Overland Maps

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Do you like overland maps?

Yes
12
46%
No
11
42%
Other (describe in post)
3
12%
 
Total votes: 26

FoamBats4All
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Overland Maps

Post by FoamBats4All »

Simple poll to gauge community opinions. Overland maps: do you love or hate them? If you dislike them, why? If you like them, why?

This should let builders see what to improve upon when it comes to OLMs, or will help them decide to implement one or not.
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Re: Overland Maps

Post by Stormbring3r »

OLM is ok.. But there is nothing to do on them.. If a toon was able to explore great.. But as they are you get failed to fire spawns.. teleported to the wrong area when you actually get a spawn to fire and you leave..
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wvincenti
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Re: Overland Maps

Post by wvincenti »

I'm good with them when they work.
The random wormholes across to the other side of the server are troubling at times, especially at low level.

And yeah, something to do on them would help too, but primarily fix the wormholes.

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Re: Overland Maps

Post by Rumple C »

I voted yes. The one in WHL I like. Being able to blaze your own trail across the moors and avoid certain areas is fantastic.
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Swift
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Re: Overland Maps

Post by Swift »

I was a fan of the old highway areas on TSM over the overland map, but I can see where the overland map has advantages. IIRC they were implemented mainly as a way to save space back when module size was an issue?
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Re: Overland Maps

Post by Dorn »

*begin ramble*

I support overland maps where they are good and provide variety and fun for players. And to do that i think they should:

1 - there is enough permenant content (eg enough towns, and permenant adventure areas)
to justify linking. This would be rather than only a few areas that could be better linked by alternative tools like instanced roadways/grassland etc (instanced being something zelk mentioned about having one very plain map that would appear with different combination of trees/rocks/campsites etc each time it was entered into

2 - where there are interesting random encounters (potentially even a few visable wandering monsters such as the SoZ overland maps) and tailored encounters in certain dangerous areas. All off highways, and all limited in terms of exp and gold to levels <5 or something, and/or spawning to within +/-2 of the party CR to make it challenging rather than a farming opportunity.

3 - where there is 'random content' such as ocasionally spawning caves of dungeons with critters (explained by a mudslide exposing them perhaps?), minor lords citadels that have been sacked by critters who have taken up residence etc. Sort of an pseudo-automated set and forget DM spawn for the OLM?

4 - where there is some dedication in server development to 'open up' the overland walkmesh to allow true overland travel as per WHL rather than walking on highways (must be combined with 1 and 2 or piontless)

5 - if there is a dedicated push to span faerun more completely (worldserver concept currently on hold given ALFA population may not support as of yet)


1 to 3 are elements i'm trying to slwoly in the background do for a version of a WHL and TSM overland map replacement. I say slowly as i'm learning scripting at the same time! I hope that by doing one, others could be done very quickly using the same model so as not to detract builders from building 'full sized' areas. I have not sanction to do this...just for fun. HDMs may have no interest.
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FoamBats4All
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Re: Overland Maps

Post by FoamBats4All »

Dorn wrote: (instanced being something zelk mentioned about having one very plain map that would appear with different combination of trees/rocks/campsites etc each time it was entered into
One note on this:

You can, by using ACR functions, 'instance' areas. This basically makes a copy of an area. Using scripts you can populate the area with different trees/rocks/campsites, sure. Once everyone is gone, you can delete the area.

The only place I know of that does this is Baldur's Gate, with their caravans.
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Curmudgeon
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Re: Overland Maps

Post by Curmudgeon »

FoamBats4All wrote:
Dorn wrote: (instanced being something zelk mentioned about having one very plain map that would appear with different combination of trees/rocks/campsites etc each time it was entered into
One note on this:

You can, by using ACR functions, 'instance' areas. This basically makes a copy of an area. Using scripts you can populate the area with different trees/rocks/campsites, sure. Once everyone is gone, you can delete the area.

The only place I know of that does this is Baldur's Gate, with their caravans.
I'd be very much interested to see some sort of guide to creating Instanced Areas.

TSM's OM areas (locally known as "Travel Areas") could use some fixing to the scripts. They could also use retexturing and rebuilding to be more pleasing visually. Our original intent with them was to make more of the map available for exploration, and add some kind of instanced camping and random encounters.
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FoamBats4All
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Re: Overland Maps

Post by FoamBats4All »

Curmudgeon wrote:
FoamBats4All wrote:
Dorn wrote: (instanced being something zelk mentioned about having one very plain map that would appear with different combination of trees/rocks/campsites etc each time it was entered into
One note on this:

You can, by using ACR functions, 'instance' areas. This basically makes a copy of an area. Using scripts you can populate the area with different trees/rocks/campsites, sure. Once everyone is gone, you can delete the area.

The only place I know of that does this is Baldur's Gate, with their caravans.
I'd be very much interested to see some sort of guide to creating Instanced Areas.

TSM's OM areas (locally known as "Travel Areas") could use some fixing to the scripts. They could also use retexturing and rebuilding to be more pleasing visually. Our original intent with them was to make more of the map available for exploration, and add some kind of instanced camping and random encounters.
There is technical documentation here: http://www.alandfaraway.org/node/2191
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Re: Overland Maps

Post by Ithildur »

Voted 'other'. Agree with most of Dorn's points... an OLM I think done well in theory can be fairly interesting, it's just that TSM's badly needs bug fixes and better implementation and I've not seen anything really compelling yet out there. I've not seen WHL's, SoZ's OC overland map was so so. I've seen a slightly better version in the widely acclaimed White Plume Mountain module from the NWVault but it still wasn't anything to write home about (may depend on player preference), so the jury's out on this for me.
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Adanu
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Re: Overland Maps

Post by Adanu »

Overland maps are good when the primary reason for using them is to save space on traveling maps, and to give a gateway for instanced encounters starting from the map. SOZs variant, slowed down, and tuned for ALFA, would be great.

If you can't make overland maps work for the players (like with TSM), then BGs system of connected roads is better for the stability and utility of it.
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Re: Overland Maps

Post by t-ice »

An overland map and a handful of "generic X" areas are my favorite DM tool. It's just mind-bogglingly OOC that everything interesting in the kingdom happens in the same 5 villages, 20 houses, 20 caves and 20 forest areas. In other words, without the tool of the overland map and generic areas, wherever in the realms I as a DM might take my PCs, one of them has been there 2 days ago. :eew:

You can do "generic X" instances without a map, too, but a map is a great tool to get everyone aboard as to where's this happening.

More technically what Adanu just said:
Adanu wrote: give a gateway for instanced encounters
But "instanced" DMd events.
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Re: Overland Maps

Post by FoamBats4All »

For what it's worth, here is my ideal OLM:

Part 1: The Overland
I love maps that let you get somewhere a bit quicker, with the added chance of random variety. I think that to truly meet our goal of spanding Faerun without making tedious amounts of areas, we need something like an OLM. Furthermore, as T-Ice puts it, it's kind of weird that there are just the same few caves in an entire region.

Ideally the OLM does not have to even span a nation. You can have an OLM for a city, a forest, etc. However, using them in such a manner somewhat diminishes the experience of exploring, and should generally be avoided save for huge cities or areas.

Part 2: Travel on the OLM
With the player reduced on a large abstraction of a region, you can make some fun decisions based on where they walk. Then they are walking over a city (without actually wanting to AT into it), you should slow them down, since they have to go around buildings and the like. When they are on flat, even ground, perhaps they may even get a small speed boost. Going through a swamp or thick forest, however? Well, that'll make your trip take longer. Additional factors such as weather and visibility can also modify this speed.

Part 3: Areas on the OLM
There should be two types of areas on the OLM: static and dynamic. Static areas would be your High Holds, your Rivermoots, your Meteor Lakes, your Winter's Edges. These can have an AT over them to be accessed.

However, with area instancing you can do some pretty cool things with dynamic areas. You can have a host of generic areas -- generic caves, beaches, forests, roads, etc. Then you can draw triggers representing chunks of areas on the OLM. When the user votes to get off the road or triggers an encounter, the area ID in the trigger is looked for. If it can't be found, it searches for the ID of the generic template to use, and makes a copy of that. You can design 3 or 4 road areas, then lay them out as 20 different encounter areas along one road. This keeps the persistence of a PW, but also makes it so not everyone crosses the same 20 meters of road at the same time.

You can do some similar things with almost any type of area: caves, forests, swamps, etc.

Part 4: Encounters on the OLM
Similarly to movement, some areas are just more dangerous than others. Traveling on the road should always be pretty safe, but there's always the chance of bandits or what have you. Take that shortcut near Wendover to get to Rivermoot faster, however, and you may just find yourself cuddling a hungry ghoul more often. Other factors such as weather and time of day can go into adjusting the encounters.

Part 5: Getting Lost
Another fun thing about an OLM could be getting lost. Akin to a random encounter chance, if you're going through a forest you may end up losing yourself, making your travel take longer. When you get lost, you'll be dropped into that location's area (or area instance), ideally in the middle, and you will need to get to the edge of the map (going to any spawns along the way). When you leave, you won't be exactly where you started.

- - - - -

All of these ideas stem from the opinion that an OLM should not restrict movement, but rather make traveling on the OLM interesting. You need to plan your course, think of day/night, weather, what types of monsters canonically lurk in which regions, etc. So long as the OLM is also made to be purdy, they should be just as -- if not more fun -- than linked areas. The nature of even the dynamic content being persistent allows people to learn it, too, and go around poking off the road to see what type of content is where. Want to go exploring? Step off the road, enter a forest, then click the "exit OLM" button to be met with a generic mountainous area that could have entirely different spawns than its cousins.
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Swift
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Re: Overland Maps

Post by Swift »

I do want to implement some of these ideas to make the "off road" parts of the TSM travel map more interesting. I may require some assistance, possibly with some generic outdoor areas, but certainly something I want to work toward.
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Re: Overland Maps

Post by Curmudgeon »

Foam: Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.

Your ideas are very much like the original concept of what a Travel Map should be.

Dorn had been working on a "World Map" server concept until RL caught up with him - the areas I saw were superbly done, but need a good solid scripted foundation.

I'd also like to see hidden areas and secret paths in an OM, similar to the [redacted] on TSM - skill checks required to find the hidden area, etc.
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