt, when you step foot on BG.
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Re: Baldur's Gate DMs and House Rules

Post by shad0wfax »

boombrakh wrote:t is there a way for a player to see how much xp he or she has received from which sources?
Any DM who attempts to assign XP to a player, whether quest XP or Bonus XP, will receive a notice in their combat log window displaying the total lifetime percent RPXP.
boombrakh wrote:Also, will this be grandfathered?
The ALFA Charter and Rules are very clear on ex post facto laws, as is my wiki post:
Significant DMXP or a percentage out of tolerance prior to the effective date are the only exceptions for this threshold. In the latter case, players will be politely warned and given the opportunity to correct their behavior. Should characters show a trend of decreasing RPXP percentage after the warning, they will be referred to the Player Administrator for a farming violation.
Players will not be referred to the PA for having significant DMXP causing their RPXP to drop, nor will players who are below the house rule standard be submitted to the PA immediately. Any player who falls below the rule will be politely warned and giving ample opportunity to correct the behavior. Note that an immediate jump to 25% is not required, merely an "upward trend" is required. If a player fails to comply, the HDM may refer them to the PA for discipline.
boombrakh wrote:that just sounds like a lot of work.
It's one button click for any DM to see, and one single SQL log pull by me to see a trend. Total time invested in verifying legitimate complaints is less time than it took to respond to your post.

The above portions of your post were legitimate questions, and I've answered them. If you have further serious questions, please post them here.

The remainder is trolling:
Spoiler:
boombrakh wrote:
5h4d0wf4x 0n t3h w1k1 wrote:
boombrakh wrote:I mean, players who not white, middle-class, and within acceptable living xp-parameters, are they to be reported to the player admin for farming violation as soon as they set foot on the Sword Coast?
boombrakh wrote:I mean, I like a good persecution of our players as the next guy
You are currently listed as a BG DM, boombrakh and you are posting in the BG server forums; post in a polite and responsible manner, reflecting your position.
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Re: Baldur's Gate DMs and House Rules

Post by boombrakh »

shad0wfax wrote:The remainder is trolling:
Spoiler:
boombrakh wrote:
5h4d0wf4x 0n t3h w1k1 wrote:
boombrakh wrote:I mean, players who not white, middle-class, and within acceptable living xp-parameters, are they to be reported to the player admin for farming violation as soon as they set foot on the Sword Coast?
boombrakh wrote:I mean, I like a good persecution of our players as the next guy
You are currently listed as a BG DM, boombrakh and you are posting in the BG server forums; post in a polite and responsible manner, reflecting your position.
  • First comment: Having a laugh at your nick, yeah, I guess that could be considered "trolling" if you want to stretch it. Sorry about bringing notice to the fact that you are very 1337. :P
  • Second comment: The comment about being reported is not trolling. Although you do seem to be quite guarded in your behavior - Perhaps you simply see things that aren't quite what you think they are?
  • Third comment: A means to draw attention to the ludicrus nature of promoting a 1984 behavior is not trolling. It is rhetorics.
Finally: I am currently listed as a BG DM, I am posting in the BG server forums; I do this because I voice my concern regarding the changes you make to the servers house rules. Normally, a HDM would discuss any such changes with his DMs before making them official (like HEEGZ used to do) to see if they mirror his position. Had this been done, I would have voiced my concerns there instead of publically, where you seem uncomfortable being confronted. As for posting in a "polite and responsible manner, reflecting my position", that is just a series of words you strung together to sound "official". If you don't like your policies to be publically questioned, you should discuss them behind closed doors, among people who agree with you.

I do not.
pragmatic (adj.)
The opposite of idealistic is pragmatic, a word that describes a philosophy of "doing what works best."
From Greek pragma "deed," the word has historically described philosophers and politicians who were
concerned more with real-world application of ideas than with abstract notions. A pragmatic person
is sensible, grounded, and practical.
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BG House Rules Commentary

Post by shad0wfax »

This thread is intended to be for clarification of rules, questions, or serious commentary on the House Rules of BG. Please keep all posts from Players and DMs alike on-topic and free from inflammatory language, trolling, and loaded rhetorical commentary.
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Re: BGDM House Rules Commentary

Post by Regas »

Hi guys, just happened to peek in on this thread, I sadly have not had time to play on bg the last few months though it is certainly my favorite server. SF, hats off to you and your efforts both in building and in the vast time your spending dming the players! I have cross posted in the main forums on this topic as it has huge implication to the community and may be in conflict with alfa's charter, rules and division of power, and is certainly problematic for the other servers. Sorry for the trouble, but as a past admin I can see potential issues that should be vetted by the community at large and may have been overlooked if folks, like me, aren't paying close attention.


http://www.alandfaraway.org/phpBB3/view ... =3&t=50999
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FoamBats4All
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Re: BGDM House Rules Commentary

Post by FoamBats4All »

In talking with shad0wfax, the problem is presentation, not the numbers. 20-25% RP XP outside of DM activity seems fair, we only have a few "farmer" outliers that fall into this.

The issue is that it comes across as a magic numbers to player. The goal here, in talking with shad0wfax, seems to be to protect players, not to punish them. It's supposed to be, "Hey, DMs, if someone is over 25% RP XP after level 3, please do not report them for farming, or make us pull logs on them. Only players under 25% may be reported to the PA for farming. Significantly DMed or grandfathered players should not be reported either." The point was also to adjust the previous "if you're below 7.5%, you might be a farmer" -- seeing as 7.5% is ridiculous, if not impossible to reach.

But, to a player, this unresearched, magic number of 25%, which you have no way of checking yourself, seems rightfully scary. They have no statistics to draw upon, no 3+ years of RP XP history that they looked over. It's just a random number to them, with no context or way of self-checking.

I've suggested it to shad0wfax to post this as a private DM guideline rather than a player-visible rule.
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Re: BGDM House Rules Commentary

Post by shad0wfax »

Regas wrote:Hi guys, just happened to peek in on this thread, I sadly have not had time to play on bg the last few months though it is certainly my favorite server. SF, hats off to you and your efforts both in building and in the vast time your spending dming the players! I have cross posted in the main forums on this topic as it has huge implication to the community and may be in conflict with alfa's charter, rules and division of power, and is certainly problematic for the other servers. Sorry for the trouble, but as a past admin I can see potential issues that should be vetted by the community at large and may have been overlooked if folks, like me, aren't paying close attention.


http://www.alandfaraway.org/phpBB3/view ... =3&t=50999
HEEGZ had a house policy that farming was defined as 7.5% RPXP. That means, you could farm the heck out of statics and mobs and you could have 2,775 XP from mobs and statics, and 225 XP from RPXP which correlated to 15 hours of RL play.

HEEGZ standards, as a house rule, were so absolutely lax, that "Farming" couldn't possibly apply to any character ever, even when a character had 7,500 total XP, of which 5% came from DMs, 12% came from RPXP, and the remaining 83% came from statics and monster kills.

My attempt to codify the 25% change was not to go on a witch-hunt for players. It was to give BG DMs (who can see RPXP vs Lifetime XP % values with a single click of a button) a tool to overlook the less severe cases of farming and to focus on characters who derive a large portion of their XP from grinding mobs and statics.

Furthermore, the language was such that the HDM may refer that to the PA for farming at HDM discretion. The PA has the domain over this issue. And the PA would examine every case on an individual basis, and to the PA, the 25% limit was, and is, absolutely meaningless. (Just as HEEGZ 7.5% limit was absolutely meaningless to the PA.)

Since not everyone has access to the actual logs of character activity, I added language to clarify that anyone who had plenty of XP from DM events would not be reported, and of course, anyone that predates the house rule or that comes from another server would not be reported.

In the cases of characters that predated the rule or characters that came from other servers, the intent was that I would contact them (only if they did not have significant DMXP), and let them know that by my standards, they were out of spec. From that point, I would simply watch their behavior on BG over a period of time. If they exhibited signs of farming, documented by a further decrease in % RPXP (which means they're gaining more XP per hour from sources other than DMs or RPXP), that I'd then refer them to the PA, for the PA to investigate under their own criteria.

The 25% was not a number that was arrived at randomly. I searched through the lifetime logs for every single character every created on any ALFA NWN2 server, and I found that the overwhelming majority of older characters from 2011 were at the 50% mark, that the vast majority of characters from 2012 to mid 2013 were at the 35% mark, and that only a very few outliers were under 25%, with most of those being characters that I know to have been part of large DM campaigns, or heavily involved in multiple DM events.

I also looked through the past history of people that did receive farming strikes from the PA, and their % RPXP was anywhere from 12% up to nearly 50% RPXP. Obviously, the PA has their own criteria, as this is their domain.

The reason I posted this in house rules is that HEEGZ policy meant that on BG, absolutely no one could ever be farming, by his rules, because it was impossible to even achieve his threshold.

So no, I don't think that I'm the PA. I don't think that I can issue strikes or official ALFA warnings as an administrator. I don't think that I have the authority to change what is farming. What I was trying to do was say, "If you break this rule, I might refer you to the PA for investigation."
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Re: BGDM House Rules Commentary

Post by Regas »

What I read from Foam's post translated to a hard number- limit of 45 xp per hour from all xp sources except rpxp, which would yield 15. Combat and static xp are both moderated by scripting, (though I guess still be abused?). The only source of xp that isn't moderated via script is dm xp to my understanding- you can maybe see why I'm confused? It sounds like this wasn't intended this way, I'll take another look and see if I can understand what all the implications are to the rule.

I would respectfully suggest that any standard published to players and whose violation may be referred to the PA for enforcement, regardless of whether the PA chooses to enforce the standard- is a standard. Maybe others interpreter this differently, but this does seem to me to be a standard governing xp, and it does seem to me to need to be validated by the DMA and if so validated applied to all of ALFA. I really don't think you had any bad intention here SF. I am guessing this effort comes from the good intention to help clarify what's ok on BG related to farming and to address issues that apply to a very small number of problem players.

What I found in muddling through this as the PA before was that complex rules to address specific issues, especially those dealing with a small number of problem players, can overly burden ALFA's limited infrastructure and resources. I don't think it makes sense to have the 25% rule posted as formal rule for the players myself- just my opinion, for whatever that's worth.
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Re: BGDM House Rules Commentary

Post by shad0wfax »

Regas wrote:Combat and static xp are both moderated by scripting, (though I guess still be abused?).

I would respectfully suggest that any standard published to players and whose violation may be referred to the PA for enforcement, regardless of whether the PA chooses to enforce the standard- is a standard.

I don't think it makes sense to have the 25% rule posted as formal rule for the players myself- just my opinion, for whatever that's worth.
Sanderman's DPSS scripts for goblins were overriding loot values, offering too high of CR too close to the tradeway, and offering hugely lucrative DPSS bounty rewards with no diminishing returns at all. It was heavily abused on BG by a portion of the population. Because of my frequent server restarts for content patches, the DPSS system became even worse about spawning too many things. I've rebuilt the module to address that, as I believe that the DPSS system was entirely out of compliance with DMA advancement guidelines.

You are correct, that this standard was meant to be posted as a DM guideline, and I was only trying to provide transparency to the players. You are also correct that in this context, it should not have been posted to the players. I've also removed it from the wiki entirely.

I'll simply handle farming on a case by case basis.
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Re: BGDM House Rules Commentary

Post by oldgrayrogue »

I would prefer that, as a community, we investigate issues of alleged farming or cheating or other rules violations based upon observed behavior. The logs are good evidence to corroborate observed behavior, but with the exception of certain violations such as looting your own corpse, reveal little if anything about player intent and IC motivation. Even issues such as that which appear clear cut have been found to have explanations in the past. When I ran my Sons of Obould campaign on TSM, I spawned an invading orc army and PCs killed lots of them. Might have looked bad on logs but this was IC. The determination of intent is rarely made numerically.

We have become a relatively small community. I would also encourage all DMs to simply discuss issues regarding suspected farming or cheating with their players before commencing formal investigations. A brief chat can often address most issues without the need for formal investigations and sanctions under the rules.
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