XP and GP and HD, oh my!

[dirsa]

what i personally find funny in this whole discussion is -- it's a one ended stick. wealth standards are guidlines if you're under, but out of a sudden they are rules if you're over....

just an observation...

[Rotku]

A false observation.

[Ithildur]

I remember recently asking a dm to downgrade an item to something 3000gp cheaper (and having request granted!)... what was I thinking?

On a serious note though, that was a truly, truly exception moment, and likely possible because I was so severely under the wealth guidelines before receiving the item. I agree with Holly; I remember actually thinking I'd be willing to trade in xp for gold, that's how skewed things were for my pc for the first four lvls. Anytime there was a truly challenging extended dungeon crawl/series of combat events run by a DM, I knew I wouldn't have enough potions and other supplies like scrolls to keep up (unless there was a cleric around) and would be in dire straits unless I could hide behind someone beefier...

I don't think it's a good idea to have pc's not be able to afford lvl appropriate items to help them survive, especially in a dangerous/permadeath world like ALFA. The solution is NOT to coddle PC's with non challenging/non dangerous events constantly while not giving out any rewards aside from xp; the net result is PCs that gain lvls and are expected to handle higher lvl challenges, but cannot because they have the gear of lvl 2's. The proper balance is to provide challenging quests with appropriate rewards that they can then use or sell to outfit themselves to survive such challenges. It's a basic formula and one that the RAW are balanced around.

Throw a CR 3 group of npc's with rusty weapons and leather armor at a lvl 3 party and compare results with the same group outfitted with good equipment, armor, potions, etc and see how huge the difference is.

[Riotnrrd]

A false observation.

Why do you state the observation is false? From what I gather in this thread it seems generally believed that a PC has no 'right' to a certain wealth if they are below the guidelines. It is however absolutely certain that if PCs are over the cutoff limit, action is required to bring them down.

*edit*
I went and consulted the wealth guidelines linked by HEEGZ in the Standards forum. They are as follows (red color added by me for example):

Procedures for Unusual Wealth levels

1. PCs below the Low end could receive up to 1/3 above the standard DM wealth award, at the DMs discretion.
2. PCs in a Warning or Action Condition
1. Notify the PC of their status; give player opportunity to explain their wealth.
2. Go to the Wealth Review forum. If a thread for the PC is not in existence, please create one noting the PCs wealth level and their explanation for their wealth.
3. If there is a pre-existing thread for the PC, please follow any instructions from admin contained therein regarding the PC.
4. Otherwise, the DM should reduce standard awards to the PC. PCs in a Warning Condition should get at most 1/3 of the standard DM wealth award, excepting Uncounted Wealth. PCs in an Action Condition should get no reward.
3. Players with unusually high wealth levels may reduce their counted wealth voluntarily. DMs are advised to make this as IC as possible - PCs buying property, making gifts, etc..

According to this language I note the following:
Item 1: Uses 'could' and 'DM discretion' when speaking of low end wealth.
Item 2, Steps 1-3: Mandatory actions for DMs for PCs above wealth guidelines. Note the lack of conditionals.
Item 2, Step 4: Uses 'should', denoting obligation to correct high end wealth.

I read this to mean that low end corrections are optional, while high end corrections are mandatory. If I'm off base here somehow, please let me know!

Please understand I'm not necessarily advocating a change. I merely wish to point out the rules as they now stand, and offer support for the statement that low end wealth increase is discretionary while high end wealth decrease is mandatory.

I conclude the implication is that high end wealth is somehow more dangerous to our game world than low end wealth. I can only assume the reason for this might be that low end wealth negatively affects a single PC (i.e. death due to unanticipated challenges), whereas high end wealth can negatively affect... other players? The game world? DM events?

[AcadiusLost]

It is however absolutely certain that if PCs are over the cutoff limit, action is required to bring them down.

This is certainly not the intention of the wealth guidelines, nor should it be implied in any way. Quite to the contrary, PCs who are over-wealth for their level tend to fall back more in line with standards with time, if they are not continuing to receive additional significant awards from DMs. (XP increases with time/adventure, making the formula self-correcting if left alone) The initial table had an extra "way, way over" type column for PCs that were ludicrously out of bounds that was supposed to recommend closer investigation (did that player discover a "placed instance" of a 5,000 gp gem that they'd been re-harvesting every mod reset for six months? Did a former DM inadvertently award an item worth >200,000 gp? Or did they just get lucky and find and loot the corpse of a wealthy higher-level PC?). There is certainly nothing I'm aware of that "requires action to bring down" PCs who end up on the high side of the wealth spectrum.

With regards to "entitlement", this is where we get into frustration territory; the wealth guidelines are meant to aid DMs and builders in setting things up such that they don't throw the PW out of whack by wildly over-awarding OR under-awarding. I know from a DM perspective, I certainly wouldn't want to hear "I deserve X, write me a plot to make that happen". The wealth ranges are quite simply DM recommendations as part of a program to help various individual DMs to get on the same page regarding rewards, not a "you can expect to be" or "you are entitled to have" X wealth by Y level sort of thing for players to use to demand swag.

I feel like this thread has made it's point regarding the skew of static rewards at the early levels (XP > GP), perhaps further debate/clarification of PC Wealth guidelines/recommendations/etc can continue in another venue, if people have more to say on the topic? NWN2 brainstorming seems to be the popular place for this sort of thing these days.

[Riotnrrd]

I'm guessing you wrote that response during / before my last edit, AL... upon reading the existing wealth guidelines, do you still interpret correction as optional for high wealth PCs?

[Mulu]

Well, I still remember the discussions with TDawg on the subject. The intent of the wealth guidelines was absolutely to ensure that underwealthed PC's get bigger rewards and overwealthed PC's get smaller rewards, to ensure gameworld balance. It's not about punishment or reward, in fact the guidelines were an attempt to avoid the very suspicion and witchhunting practices that ALFA tends to gravitate towards, and which have already been seen in this thread. Overwealthed? No need to investigate, just reduce future awards. Underwealthed? No need to chastise their playstyle or claim they need to make more IC friends, just increase their rewards.

Simple. Effective. Not Used.

[Mulu]

I should also point out there were other collateral benefits to actually following the guidelines. Treating the players of successful PC's like criminals (suspicion, investigation, punishment) and the players of unsuccessful PC's like losers (ridiculing them for having to reroll or not getting wealth or xp, chastising their playstyle, suggestions they don't know how to play the game) are also player retention issues. This thread already contains examples of both behaviors.

It's also administratively less hassle to just follow the guidelines rather than pursue investigation threads.

Seriously, Wealth and XP Guidelines are your friends! Heck, it's what Standards was created to do, and is probably the only good thing to ever come out of it.

[Mulu]

On a separate note, hyperwealthed PC's, those with extreme wealth, had their own suggested IC treatment. As with any rich individual, a hyperwealthed PC would be noticeably rich.

Suggestions included encouraging the player to have his PC live a more luxurious lifestyle befitting its wealth, buying a house, ship, starting a faction, having servants, fine wines, etc. (BTW, the 1e DMG suggests the same thing). Also, by letting the player know that both the local thieves guild and tax collectors are taking notice of the PC, the situation should resolve itself IC'ly, one way or another.

[johnlewismcleod]

Thank you for those words of wisdom, Mulu

Can we get that stickied somewhere?...it should be required reading, IMO

[Kest]

that is some very fine posting mulu

[Rotku]

It's not about punishment or reward, in fact the guidelines were an attempt to avoid the very suspicion and witchhunting practices that ALFA tends to gravitate towards, and which have already been seen in this thread. Overwealthed? No need to investigate, just reduce future awards. Underwealthed? No need to chastise their playstyle or claim they need to make more IC friends, just increase their rewards.

This is what does happen. I have seen it work quite effectively before.

[psycho_leo]

This is what does happen. I have seen it work quite effectively before.

Perhaps so, but the reverse has also happened and with far greater publicity.

[Rotku]

Meh. Not for a long time.

The biggest time we've had someone over the wealth limit in the last 9 months, a DM approached him and said "Hey, you've got a bit of wealth there. Think we can find an IC reason to lessen it a bit." And he responded "I've always wanted to buy a big house and set up a sort of Adventure Guild" and thus it was solved... well, no, it was solved by him dying the day after, but it would have been solved that way if he hadn't bit it. A way that benefits everyone.

The days of persecuting over-wealthed PCs are long gone. And thank the gods for that.

[danielmn]

*coughs* I suppose it depends on whose in the admin seat of DMA, eh? I recall 9 months before that a big to do about two PC's wealths, completely handled inappropriately. Amazing how much this place has changed in the last year and a half.