Creatures!

For toolset tutorials as well as question and answers.
User avatar
Castano
Head Dungeon Master
Posts: 4593
Joined: Wed May 26, 2004 5:42 pm
Location: USA

Re: Creatures!

Post by Castano »

ty ronan. MS's spawns are in a sorry state now, my DMs complaining left and right, we have nearly nothing left after being "campaigned". I'm actually going to restore back all of the old imperfect MS monsters until the creature project gets off the ground.
On playing together: http://www.giantitp.com/articles/tll307 ... 6efFP.html
Useful resource: http://nwn2.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page

On bad governance: "I intend to bring democracy to this nation, and if anybody stands in my way I will crush him and his family."
You're All a Bunch of Damn Hippies
FoamBats4All
Githyanki
Posts: 1289
Joined: Sat Feb 04, 2012 6:00 pm

Re: Creatures!

Post by FoamBats4All »

Castano wrote:ty ronan. MS's spawns are in a sorry state now, my DMs complaining left and right, we have nearly nothing left after being "campaigned". I'm actually going to restore back all of the old imperfect MS monsters until the creature project gets off the ground.
If you could document which mobs are particularly borked we can be sure those get attended to first. As it is I'm going (slowly) through each category, giving PnP abilities/stats as I go. I've done limited AI testing, but have taken steps with other HDMs to get factions standardized to fix some outstanding AI bugs, before moving on to individual AIs.

Dan is at work on new mobs, too, in case any (H)DMs have any requests. Hopefully a couple others can join the project after tomorrow's livestream.

Speaking of the livestream, if anyone interested could post what times they're available, we can schedule a time. I'll do my best to make the stream viewable to those who cannot make it.
User avatar
Ithildur
Dungeon Master
Posts: 3548
Joined: Wed Oct 06, 2004 7:46 am
Location: Best pizza town in the universe
Contact:

Re: Creatures!

Post by Ithildur »

Available US afternoon til late afternoon/early evening most likely (say 3pm est to 6pm est)
Formerly: Aglaril Shaelara, Faerun's unlikeliest Bladesinger
Current main: Ky - something

It’s not the critic who counts...The credit belongs to the man who actually is in the arena, who strives violently, who errs and comes up short again and again...who if he wins, knows the triumph of high achievement, but who if he fails, fails while daring greatly.-T. Roosevelt
danielmn
Fionn In Disguise
Posts: 4678
Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2005 9:08 pm

Re: Creatures!

Post by danielmn »

exactly the time I dm. Go ahead without me, I can catch what I need after.
Swift wrote: Permadeath is only permadeath when the PCs wallet is empty.
Zyrus Meynolt: [Party] For the record, if this somehow blows up in our faces and I die, I want a raise

<Castano>: danielnm - can you blame them?
<danielmn>: Yes,
<danielmn>: Easily.

"And in this twilight....our choices seal our fate"
FoamBats4All
Githyanki
Posts: 1289
Joined: Sat Feb 04, 2012 6:00 pm

Re: Creatures!

Post by FoamBats4All »

Stream went well, thanks to those that showed up and Zelknolf for support info.

Will try to export the video to YouTube for archive viewing.

Edit: Here you go: NWN2 Custom Creature Creation (Stream Recording).
User avatar
Ithildur
Dungeon Master
Posts: 3548
Joined: Wed Oct 06, 2004 7:46 am
Location: Best pizza town in the universe
Contact:

Re: Creatures!

Post by Ithildur »

After some consideration, I will not be contributing to this effort. My reasons are a combination of wanting to focus what free time I do have more on DMing while still playing some, and my fundamental disagreement with Foam on the truncated monster perception ranges.

I'm a very strong believer that mobs acting stupid due to poor AI and poor perception ranges lead to silliness in combat, skewing Challenge Ratings, loss of fun and unavoidable OOC/meta behavior from players (and even DMs by necessity at times). After having observed how players and hostile creatures interact in ALFA from the DM client's perspective, I'm even more firmly convinced now that truncating NPC's perception ranges is a huge mistake. When PC's in full plate can walk up close enough to observe hostiles, stand there and chat about them, walk back if they feel a bit nervous and buff up, etc., all the while the mobs being completely unaware of the PCs, it makes no sense unless the critters are supposed to be blind/deaf in canon. It also makes scouting/stealth types rather useless; in fact I sometimes see people treat careful scouting, which often used to be a matter of life or death in ALFA1 and greatly appreciated by folks, as if it were an unnecessary nuisance (which it is effectively with blind/deaf mobs).

Mobs should, in most cases, match PC perception range, and in some cases even slightly better perception ranges. I feel strongly enough about this that I'd rather spend time elsewhere contributing to ALFA, rather than take part in an effort to standardize perception impaired creatures ALFA-wide before the issue is discussed.

I strongly urge discussion on this issue between the DMA and whoever else influences a decision that will impact every single server in the project eventually.
Last edited by Ithildur on Thu Feb 14, 2013 7:37 am, edited 2 times in total.
Formerly: Aglaril Shaelara, Faerun's unlikeliest Bladesinger
Current main: Ky - something

It’s not the critic who counts...The credit belongs to the man who actually is in the arena, who strives violently, who errs and comes up short again and again...who if he wins, knows the triumph of high achievement, but who if he fails, fails while daring greatly.-T. Roosevelt
FoamBats4All
Githyanki
Posts: 1289
Joined: Sat Feb 04, 2012 6:00 pm

Re: Creatures!

Post by FoamBats4All »

Ithildur wrote:I'd rather spend time elsewhere contributing to ALFA, rather than take part in an effort to standardize creatures ALFA-wide [...]
Fair enough, keep up the good DMing.
Ithildurp wrote:[...] into becoming even more stupid than they are currently.
Not sure where your tone is coming from, or if this is just a misconception somewhere. This project is in no means nerfing mob AI.

As for your other points, you've brought them often lately, and I'll again disagree with your hyperbole. I'm sorry that something has you sounding so frustrated, and that it made you retract your willingness to contribute standard-compliant monsters to the project.
Last edited by FoamBats4All on Thu Feb 14, 2013 7:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Ithildur
Dungeon Master
Posts: 3548
Joined: Wed Oct 06, 2004 7:46 am
Location: Best pizza town in the universe
Contact:

Re: Creatures!

Post by Ithildur »

We do see bugged AI from time to time but that's a separate issue... apologies if mentioning that makes things confusing. The issue I'm bringing up is behavior like that described above which is strictly the result of perception ranges.

The point was accentuated to me recently when I received a tell from a veteran ALFAn after repeatedly seeing this behavior happen in one session, asking me why so many monsters were so dumb compared to ALFA1.
Last edited by Ithildur on Thu Feb 14, 2013 7:15 am, edited 4 times in total.
Formerly: Aglaril Shaelara, Faerun's unlikeliest Bladesinger
Current main: Ky - something

It’s not the critic who counts...The credit belongs to the man who actually is in the arena, who strives violently, who errs and comes up short again and again...who if he wins, knows the triumph of high achievement, but who if he fails, fails while daring greatly.-T. Roosevelt
FoamBats4All
Githyanki
Posts: 1289
Joined: Sat Feb 04, 2012 6:00 pm

Re: Creatures!

Post by FoamBats4All »

Ithildur wrote:We do see bugged AI from time to time but that's a separate issue... apologies if mentioning that makes things confusing. The issue I'm bringing up is behavior like that described above which is a result of perception ranges.
As for your other points, you've brought them often lately, and I'll again disagree with your hyperbole. I'm sorry that something has you sounding so frustrated, and that it made you retract your willingness to contribute standard-compliant monsters to the project.

But that's a topic for another thread. Please start one if you want to discuss it further.
Ronan
Dungeon Master
Posts: 4611
Joined: Sun Feb 20, 2005 9:48 am

Re: Creatures!

Post by Ronan »

The standard Campaign folder p-range is (was? has it been changed?) PC range minus 5 meters. This was to give players some reaction time, especially in areas of dense foliage, as well as simulate some mobs just not always attacking everything on sight. Everyone I've talked to lauded this change from "default" p-ranges; it was probably the single easiest improvement to ALFA.

Animals in particular could probably do with even shorter p-ranges, as well as run-away scripts.

Setting mob p-range to PC-10m (which is the same as "Long") or less is just a recipe for massive farming and the marginalization of real scouts. We've been there; short p-ranges are largely what make z-spawn creatures so ineffective.

Edit: I see some mobs still have "default" perception ranges. That would probably be a bug, easily corrected with a mass update in the toolset.
User avatar
wvincenti
Rust Monster
Posts: 1129
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 5:32 pm
Location: NJ, USA (GMT -5)

Re: Creatures!

Post by wvincenti »

I don't know if this is AI or perception range, but most of the spawns I'm seeing DMs drop and the more recently placed static spawns on TSM don't react much at all. If you bump into a group of beasties standing right next to each other and shoot one with an arrow the one targeted will be aggro'd, but the rest will wait patiently to be attacked instead of jumping into the fray alongside the monster targeted.

Run-away scripts, I loved them on the old Shadowdale server when they were in place. It meant I didn't have to kill or run from every randomly spawning wolf my lad bumped in to. I'd be happy to not have to kill them now.

-Bill
Ronan wrote:The standard Campaign folder p-range is (was? has it been changed?) PC range minus 5 meters. This was to give players some reaction time, especially in areas of dense foliage, as well as simulate some mobs just not always attacking everything on sight. Everyone I've talked to lauded this change from "default" p-ranges; it was probably the single easiest improvement to ALFA.

Animals in particular could probably do with even shorter p-ranges, as well as run-away scripts.

Setting mob p-range to PC-10m (which is the same as "Long") or less is just a recipe for massive farming and the marginalization of real scouts. We've been there; short p-ranges are largely what make z-spawn creatures so ineffective.

Edit: I see some mobs still have "default" perception ranges. That would probably be a bug, easily corrected with a mass update in the toolset.
  • Currently NWN1 ALFA: Ryld Ky'bler
    Currently NWN2: Gwindor Faelivrin, still not actually dead!

    Formerly: Timyin Tim, Glorfindel Inglorion and Beleg Thalionestel amongst others.
User avatar
Castano
Head Dungeon Master
Posts: 4593
Joined: Wed May 26, 2004 5:42 pm
Location: USA

Re: Creatures!

Post by Castano »

We should set perception ranges to whatever DMA says. Since they can be mass updated, if DMA decides [current perception range] sucks, then we will be ordered to change it and can do so easily.
On playing together: http://www.giantitp.com/articles/tll307 ... 6efFP.html
Useful resource: http://nwn2.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page

On bad governance: "I intend to bring democracy to this nation, and if anybody stands in my way I will crush him and his family."
You're All a Bunch of Damn Hippies
FoamBats4All
Githyanki
Posts: 1289
Joined: Sat Feb 04, 2012 6:00 pm

Re: Creatures!

Post by FoamBats4All »

Castano wrote:We should set perception ranges to whatever DMA says. Since they can be mass updated, if DMA decides [current perception range] sucks, then we will be ordered to change it and can do so easily.
Hopefully he doesn't mind me quoting his PM:
Curmudgeon wrote:Thanks. I am in agreement with Ronan that PC-5 should be the default perception range for ALFA mobs. Yes, there are some that are still set to Default, for instance, the TSM base model ogre.
Curmudgeon wrote:[...] creatures with their perception range set = PC will not spawn [...].
Curmudgeon wrote:Unless we can come up with some way around this issue, PC-5 seems to be the maximum perception range we can assign to a creature.
I've changed all Campaign Folder mobs to use "Player - 5m" (45m) perception. Most of them were set to "long" (35m).
Ronan
Dungeon Master
Posts: 4611
Joined: Sun Feb 20, 2005 9:48 am

Re: Creatures!

Post by Ronan »

wvincenti, that sounds like an issue with certain AI scripts not being compiled. It is unrelated to perception ranges.

Its likely that if we made a new p-range entry of 50m, creatures would spawn just fine with it. I didn't do this because mobs can see through trees and environmental objects*, have no reaction time, and tech rezes are far more annoying than full-plated scouts. IIRC Curm agreed. I'm pretty sure we can give a creature a p-range of 100m if we wanted to, though I've not tried.

* With the exception of the areas I got to in BG, I believe all of ALFA uses exclusively environmental objects, even when they're quite large. Environmental objects can be seen and shot through, thus continually pressing the tab key is often the player's only defense against buggy ambush.
User avatar
Ithildur
Dungeon Master
Posts: 3548
Joined: Wed Oct 06, 2004 7:46 am
Location: Best pizza town in the universe
Contact:

Re: Creatures!

Post by Ithildur »

The more extreme silliness I agree will be resolved when mobs across the board no longer have stock NWN2 perception ranges or worse; as we've been finding out on TSM (and with the mobs I've tested on MS) however, in fact there are plenty of mobs currently that have worse than PC -5 range.

I still think there's no reason that PCs should get 5 extra meters of room to stare at mobs and laugh at them; this is a relevant issue as far as creature standardization. I'm fully aware there are some less than ideally designed areas where using the 'target nearest foe' key is the only way to detect the presence of a hostile, but that's what that feature is there for. It's a feature of the game and makes sense mechanically (and ICly); if the creature is within PC perception range and is not stealthed or obscured (or pc rolls well enough on listen/spot to detect stealther) then hitting the target key will reveal the creature even if there's rather unfortunately placed shrubbery or whatnot. In fact that's the only sensible thing to do in those situations, as your PC ICly is aware of the creature per the rules; if the player neglects to use the target function then it's no different than them accidentally mashing the wrong key to attack - if someone got ganked as a result of doing the latter, pretty sure a tech rez would not be granted unless it was painfully obvious something strange was happening (and even then probably not).

In actual gameplay mob perception range being truncated slightly doesn't help much when your screen is obscured by the combination of NWN2's brilliant camera system and obscuring objects like shrubbery; if the view is so obscured that you can't see the mobs without the targeting key and you for whatever reason neglect to use it, you're just as likely walk right into their truncated perception range as not, getting beat up while wondering what's hitting you until you wise up and hit the key or run away into a part of the area that's not as obscured. The only scenario where shortened Perception range would help is if 1. the mobs spawn/walk into Big Silly Shrubbery, 2. are meleers, 3. the PC walks into the mob's perception range while remaining outside of the Big Silly Shrubbery. You have to have all three factors or otherwise the reduced perception range doesn't do squat, and even then, simply tapping the targeting key occasionally while approaching Big Silly Shrubbery will give you a fair chance to have a few seconds to react, which is all that a non stealth PC should get vs mobs that aren't canonically nearsighted.

As for mobs firing through environmental objects I'm more sympathetic to the line of reasoning taken, but in most cases folks aren't going to be helped that much by the shortened perception range; if they get close enough without good stealth they're going to be fired upon, plain and simple. If you get close enough while unstealthed to see the mobs, you fully should expect that they're likely to see you as well and start firing, not standing there picking their noses. I distinctly recall several occasions on TSM where PCs were given tech rezzes because of firing through walls and such, where it really came down to the players rather carelessly strolling way too close to the mobs just on the other side of the objects. Sure, one can argue that ICly the mobs shouldn't be able to see or fire through walls, but by the same token the mobs would make listen checks and position themselves to be able to fire either by climbing to the top of the walls or going around them. It's a pretty simple rule of thumb; if you can see them clearly not obscured ala behind 'solid' walls, you really should fully expect to be seen by them as well (barring stealth) and fired upon accordingly, it's not at all unreasonable or complicated - I honestly remembering being rather surprised at the tech rezzes.

((Now THIS is a separate issue, but I've been thinking about the consensus from most old timers about how un-deadly and kid glove-y ALFA has become... it's really a no brainer why that is, we've adopted a ruleset that is actually less deadly than some other PWs out there. Consider that we have:

the -6 floor/cap
no such thing as death magic/effects effectively ('Inconvenience Living')
PCs always getting the drop vs mobs due to the -5 to -10 or worse nearsightedness
PC's getting max HPs (while mobs have gone from half HPs to max HPs and now on their way back down to half)
traps being extremely rare (and many of the ones that are in not firing/being bugged)

There are other elements as well, but the first 4 are HUGE gamechangers. I'm not saying they're good or bad ideas taken individually, simply that you put those in combination, it's very obvious why ALFA is much less dangerous than it used to be...))
Last edited by Ithildur on Fri Feb 15, 2013 5:37 am, edited 5 times in total.
Formerly: Aglaril Shaelara, Faerun's unlikeliest Bladesinger
Current main: Ky - something

It’s not the critic who counts...The credit belongs to the man who actually is in the arena, who strives violently, who errs and comes up short again and again...who if he wins, knows the triumph of high achievement, but who if he fails, fails while daring greatly.-T. Roosevelt
Locked